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Message |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1985
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 7:30 am: |     |
Jim, where does the Bible state specifically that the 10C's were detached from the 613 laws of Moses? You can't separate them.
In fact, one of our members here not too long ago asked a Jewish Rabbi if and when the 10C's were separated from the rest of the law and he said never.
Don't forget, Passover was a commandment too. Jesus, kept passover. When was that done away with? Or, do you keep that too?
With all the proof texts, SDAism promotes bits and pieces of the Bible, just like they promote keeping bits and pieces of the law.
However, James said,
13.James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
(I don't see where James says the whole law is just the 10 commandments.) |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 256
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 3:24 pm: | |
Jim,
Law nullifies grace. Grace nullifies law. You CANNOT have middle ground between these two
anymore than you can have middle ground between being dead and alive at the same time.
You are either dead or alive you cannot be both.
You CANNOT pay for something that is free…if you do it is no longer free.
Jesus paid the price of ALLLLLLL your sins, past present and future in full.
It is NOT you do all you can and Jesus does the rest.
It is NOT part you and part Jesus.
You can do NOTHING on your own behalf and I mean absolutely NOTHING.
You best effort on your best day is filthy rags.
Do not delude yourself into thinking you can keep one jot of the law.
The law has only two purposes:
1. To increase sin
2. To cause us to cry out for a Savior.
NO ONE has ever kept the law and NO ONE ever will keep the law, except for the LORD JESUS.
The law is NOT there to give you guidelines.
The law is there to condemn and kill you.
It is called the law of sin and death for a reason.
The law cannot help you or protect you…IT IS THE INSTRUMENT OF DEATH NOT LIFE.
If you have ever broken one law, one time ever Jim, you are guilty of the whole law.
Let the law do its work in you, Jim let it kill you.
The only way to be free from the law is to die to it.
If you are dead to the law it has no more power over you.
Salvation is simply acknowledging that you are a sinner and cannot save yourself
and accepting what Jesus did on your behalf.
You do not have to worry about sin it is paid for.
You do not have to worry about law it is fulfilled.
You do not have to worry about what to do next
that is the job of the Holy Spirit to lead you and guide you and counsel you and teach you all things.
All you have to do is REST in Jesus the exact same way that Abraham was asleep when God cut the covenant with him.
SALVATION IS GOD’S WORK NOT YOURS any more than creation is your work not God's
Give God the glory…great things He has done.
Love
handmaiden |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2180
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 5:33 pm: | |
Jim; most of us on here used to be Adventists. None of us would even think of bashing individuals! We love Adventists, but we hate any cult including Adventism - not Adventists; AdventISM!
Have you heard of the OIC (Organization of the Islamic Conference)? They've been repeatedly trying to push a Anti-defamation of religions resolution through the U.N. Their resolution names Islam as the primary religion that they're trying to keep from being defamed. If they managed to get a binding version of the resolution passed, it would be binding on all member nations (including the U.S.) and it would immediately become a crime to say - even in your local church - that Jesus is the only way to be saved!
You see, they're saying that that would defame Islam, because that would be the same as saying that Islam was wrong, and they don't want anyone saying their religion is wrong! Obviously, defaming or bashing a person is wrong, but NOT a religion! That's like saying we can't say injesting poison is evil, because it might be "bashing" the poison! When you say; quote: "The overbashing all things adventist seems to have an aire of cultism all it's own. You may all have many valid points and I am not discounting that. But my instinct is to defend the defenseless," that's like telling people who escaped being drowned in a flood, that they'd better not critisize the flood because you'll defend that poor defensless flood! See how strange that sounds?
There are many evil religions, not just Islam and SDAism. And we shouldn't be afraid to say they are evil. Satanism is evil too and so was Mohammed. Ellen White kept many people out of Heaven because of her diabolical doctrines too. Everybody (well anybody with a reasonable mind) knows that Hitler was evil and it isn't wrong to say so. So why not say that a false prophet who's done untold damage to people's souls is evil too?
Again, it's good to warn people when the bridge is out ahead. It would be nothing short of criminal to refuse to say anything and let the people plunge to their deaths because it might "defame" the person who built the bridge.
Jim; I'd like to address another point you mentioned. You said that you are sure that the sacrificial system was cancelled. The sacrificial system was part of the law and the prophets. Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would pass until ALL was fulfilled. So, Jim, you can't have it both ways. Either ALL was fulfilled or ALL is still in force.
Let's take another look at the verses in question...
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Matthew 5:17-18
So here it is. It's either we have to keep all 613 commands of the Law and the Prophets, because it says "not an iota, not a dot," or it's ALL been fulfilled.
And just a few more things. You said Jesus covers our "lack." No, Jesus covers it ALLLLL. Jesus is the "end of the law for righteousness for all who believe." Romans 10:4. We don't "spin" the Bible. We accept the New Covenant (New Testament) just the way it's written. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1346
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 5:58 pm: | |
All day , I was expected to be blasted.
All of you have surprised me.
I speak often from frustration. BUt through it all , I am trying to get a grip on the essential truths.
I am not hung up on EGW. Yes, many things she wrote have appeared to me to have merit. Yet, many things she wrote I disagreed with from day one many years ago. Still do.
I spent years trying to prove her as true and authentic. With all the explanations in a couple books that defended EGW I was able to give her the benefit of the doubt for more years to stay in the SDA.
Why am I inconclusive about EGW?
It is because , the question of the law has not yet fully cleared itself and so much of her rationale (not prophetic utterances) still rattle around in my thinking process.
When people warn me about truth mingled with error is like poison in one's drink, funny thing, that is the case in every religion there is. No one has error free theology.
But before anyone pounces, yes , I have learned there is such a thing as the gospel. Orthodoxy in the simple gospel. Got it. Grace alone, plus nothing else.
Jesus did command love, but it was not His only command. He made many. He also made many other qualifier statements. As do the apostles in teh NT.
The 10C were written by God. That makes them unique. They were placed in the ark, alone. Unique. Moses writings were outside the ark.
Not so easy to dismiss them.
One of the things that perplexes me is why did God and scripture present such a constant emphasis on obeying the law in the OT for centuries if it was always a set up, and inferior approach.
Why did the world need centuries to realize the law was a set up for death?
We say Jesus fullfilled the law. Fullfilled the law can mean He kept it, made it honorable and set the example. But where I run off the rails is seeing where fullfilling a law ends the law itself. How do we conclude fullfill means cancel and end it alltogether?
Fullfill ususally means , to meet the demand of a debt or obligation, or to complete the requirements of a contract. Maybe that is how we are getting the idea of fullfilling the law.
About bashing.
Perhaps too strong a word. It is hard to hold together even a modicum of self validation when I continiously hear that my entire adult life , all my thinking, all my understanding and everything I was drawn to in my character, my sense of love, joy, peace, kindness , everything, all of it is wring, unreal, not true, false, cultic, corrupted, illusion, and what I am left with is complete emptiness.
Those things that I relate to, they mean nothing.
It leaves me with no frame of home in my mind.
Like sitting on the curb in the dark after your home burned to the ground. When nothing is left, you wait for the sunrise.
Frustration is in every direction, bewilderment, and no place to anchor. Not even a place to rub two valid thoughts together.
Does anyone here get that?
Jim |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1295
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 9:33 pm: | |
Jim,
One thing that I think we all understand is the emptiness, loss, solitude, and even fear of facing the idea that what we so vehemently believed at one time can not be reconciled with Scripture alone. That is why we, who don't agree on everything (take creation for instance) still choose to bind together in community. Because those who have never been there just don't understand how strong these emotions are, how deep these scars go. |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1296
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 9:45 pm: | |
Jim,
You said in your OP that no church has all the answers. I tell you to run fast from any group that claims that they have all, or even most, of the answers. The beauty I have found among real Christian churches is that churches don't pretend that everything is fully and completely answered. We can acknowledge that we have reached some different doctrinal conclusions than our brothers down the street. We can believe that our conclusions are more accurate WITHOUT concluding that the group down the street isn't part of the Church. Churches strive to be accurate without falsely concluding that they are the one True Church, The Remnant Church.
I know it is hard to grasp. But you still see "church" very much in the way we were all taught as SDAs. As you can begin to see it as the Bible teaches it, and most churches practice it, some of these confusions will fade. |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1986
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 10:33 pm: | |
"The 10C were written by God. That makes them unique. They were placed in the ark, alone. Unique. Moses writings were outside the ark.
Not so easy to dismiss them."
Jim, that is an oft used SDA argument to validate the 10 Commandments as eternal. It is not a Biblical argument. Nowhere in scripture does it say that the 10 Commandments are God's eternal law separated from the law of Moses. Basically that argument contends that God's word is not as valid as his handwriting. I would certainly like to tell that to Moses when he saw the burning bush, or better yet, the Jews during that first Passover... |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1349
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 4:36 am: | |
Grace_alone,
I want to cross that bridge to accept that "possible" truth that the 10C have also been included as set aside , ended, obsolete, canbceled, no longer applies. But only if I know it by conviction that it is a truth.
I get oh so close , I am able to reason through the concept and see it's advantages. The problem comes from the circling references, analogy's etc in the Bible itself, teh so called 'proof texts' that I have not been able to detangle , redefine, reapply or spin from their plain words.
The Bible seems to say that while we have grace and all that it teaches, it does not set aside the 10C 'the commandments of God'.
"God forbid, we establish the law"
Ric_b made an interpretation of that passage and it went right over my head as non sequitor.
Left is left, right is right. I cannot interpret plain words into something else. I hope Ric or anyone here can reexplain that single passage for me and show me where in scripture they get the formula. We pounce on proof texts. I do understand that out of context can get us in trouble. But just as often, a simple sentence stands exactly for what it says.
Ric_b , you make an excellent point about NO church is perfect and we should be aware of any church that claims a superior stance, or being the only one. Can you tell me from scripture where that is the instruction regarding churches.
Something that I can anchor that conclusion to?
Thanks,
Jim |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1297
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 5:55 am: | |
Jim,
You have concluded that establishing the Law means applying the Law in a specific manner. Because of this conclusion you have already made, your plain reading of the passage follows your conclusions.
Those who claim to follow the Law make all kinds of excuses as to why their actions aren't really breaking the Law. This is not establishing the Law, it is dismantling the Law. That is exactly what Paul describes in Romans Chapter 2 about the Law. In Romans Chapter 3, Paul discusses what the Law is supposed to do. The Law is supposed to point out that everyone is a sinner. The Law is supposed to close every mouth proclaiming the righteousness of their own actions. Paul says that those who know that the Law does not save are the ones who can truly proclaim (or establish) the message of the Law. That message isn't a popular message, which is why seeker-sensitive churches are so quiet on e subject. But that message, to all non-believers is that they are sinners, condemned to death for their actions by the Law. The only reprieve from that death is not from keeping the Law, but from believing in Christ who kept the Law. For believers, there is no condemnation, instead there is eternal life. The Gospel is meaningless without the Law. So we have to establish the Law in order to preach the Gospel. But we also have to be clear about the role that has been given to the Law. |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1298
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 6:01 am: | |
Jim,
I don't have time today to put together my own study on the subject of church. Here are some online studies.
Make sure to advance through all the pages of this one:
http://www.wels.net/news-events/forward-in-christ/december-2008/invisible-church-bible-study
More to follow |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1299
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 6:08 am: | |
Jim,
Same message from an entirely different perspective:
http://www.biblestudyproject.org/Universal-Church-messianic.htm
Pay attention to the verses that this study cites. While they add lots of commentary, the Bible verses used present a solid study on the subject. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13015
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 10:35 am: | |
Jim, I understand your confusion. In fact, I think we all do. We've so been there...
There comes a point where no amount of explaining will help...until we surrender our right to cognitively understand Scripture. I know it sounds crazy, but only when we're finally willing to give up our right to understand it will the gospel make sense.
Jim, until we're willing to give up trying to reconcile the things that confuse us and instead say, "I don't have to know; I just have to trust that Jesus Himself is ALL I need" and then trust Him to make the theology clear in His own time and way, we'll continue to be crazed by the words of Scripture. I know it sounds repetitive, but Jim--you have to decide (that's a cognitive decision)that you're going to trust that surrendering your life and your mind and your understanding to Jesus is all you need. You have to give up trying to reconcile everything in your head.
When you have come to the place where you actually trust Jesus to be ALL you need even if you never figure it all out, then you will begin to see that Scripture is beginning to make sense. When you know that Jesus is ALL you need, it becomes clear in a powerful way that Scripture is His word, and He reveals Himself in its words. When you start seeing Jesus, not doctrine, as being your foundation, then your brain is freed up to perceive His word according to His Spirit.
Just surrender the struggle, Jim. Tell the Lord Jesus that you can't figure it out, and you're going to trust Him to reveal truth to you. I'm not saying you shouldn't read the studies that Rick has linked above or that you should ignore the explanations we've all given. I'm just saying you have to give up your "right" to figure it out. Rest in Jesus and KNOW that He will give you the mind of Christ when He is ALL you cling to.
When you give up the struggle and throw yourself on the mercy of the Lord Jesus, I know that the things people have said will begin to make sense. And central in all of this is the need to give up the teachings and paradigms that have been all you knew in the past. Yes, it's disorienting. We've all been there. But it's the only way to sanity and peace.
Give it up to Jesus, Jim. He truly is ALL you need.
Colleen |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2182
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 11:29 am: | |
Jim; you said, quote:
"Why did the world need centuries to realize the law was a set up for death?"
The Bible was written IMMEDIATELY after Jesus rose from the dead - not CENTERIES later. It very clearly says that the law is a set up for death.
"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory." 2nd Corinthians 3:7-9
Jim; you said, quote: "I want to cross that bridge to accept that "possible" truth that the 10C have also been included as set aside , ended, obsolete, canbceled, no longer applies. But only if I know it by conviction that it is a truth."
Didn't you read my post where I said, quote: "Let's take another look at the verses in question...
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Matthew 5:17-18
So here it is. It's either we have to keep all 613 commands of the Law and the Prophets, because it says "not an iota, not a dot," or it's ALL been fulfilled."
NOT AN IOTA, NOT A DOT. That's pretty clear. It also says ALL of the Law and the Prophets. That encompasses ALL the Old Testament (Old Covenant) Jim. So either it's all or nothing. There's no halfway - "oh, let's disregard a part we'll call 'ceremonial.'"
The law's just a "tutor" a mirror to show us we're sinners, but once we accept Christ, we're COVERED by His blood, and no matter what; we HAVE BEEN saved. Since people in the cults are taught NOT to accept Jesus - they are taught that "something" is up to them, they cannot accept His finished work; they haven't been saved. Unsaved people do not have the Holy Spirit within, cleaning them from the inside out; so their cult leaders legislate legalism to their members in order that the people have a veneer of "looking good."
Have you wondered why Mormons "love bomb" prospective members and then the "love" suddenly switches off if the propective member leaves? Have you wondered why J.Witnesses go so faithfully door to door marketing their particular brand of poison? It isn't love for God. It's fear that if they don't accumulate "enough" good deeds, they'll be lost. Islam teaches that there will be a scales weighing "good" deeds against "bad" deeds; while the members don't even realize that a person doesn't even have "good" deeds! |
Nowhitehats
Registered user
Username: Nowhitehats
Post Number: 47
Registered: 4-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 3:19 pm: | |
Jim,
Have you considered Hebrews 8:13-9:5 as a text that clearly identifies the tablets of stone (10 commandments) as being a part of the old, obsolete, passing away, covenant?
Here's a link to a post where I shared my view on this passage:
http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/11/11503.html?1310329048#POST151093 |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1653
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 8:37 pm: | |
Jim, you said :"The 10C were written by God. That makes them unique.
They were placed in the ark, alone. Unique. Moses writings were outside
the ark.
Not so easy to dismiss them."
Yes, they were written by God and they were indeed"unique" But.... WHO
were they written for ? When most people (including SDA's) quote the
Ten Commandments they begin their quote with Exodus 3 instead of 2.
That makes a LOT of difference.
Exodus 20:2-4New King James Version (NKJV)
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any
likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the
earth.."beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
You also said :"They were placed in the ark, alone. Unique. Moses
writings were outside the ark. "
But Jim, the Bible says in Hebrews 9 ....starting with verse 3" and
behind the second veil, the part of the
tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden
censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in
which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded,
and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of
glory overshadowing the mercy seat" So Jim, the Ten commandments
"tablets of the covenant" were NOT in the ark ALONE. Also put in there
was the pot of manna and Aarons rod. So does that make those items as
important as the Tablets of the covenant ? and if not, why not since
they were placed inside the ark also. |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 1091
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2011 - 8:01 am: | |
Another thing you must consider, Jim, is that if the 10C's were inside the ark and the rest outside, then how do we know what those 10C's were. They were repeated in the laws that were carried on the outside, incorporated into all the other laws as a whole. True, they are the heart of God's law, but definitely not the whole and only expression of the law. |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1300
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2011 - 5:29 am: | |
Part of this question of 10 commandments versus Mosaic law stems from views of inspiration, IMO. Are the commands from God that are recorded in the Bible any less true or less authoritative than the commands written by God? Do the words that Jesus spoke have more accuracy and authority than the letters that Paul wrote? If we truly believe that all Scripture is God-breathed, then the answer to both of these must be no. But if we believe that the authors of the Bible introduced small error because of their human failings, the we will latch on to some aspects being more accurately inspired than others. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 13021
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2011 - 2:46 pm: | |
Such a good point, Rick. Our SDA background set us up to believe that Scripture isn't really any more reliable that is EGW's work...so it was easy to get from that idea to the notion that what God wrote with His finger was more authoritative than what He spoke.
But in the beginning was the Word...
It was all confusion. God's word is God's word.
Colleen |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2585
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2011 - 4:14 pm: | |
Rick,
I think what you are saying hints at a distressing thing I have witnessed on Facebook discussions with some who have rejected Ellen’s words and now appear intent on dissecting and tearing apart the bible. For some, it looks like once you have abandoned what you once thought of as inspired writings from God, you then have a tendency to keep going and tear apart the real word of God.
Phil |
Trans4mer
Registered user
Username: Trans4mer
Post Number: 13
Registered: 9-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2011 - 10:12 am: | |
Jim, I think that I can personaly relate to how you see the dilemna. We will IMO, always need some sort of 'code' for our conscience I think is what you saying.
What worked for me on this is that the 'code' in the NT is far stricter than the OT e.g. Jesus said of your righteousness doesn't EXCEED the righteousness of the pharasees.... I recall, I think from Morris Venden talking about the adultery 10C law, when he mention a 'survey' of LSU students which showed that they commit adultery about 100 times a day! That's because, if look to lust.... we'ver already done it.
I think it's also interesting to note that the OT code allowed for slaves. Hmmmm, how would that work today? And if I hate my brother without cause, I've killed him already!
And the 'sabbath'? According to Jesus, his example showed we MUST do good on the sabbath. One could certainly understand how this thread could go on and on eh? Well, that's not necessarily a bad thing, heehee!  |
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