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Insearch
Registered user
Username: Insearch
Post Number: 325
Registered: 7-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2011 - 7:57 pm: |     |
I ran across this article today. I have my own opinion, but wondered about the opinions of others.
Is Clapping of Hands Appropriate in Worship?
By T. Pierce Brown
The question was raised primarily in reference to applauding at a baptismal service. The one who asked it remarked that it seemed to him that it was equivalent to saying "Amen" at the end of someone's prayer, and merely indicated approval of what was being done. If it were merely equivalent to taking his hand and saying, "I rejoice in your obedience," I would have no objection to it. However, it involves other significant principles.
Let us examine some and try to arrive at a scriptural answer to the question. When we say "scriptural answer" we do not claim that we know a scripture that deals directly with the question, for if there was an approved example of early Christians doing it, or a command that indicated the propriety of it, we would not need to discuss the matter. If we could find a scripture that said, "Do not clap hands" we would not need to discuss the matter. So we must examine principles and scriptures that deal with broader matters, and strive to make logical application of them.
First, let us look at the assumption that the clapping of hands is no more than simply expressing agreement with a statement or action, as "Amen" might be. When an audience claps and shouts approval of Michael Jackson's performance, would it evidence about the same thing if the audience said, "Amen?"
The basic meaning of "Amen" is "may it be so." It has various nuances in other contexts, but the basic idea is approval of what another has said. The basic purpose of clapping of hands in our society is to show approval of a person's performance, involving his skill or ability.
When a person is baptized properly, it is approved of God and by all subjects of God. When a person prays appropriately, takes the Lord's Supper or sings properly, the same thing is true. Should we applaud at any or all of those times? If not, why?
Note two or three significant things. If a professional singer performs and the audience applauds, they are normally applauding the performance of the musician. Is there anything in God's word that leads one to assume that when a person leads a song, leads a prayer, or preaches in worship, his performance is to be applauded? Is he, or his performance the center of attention? Or should our attention be on the message and the Christ whom the message should exalt?
In fact, if one applauded when a person got through leading a prayer at the Lord's supper and removed the top of the containers of the fruit of the vine, would anyone know whether you were applauding the beautiful way he led the prayer, the superb flourish with which he removed the lid without banging it against the table, or the fact that Jesus died for us? Is either of them the fit subject for applause? Just because you said, "Amen" when he offered the prayer, and approved of what went on, assuming that God also approved of it, would you advocate applause at that point? If the argument about clapping hands being equivalent to saying "amen" were valid, you would. If you had been standing at the foot of the cross when Jesus died, and knew the purpose for which He died, would you have approved of his loving sacrifice? If so, would it have been appropriate for you to applaud as the soldier thrust his spear into the side of our Lord? If you can see why not, it should not be too difficult for you to see why not in the other cases mentioned.
There are other principles involved. The performance of a singer or pianist on the stage is supposed to be a performance which calls attention to the skill or ability of the artist who is performing. Thus, it is appropriate to applaud or withhold applause in terms of how you valued the skill or ability of the performer. That is not true with reference to the act of baptism, preaching, prayer, singing in worship, or waiting on the Lord's Table. If one applauded at a baptism, he might be applauding the skill with which the baptizer put the person under the water without getting himself wet. I saw a person baptize another on one occasion by grabbing him around the throat with both hands and bending him backwards with no other support. I might have applauded the fact that he came up alive without being strangled or choked to death. But my point here is that applause always calls attention to the performers of the act, whatever the act may be. At a baptism, preaching, praying, etc. we should be calling attention to the grace and love of the Savior who authorized those acts. When a preacher is preaching and I say, "Amen," I am not calling attention to the performance of the preacher, but to the message which exalts Christ. When a person is praying, and I say, "Amen" I am not calling attention to the beauty or eloquence of his phraseology, but to the validity and worth of his petition. If I applauded, I would be calling attention to his performance. This is inappropriate, and has no place in an assembly for the worship of God. When a person is baptized, I approve of his action, if it is in obedience to the command of the Lord, who said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). I also approve of the action of the person doing the baptizing, if he is doing it by the authority of Christ, in the way Christ commanded, for the purpose Christ ordained. If applauding by clapping of the hands was nothing more than a way of saying, "I'm glad he did that, for it glorifies God," I would have no objection to it. But since God's word gives no indication that He wants to be glorified in that way, and since that kind of applause is always used to call attention to the performers of the act rather than to God, or the God ordained purpose of the act, I object to it.
If you have thought it appropriate to applaud at a baptism, because you are merely showing gladness or approval of the act, and still think so, then try to give a sound and sensible answer to the question, "At what place in the worship or service of God would you not want to applaud by clapping the hands, since you should approve of every scriptural act?" Should it be done after the songs, after the reading and/or prayer, after the Lord's supper, after the sermon, or any time and every time you feel like rejoicing?
[Editor's note: Showing approval by saying "amen" is specifically authorized by scripture (1 Cor. 14:16). The New Testament contains fifty examples of "amen" being used to solemnly confirm a prayer, blessing, statement of praise or statement of truth. No authorization or example of clapping hands to show approval or for any other purpose is found. R.D.]
http://www.oldpaths.com/archive/brown/t/pierce/1923/applause.html |
Surfy
Registered user
Username: Surfy
Post Number: 763
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2011 - 8:10 pm: | |
Luke 6:23
“REJOICE in that day and LEAP FOR JOY, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.
Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more REJOICING IN HEAVEN over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15:10
In the same way, I tell you, there IS REJOICING in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
It is pretty hard to rejoice without clapping....
Surfy |
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1978
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2011 - 9:12 pm: | |
Psalm 47:1-9 ESV
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. Clap your hands, all peoples! Shout to God with loud songs of joy! For the Lord, the Most High, is to be feared, a great king over all the earth.
Psalm 98:8 ESV
Let the rivers clap their hands; let the hills sing for joy together
Psalm 149:3 ESV
Let them praise his name with dancing, making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!
Psalm 150:1-6 ESV
Praise the Lord! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens! Praise him for his mighty deeds; praise him according to his excellent greatness! Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals! ...
(In His Sanctuary?! Well for Heaven's sake)
Psalm 134:2 ESV
Lift up your hands to the holy place and bless the Lord!
Isaiah 55:12 ESV
“For you shall go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
My SDA's have a real issue with clapping in church. They gossip and grumble about people who clap during worship. I have asked them for Scriptural evidence that sitting quietly in church is the only correct way to worship, but they just shake their heads and admonish me for "not understanding". In reality these people are carrying on a tradition which I'm guessing started during the Victorian era? At any rate, it's a load of crap. Clapping is NOT a sin and there is no reason for it to be discouraged.
Leigh Anne |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 6:29 am: | |
Leigh Anne,
Thanks for pointing out what Scripture does have to say on the subject, something the article carefully avoided. It was deceptive for the article to pretend these didn't exist.
But the article contained another common type of SDA deception used when studying an issue. The whole insertion of a red herring speculative discussion used as the crowning jewel in their position. In this case it was the question of whether you would have clapped as the soldier pierced Christ's side. It was a moot point, we wouldn't have shouted "Amen!" either. We don't rejoice or celebrate His pain and suffering. We rejoice in what these accomplished.
In traditional Christian churches that celebrate the church calendar, the Good Friday service is a very somber, reflective time. In contrast to the greatest of celebration Easter morning. |
Gcfrankie
Registered user
Username: Gcfrankie
Post Number: 822
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 11:04 am: | |
What about when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the ass? The people laid down their cloaks, sang, played instruments and clapped? There is nothing saying Jesus stopped them. |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 945
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 10:44 pm: | |
Wonder what he considers being baptized "properly"?
Brother! |
Free2dance
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Username: Free2dance
Post Number: 467
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 3:47 pm: | |
If you want to know where this idea of sitting quietly in their sanctuary came from, check out their church manual which was updated last fall. It is Ellen G. White who taught how to behave in the sanctuary. Here is a link: <http://www.adventist.org/assets/church_manual_session_minutes_version.pdf>
Here are some quotes on the matter:
"Reverence for the House of Worship—“To the humble, believing soul, the house of God on earth is the gate of heaven. The song of praise, the prayer, the words spoken by Christs representatives, are Gods appointed agencies to prepare a people for the church above, for that loftier worship into which there can enter nothing that defileth.
Teach Children Reverence—“Parents, elevate the standard of Christianity in the minds of your children; help them to weave Jesus into their experience; teach them to have the highest reverence for the house of God and to understand that when they enter the Lords house it should be with hearts that are softened and subdued by such thoughts as these: „God is here; this is His house. I must have pure thoughts and the holiest motives. I must have no pride, envy, jealousy, evil surmising, hatred, or deception in my heart, for I am coming into the presence of the holy God. This is the place where God meets with and blesses His people. The high and holy One who inhabiteth eternity looks upon me, searches my heart, and reads the most secret thoughts and acts of my life.”—5T 494.
Decorum and Quietness in the Place of Worship—“When the worshipers enter the place of meeting, they should do so with decorum, passing quietly to their seats . . . Common talking, whispering, and laughing should not be permitted in the house of worship, either before or after the service. Ardent, active piety should characterize the worshipers.
“If some have to wait a few minutes before the meeting begins, let them maintain a true spirit of devotion by silent meditation, keeping the heart uplifted to God in prayer that the service may be of special benefit to their own hearts and lead to the conviction and conversion of other souls. They should remember that heavenly messengers are in the house . . . If when the people come into the house of worship, they have genuine reverence for the Lord and bear in mind that they are in His presence, there will be a sweet eloquence in silence. The whispering and laughing and talking which might be without sin in a common business place should find no sanction in the house where God is worshiped. The mind should be prepared to hear the word of God, that it may have due weight and suitably impress the heart.”—5T 492.
Reverence in the Place of Worship
"Christians who appreciate Gods omnipotence, His holiness, and His love will always manifest a spirit of deep reverence for God, His Word, and His worship. “Humility and reverence should characterize the deportment of all who come into the presence of God.”— PP 252. We will recognize that “the hour and place of prayer are sacred, because God is there.”—GW 178. We will come to the house of worship, not carelessly, but in the spirit of meditation and prayer, and will avoid unnecessary conversation. As parents we should reverently instruct our children how they should behave in “the house of God” (1 Tim. 3:15). Faithful instruction and discipline of youth at home, Sabbath School, and church regarding reverence for God and His worship will go far in holding their loyalty in afteryears. Pastors who sense the sacredness of Gods service will, by example, instruction, and conduct in the pulpit, foster reverence, simplicity, good order, and decorum in the church."
On the issue of music:
"We should exercise great care in the choice of music in our homes, social gatherings, schools, and churches. Any melody partaking of the nature of jazz, rock, or related hybrid forms or any language expressing foolish or trivial sentiments, will be shunned."
Seriously-- you should really spend some time looking around on their manual. All authority on the issues they address come from EGW with only a little scripture. They even have courtship, dating, marriage ceremonies, entertainment and fashion in their church manual. Sigh... |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 947
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 1:01 pm: | |
"We should exercise great care in the choice of music in our homes, social gatherings, schools, and churches. Any melody partaking of the nature of jazz, rock, or related hybrid forms or any language expressing foolish or trivial sentiments, will be shunned."
Tsk, tsk! Even in social gatherings, you can't listen to jazz or anything with a beat. And, please, NO "related hybrid forms" (whatever THAT means). I think they may need to organize a church committee to hunt down and stamp out "related hybrid music". It sounds dangerous.  Also, since they are shunning anything foolish or trivial in music they need to outlaw that song "Ninety-nine bottles of Loma Linda Boysenberry juice on the wall"! We always had to sing that at camp!
They also need a committee of 'thought police' to make sure members of the congregation aren't thinking any impure, envious, or 'unholy' thoughts. |
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1981
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 1:25 pm: | |
Boy, I hope I don't encounter any "thought police". I'd be busted for sure! LOL
I remember a few years back when there was this push for discouraging and even outlawing contemporary Christian music. I'm not even talking about the stuff churches have these days with guitars and drums, this was the regular old worship team music written from the '80's to the present. One of my in-laws was passing around books on the evils of this music and its "subliminal" themes the devil uses to trick people. Funny thing is, there are a lot of those songs which have been taken directly from the Psalms. |
Joyfulheart
Registered user
Username: Joyfulheart
Post Number: 863
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 9:29 pm: | |
When I applaud at someone's baptism as they come out of the water, it's because:
1. I'm so excited for their taking that step of faith - to say they belong to God and are buried with Christ and resurrected to new life in Him. We're told to be baptized out of obedience and it's truly a special day.
2. That God has by His spirit drawn someone to Him and made salvation possible through Christ's death, burial and resurrection.
I have never thought of applauding the artful skill of the baptizer. |
Insearch
Registered user
Username: Insearch
Post Number: 326
Registered: 7-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 9:41 am: | |
I'd clap and say a strong "Amen!" to all your responses! I'll admit I found the article nauseating... Thanks for sharing! |
Freeatlast
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Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 810
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 9:49 am: | |
Hey hey, my my
"Related Hybrid Music" will never die. |
Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2921
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 5:47 am: | |
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Butterfly_poette
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Username: Butterfly_poette
Post Number: 82
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 5:42 pm: | |
I remember being in the tent for the Primary division at campmeeting. It was 1987. I was told that since we were in Primary, we should no longer make noise to appreciate anyone's performances. We should learn to say "Amen" just like the adults. |
Butterfly_poette
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Username: Butterfly_poette
Post Number: 83
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 5:45 pm: | |
I met up with a fanatical SDA lady. She told me she was disgusted with the then-current youth leader for the conference. He played some lively gospel music at the SDA summer camp. She said it was terrible because the music promoted dancing. We are in the anti-typical Day of Atonement, so we should be in mourning for our sins.
WHY do we need to mourn for sins that Jesus took away? |
Tfelmon
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Username: Tfelmon
Post Number: 48
Registered: 7-2011
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 9:20 am: | |
Why is AMEN the preferred response? Why not clearing our throughts or kissing noise or the word Glory? |
Free2dance
Registered user
Username: Free2dance
Post Number: 473
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 12:46 pm: | |
So much for no related hybrid music. What would EGW say about this?
http://youtu.be/YSlvfgwVWKE |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1983
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 10:17 pm: | |
I always remember 2 Samuel 6 where King David praised God by dancing in his underwear (Risky Business, anyone?). At any rate, his wife Michal ripped on him about it, and you know what happened? Ba-BAM!, God struck her barren.
(Message edited by grace_alone on September 26, 2011) |
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