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Handmaiden
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Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 235
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2011 - 1:30 am: |     |
Where did EGW/SDA get the idea that God is vindicating Himself to man or the universe?
She got that idea from the father of lies and the enemy of our souls. |
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1229
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2011 - 5:24 am: | |
Love your answer handmaiden! Straight to the point. Once you realize that she is not a true prophet, the ultimate source of her inspiration can be only one other being. Her prophetic visions were either from God or the enemy. There is no reason to sugarcoat this. If someone believes the visions are from God, they should be following all of the visions as closely as they can. If not, they should run away as quickly as they can. This is not a place for fence sitting. |
Jim02
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Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1320
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 4:31 pm: | |
Does God's Son, dying on the cross vindicate God's law? Or is it strictly to ransom mankind?
There is a justice effect being satisfied and that I suspect is precisely where SDA get the idea that God is Vindicated in the legal sense.
I asked the question to either disarm the proposition or to clarify where the concept emanates from.
Sometimes it is almost like hearing the church lady, 'is it satan! " |
Asurprise
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Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2136
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 7:15 pm: | |
Jim; the law does not need to need to be vindicated. The law was fulfilled. Jesus died to pay our sin debt and to credit our account with His righteousness.
God did nothing wrong so He did not need to be vindicated. It is God's justice that is satisfied when the sin debt is paid for mankind. Jesus completely paid it!
That "church lady" is right! The idea that God has to be vindicated IS satanic! |
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1240
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 7:41 pm: | |
Jim, Asurprise is 100% correct.
Who could possibly be putting God on trial that would cause Himto need vindication?
What would supposedly happen if somehow God wasn't vindicated?
SDAism elevates the role and power of Satan to match, or nearly match, God. The church lady is right! |
Nowisee
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Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 946
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 10:52 pm: | |
And, I believe, EGW states that the angels will be voting at the end of the "great controversy"...don't remember the quote exactly. When I read it I got the visual of angels punching cards in their individual voting booths! |
Jim02
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Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1322
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 2:48 pm: | |
Sin is not accounted when there is no law.
Sin was in the world before the law.
By the law is the knowledge of sin.
Law seems to be linked with sin.
Sin is linked to law.
If = then
So did God pay the price to justify the penalty of the law. Meaning that the penalty (legal requirement) of the law had to be paid, could not be set aside, could not be revoked, but had to be paid somehow. Christ had to pay the ransom.
If Christ had to die, then the law may in fact be non revocable. That fact that He died is the source of the position that the Law was not cancelable and thus God's law was vindicated in that sense.
Now show me how to undo this knot, which is why I asked in the first place.
You see I have to argue FOR the SDA to get at the answers I need to untie the cords. |
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1249
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 3:03 pm: | |
Certainly Jim. See the start of Romans 7. The Law established with the covenant had to remain in force as long as the party making the covenant lived. By Christ's death on the cross, the demands of the covenant could be legally set aside. Without His death, God would be a covenant breaker. |
Asurprise
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Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2137
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 5:43 pm: | |
Thank-you Ric; 
Jim; I'd like to mention a few things.
Sin is not accounted when there is no law. True.
Sin was in the world before the law. True.
Sin was in the world before the 10 c. That is correct.
There was law before the 10 c. God said not to eat of the fruit.
By the law is the knowledge of sin. True.
The Law seems to be linked with sin. True.
So did God pay the price to justify the penalty of the law? Meaning that the penalty (legal requirement) of the law had to be paid, could not be set aside, could not be revoked, but had to be paid somehow. Christ had to pay the ransom. .…to redeem man. True.
If Christ had to die, then the law may in fact be non-revocable. True.
That fact that He died, is the source of the position that the Law was not cancelable. False. The law was not canceled. The Law is still in effect as a tutor to bring us to Christ. It is still death to the sinner. It still increases sin. The law was fulfilled perfectly in Christ.
The Law is not canceled - we are - we die to the law and it has not more power over us.
Thus God's law was vindicated in that sense. To vindicate means that the law was accused of wrong and then found not guilty.
The law has always been good, holy and righteous but it only produces death.
In order for God to justify the ungodly, He had to satisfy the just requirements of the law. If the law was “canceled” Jesus would not have had to die.
Jesus is the end of the law (Romans 10:3-4) because He does what the law cannot do and that is change us from the inside and clothe us in undeserved and unmerited righteousness. |
Jim02
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Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1324
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 5:58 pm: | |
Asurprise,
I get through the first half of this equation but have trrouble completing the insight.
We read that we died to the law through Christ.
Analogy , a covenant applies only as long as the party involved remains alive.
This is why, if that is the case, then the law has ended for mankind once they accept Christ's sacrifice in their behalf through faith.
The other path is the idea that since the law could not be rescended, it still stands and Christ has paid the penalty in our behalf , past present and future for our failings and incomplete compliance. However, the law itself is the reference to what sin is and is to be reflected upon in the process of growing in grace.
The problem is , if I live responding to the model of the law, not only am I still obligated to keep some manner of sabbath observance, but I am to keep keeping it better and better, and the same effect happens to all the other 9.
Do not steal. At work, don't take a personal call, don't write a note with a company pen, don't charge your phone on the company power outlet, don't walk on the grass.
In other words, ad nauseum in works to be perfect. Living from the law is of itself infinite and impossible to find the end of.
If I live in love, with common sense, discretion, balance, "be not over righteous neither be over wise" if I live in the flow of joy and peace, in the sensibilities of God's spirit, free from guilt trips, legalism and bondage to law, I actually start to see freedom.
Everytime I peek at a SDA explanation in defense of law, including mainliners doing the same but with amendments, you point me back to the law, I am back to legalism.
If you teach me to save the children, have compassion for the poor, help those who cannot help themselves, you teach me how to love.
The SDA say that the law protects and stands.
I see elements of both ideas. I do not know if God grants me to let go completely the law.
If I understood the veil, maybe I could understrand how to decide. |
Asurprise
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Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2140
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 7:33 pm: | |
Jim; you wrote: "...if that is the case, then the law has ended for mankind once they accept Christ's sacrifice in their behalf through faith." That's right! That's exactly right! Romans 10:4 says: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Your focus is to be on Jesus, not your works. First of all, you're not saved BY your works. Second, it's not your job at all to "clean you up." That's ENTIRELY God's job!
Quit peeking at the SDA "god!" That's the "god" of works - reading ingredients on cans in the store to make sure that you're not going to eat lard - making sure you don't think of work or play on Sabbath, etc.
Either it's all of Jesus or none of Jesus - either all the law or none of the law - either all of you or none of you. You don't have to worry about anything after you get saved. Only God can teach you how to love and that comes AFTER you get saved.
But you will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER get it as long as you're looking back at Sodom and Gamora which is what God wants to deliver you from. All you need to do to be delivered is say: "yes, Lord!"
Please don't be like the person described in James 1:8 who keeps going back and forth between SDA and Christian: "he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."
"How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.” 1st Kings 18:21 |
Handmaiden
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Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 236
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 - 9:36 pm: | |
The Blood of Christ is for our heart- to make it clean.
The cross of Christ is for our flesh- to make it dead.
And the Spirit of Christ is for our spirit- to make it alive.
Christ is all sufficient for living the christian life. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12986
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 7:10 pm: | |
Jim, the law is not the eternal identifier of sin. Adam and Eve did not have the law; sin was clear because God clearly identified sin. Adam and Eve acted outside of faith in His word. They knew God, and they knew His desire, but they allowed their own doubts to over rule their confidence in His utter truthfulness and sovereignty.
Adam and Eve lost their lives that day-—they lost their spiritual life. Their bodies remained alive, but their spirits died. Those dead spirits ARE the sin we all inherit. No law can help us overcome that death.
Jim, you asked what the "veil" is. The veil, as described in 2 Corinthians 3, is the "natural man" response: refusal to believe that God is telling the truth. Paul says in that chapter that whenever Moses (the law) is read, a veil covers their hearts, but when anyone turns to Christ, the veil is lifted.
Adam and Eve donned the veil when they allowed themselves to consider the serpent's temptation as worthy of response and discussion. They KNEW God--they knew what He said, and instead of standing on His word and their personal relationship with Him, they actually engaged in doubt and analysis of God's word.
That veil they donned resulted in bequeathing to all of us a naturally dead spirit. We are born without any spiritual connection or intimacy with God. Our natural condition is that we are veiled. We have no natural ability to trust God. We have to receive faith from Him—but we have to be willing to give up our right to analyze and question His word.
The veil on this side of the cross is refusing to believe that Jesus IS the fulfillment of all of the law. The law is not eternal. God is. Jesus is the eternal Son of God, and He, the living Author of the Law, told us in Matthew 5 through7 that He came to fulfill the law. When we place our attention on Him instead of on the law He gave before He was incarnate on earth, how can we be "breaking" the law?
Now that the law has been fulfilled, the only way we can "break" the law is to refuse to believe that Jesus is its fulfillment. When we insist that the shadow—the law—deserves our loyalty and attention in addition to Jesus, we are acting in rebellion and unbelief.
The only way to take off the veil is to receive the Lord Jesus and give up our right to manage our obedience. We have to receive Him and be born of His Spirit. When we are born again, we have the Author of the Law living in us. If we keep refusing to cast our entire trust on Him and keep the law in our rearview mirror, always looking back at it, That is analogous to keeping the photograph of our loved on in our hand at all times—thus making it impossible to freely embrace the actual person whose picture we insist on keeping before us.
I would betray Richard if I insisted on honoring and loving his picture while pushing him to the side and telling him that I want his picture with me because it shows him I love him. He would rightly say, "Hey, I'M HERE!!! Let the picture go!"
And by the way, we do not teach people how to love with real love by teaching one another to care for the sick and poor—as necessary as those things are. We teach people to love by teaching them the gospel. Only when a person realizes they must repent, that no matter how many poor they feed, they cannot please God, can they finally find true love. Only when we repent of our self-absorption and self-centeredness and give up our rights and our identities to the Lord Jesus will we receive His life which gives us the ability to love with His love. That is the only real love in the world: God Himself in us, loving through us as we offer ourselves to Him as living sacrifices.
His resurrection is what gives us our life. When we repent, he reverses at that moment our death sentence, and we pass from death to life. We receive His eternal Spirit who brings our spirits to life.
When we receive His Spirit, the veil is removed. If we look backwards to the law, we begin to confuse ourselves; our clarity about the glory of the Lord Jesus becomes blurred, and we have to, by faith in His sovereignty and inability to lie or fail, believe in Jesus and choose to accept what He says: He has fulfilled the law and is worthy of our complete trust.
Colleen |
Jim02
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Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1327
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 5:59 pm: | |
Colleen,
The veil on this side of the cross is refusing to believe that Jesus IS the fulfillment of all of the law.
J: As you know the debate is over the word fulfillment. As in whether it validates and proves the law to be possible to obey, or to mean that it was finally met in our behalf by Christ.
Is there a passage that says, we could not be expected to keep the law perfectly?
The SDA seem to think we eventually can. I don't think so. But there hangs one of the guilt trips.
C: When we place our attention on Him instead of on the law He gave before He was incarnate on earth, how can we be "breaking" the law?
J: I don't really understand this question.
If I see Christ, I see how He lived, I try to pattern after His example and cannot.
C: And by the way, we do not teach people how to love with real love by teaching one another to care for the sick and poor—as necessary as those things are. We teach people to love by teaching them the gospel.
J: I agree the gospel is vital and foremost.
But I also believe the gospel can reach us in caring for others, which does take our eyes off of self and we see others with the compassion of God's Spirit. When I cry inside over something that breaks my heart, that is not my flesh, it is my soul. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1328
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 6:02 pm: | |
Asurprise,
Second, it's not your job at all to "clean you up." That's ENTIRELY God's job!
J: How do you conclude that as a truth?
A: But you will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER get it as long as you're looking back at Sodom and Gamora which is what God wants to deliver you from. All you need to do to be delivered is say: "yes, Lord!"
J: What do you mean by the analogy Sodom & Gomora? Looking back? Pillar of salt? |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2149
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 9:01 pm: | |
Jim; the whole Bible says that. First of all, you don't have to "clean you up" to get saved. Ephesians 1:13-14 tells us that a person is saved when they believe and Ephesians 2:8-9 tell us that the believer has been saved.
Then AFTER you get saved, the Bible says that "we are His workmanship" Ephesians 2:10 and "He Who began a good work in you will complete it" Philippians 1:6 and that He is able to "keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless." Jude 1:24. Ephesians 5:26-27 says: "so that He might sanctify her, [the church] having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless."
The Bible says that ALL our righteousnesses are like filthy rags" Isaiah 64:6, so no matter how we try to "be good" and "clean ourselves up," it's like taking handfuls of dirt to try to clean the dirt off our faces.
Lot settled in Sodom because it looked like a good place to live. God rescued him out of there and he lost everything in the process. God has rescued you out of two cults. Don't go back to them! Don't keep reading Ellen White and studying Adventist web sites. |
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1263
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 10:14 pm: | |
Jim,
Asurprise has a great point that it isn't your responsibility to get cleaned up enough to be saved. The Bible says we are dead in our trespasses, not dirt covered.
In the parable of the prodiagal son, what did the son have to say and do to convince his father to take him back?
When did Jesus talk to the woman at the well about living water?
Did the woman caught in adultery clean up her act before Jesus saved her from death?
Did the tax collector re- pay people so he could be saved, or in response to having been saved?
Did Saul/Paul clean up his act and stop persecuting the church so that he could become saved?
The truth is that we can not clean ourselves up in the slightest. If we could clean ourselves, would the blood of Christ be necessary? |
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1264
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 10:23 pm: | |
Jim,
Gal 3:10-11 are very clear that no one can keep the law. All who try to achieve justification through the law are under a curse for breaking it. Not some, many, or most who try. All who try are under a curse for failing. Seems clear to me.
I don't know of any context where the term fulfilled would mean to prove that others could do this. If I fulfilled my contract, what would it mean? The SDA argument simply doesn't make any sense in plain use of language. |
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1265
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 10:38 pm: | |
Jim,
Rules (Laws) can never create love, at best they can only create the appearance of love.
What rules could you write that if I followed all of them would cause me to love a woman/wife?
Could I follow every rule you could list and still not have an ounce of love in my heart for the woman?
This is the story of what the Old Covenant could never do, but is the essence of the New Covenant. God changes hearts. He puts the love in our hearts, not with new and better rules but with a new birth. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12990
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 1:08 am: | |
Jim, it's just essential that you allow Scripture to teach you and to surrender the way you understand the words. The Holy Spirit interprets Scripture to us when we surrender what we've been taught and ask God to teach us what He really said.
But you have to be willing to give up what you "know". You have to allow Scripture to teach you without continuing to pit your old arguments in your head against the words.
EGW did a number on us. I believe we all have to surrender our worldview and humbly ask God to teach us what is real, letting Scripture reveal reality. Truth is not in our heads. It's in God's word. We can't keep arguing and keeping our analysis as the judge of what we read.
Colleen |
Asurprise
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Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 2151
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 11:16 am: | |
Jim; keep asking your questions!
I've noticed that I myself, struggle with legalism from time to time and your questions cause me to dig into the Word and see that it's true, it's really true that Jesus did it all and that it's a free gift and also that there isn't anything I can do to help save myself or help keep myself saved! God does it all!
Like Colleen said, Ellen White did a number on us! So keep asking your questions. I think a lot of us need the truth of the free gift of salvation presented to us again and again. I know I do! I was an Adventist for over fifty years and their teachings really got stuck in my mind!
If you look at the various cults: Catholicism boldly says they include "tradition" in their beliefs. J.Witnesses have their own "translation." Mormons have their own books by their prophet and cast doubt on the Bible. SDAs "seem" to accept the Bible, but they really don't. They accept Ellen White's "interpretation" of everything. Have you noticed that Adventist pastors don't preach THROUGH the Bible? No, they hop all over the Bible and Ellen White's writings! So, I think the SDA religion is one of the most deceptive. |
Handmaiden
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Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 247
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 8:22 pm: | |
Dear Jim,
It is not about you. It is not about us. It is allll about HIM.
Do not focus on the law and do not focus on what you have to do or not do, focus on JESUS.
It is allllll about HIM.
He delights to save YOU.
God’s delight is in the Deliverance of His People. Zephaniah 3:17
17) The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty One who will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness;
He will quiet you by His love; He will exult over you with loud singing.”
God delights in saving His people. It brings Him pleasure to rescue us from our suffering and pain and bring us to Him.
This is one of the primary reasons He sent His Son to die on the cross for our sins because He had a great delight in saving us. He desires to bring salvation to us.
2 Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU JIM, not wishing that YOU should perish, but that YOU should reach repentance.”
He does not wish that YOU would perish but that YOU would come to repentance. It is His delight for YOU to come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 says, “This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Our salvation is something that is good and pleasing in God’s sight. He desires that we be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, which is the knowledge of His Son.
Jeremiah 32:41 says, “I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all My heart and all My soul.”
God rejoices in doing good to us. The greatest good that we can receive is salvation from the sins and suffering of this world.
It is easy to overlook this simple truth. We think of Christ dying on the cross for our sins as an obligation Christ fulfilled rather than a delight.
He loves you Jim. He does not want you to perish.
He delights in saving you. You are very precious to Him...He poured out His life's blood for you.
He already knows everything about you NOW. You cannot disapoint Him in the future, there is nothing you can do that He does not already know. He knows your heart, your thoughts, your motivations, EVERYHING, there is to know about you, even your future sins and failings, He knows these tooo. You cannot surprise Him with your future sins. He has no desire for you to lose your salvation or be cast out. He loves you. Come to Him now. Leave it all in His hands, your past, your present and your future. He has redeemed it all. For the joy of your salvation He endured the cross.
love
handmaiden |
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1275
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 9:45 pm: | |
That was a beautiful and touching post handmaiden. Thank you! |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 249
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 11:46 am: | |
We have a beautiful and loving Saviour. He has touched my heart.
To know Him is to love Him.
He is NOTHING like the god of the cults .. angry, judgmental and demanding.
Our God asks nothing of us...REALLY
He truly delights to restore us, heal us, redeem us.
He is slow to anger, long suffering and patient waiting for us to SEE HIM, as He really is.
God is pure love and HE LOVES ME/YOU with a genuinely sacrificial heart.
It cost Him everything to bring me home and He was overjoyed to it.
i was afar off and He came for me.
i was His enemy and He reconciled me.
i was a sinner and He cleansed me.
i was wounded and He healed me.
i was fatherless and He adopted me.
i was dead and He gave His life for me.
HE IS EVERYTHING TO ME.
I LOVE THE ONE, WHO FIRST LOVED ME.
In all the universe, truly there is NONE like HIM.
To KNOW Him is to LOVE Him.
i pray above all things that you would draw near to Him and know the One, Who knows you best, warts and all and loves you most. Taste and see that the Lord is good, full of mercy and compassion and He delights in YOU.
Love
handmaiden |
Jim02
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Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1332
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 7:19 am: | |
I'm trying........ |
Handmaiden
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Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 261
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2011 - 4:16 pm: | |
Jim,
There is nothing for you to do but let go of all the questions and worries and fears and circles and mental gymnastics...simply let go and let God catch you.
Let God save you.
Surrender your need to know and trust in Jesus.
He has not lost one, who has trusted in Him and He will not lose you.
Faith is letting go of everything that we "think" or "believe" we can do or try and falling into the hands of Jesus.
love
handmaiden |
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