| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1264 Registered: 5-2007 |
Early this morning , I tuned my radio to Turning Point to resume listening to a series on the Law and Grace. So far so good....... Then a few minutes later; I was watching Pastor Joseph Prince on TV. He was speaking about the Law vs. Grace. I was with him , doing ok, then he used this metaphor. He said that the law is a mirror. It can't fix the problem (in so many words) but it detects or shows us sin. This is an example where things go haywire in trying to reconcile the thought lines between law and grace. If the law (in this context , the Ten ) is our mirror, then all 10 are reflective indicators. Right back to square one. Looking at Romans: Do we then make void the law through faith (or the exercise of grace)? God forbids it. We instead aim to establish (confirm, observe, validate) the law. In 2Cor3 Paul subdivides the law and points out the letter of the law engraved on tablets of stone. Here he is targeting the 10. (Ministry of death.) Now grant you Paul does speak globally regarding the law in the general sense. But here and in other pasages he alludes to the 10. From what I gather, they debated endlessly about the 10c, the rites and festivals, but it seems the question of sacrifice was not an issue. The trouble I have with studyng Paul's writings is that he seems to want to be free from the law, yet keeps using the law to reflect his points. I get so close to being able to release my reference to the law and set my mind ahead on the concepts of grace expressed in love, mercy, acceptance and free from the burden of a check list existance. But when any analogy points me back to looking at the law as a tutor, a mirror, an example, a test, then it becomes it's own measure and the yoke is back. If I look the other way and see The Spirit, I am am able to grasp most of what grace is about. I think the SDA are seeing the mirror as an active function , and that the 10C is the perpetual measure, it's content including the 4th. This is the problem. If I am free from the law and there is no condemnation. Then let that be clear and sure. But if there be mirrors and measures, then the law continues. In one frame of mind I embrace freedom from the law. In the other, I consider that the law is the aim and grace is about getting to that objective while being covered by Christ all along the path towards growth. Either concpet is plausible. What drives me to despair is I still cannot confirm which one is correct. If I can be grafted out, then grace is conditional along with those lists of folks who won't be included. Try as I might, I cannot get these concepts, of which all are stated in the NT, to merge. Here is the hope I have. Just being able to have conviction of which is right, and then step forward in faith and follow that path and that church. This is not about what EGW is saying or defining for me. This is about what I am reading and I am doing my best to not filter, but see it for what it says. Including not spinning it or redefining it. I will never be free from the law if I cannot understand the new covenant truth. I will never be free from mainline error if I cannot understand the new covenant truth. Without this understanding, I do not understand what path to take. Jim | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 238 Registered: 10-2009  |
The Word says that "the Law was to be a tutor until Christ." The Law does reflect how horrible we are and how incapable we are to keep it's statutes. It also points us to the one who perfectly fulfilled the Law. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Who "died under the Law to redeem us from the Law". When we take communion we are told not to Remember the Law...but to Remember Him (Jesus). The Wine represents the New Covenant which is fulfilled in His blood. When we enter that Rest, when we are Born from Heaven we enter into the New Covenant by His blood. We are of the Law of the Spirit...and not the Law of the letter. We are a NEW CREATION. Ross | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2065 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; the law's purpose IS to show us our sin and to kill us. You keep thinking it's the same literal ten though. Show me where the new covenant (which is the New Testament) says that we need to keep a day. And don't quote from the gospels either because the new covenant took place at Jesus' death. It says this in Hebrews 9:15-17. We cannot be grafted out, once we're grafted in. Otherwise 1st John 5:13 wouldn't say that we can know we have eternal life, because we wouldn't. Eternal life that can be lost isn't eternal. And Ephesians 2:8,9 (also 2nd Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5) wouldn't be able to say what they do, that the believer has been saved, because it wouldn't be true if a believer could lose it. 9 of the 10 Old Covenant commands are repeated in the New Covenant, but not the 4th. So instead of the 4th being the most brightly lit like Ellen White says; Romans 14:5 says it doesn't matter whether someone esteems one day above another and Colossians 2:16-17 says that all three groupings of Sabbaths are shadows of Jesus. And Deuteronomy 5:3 says that God made the Old Covenant with Israel, not with their forefathers; despite Adventist's claiming that the 10 were from forever. (Deuteronomy 4:13, Exodus 34:28 and some other verses show that the Old Covenant WAS the 10 commandments.) Galatians 3:17-19 says that the law came 430 years after Abraham and went until Jesus came. So Jim; the question is: What is the law in the New Covenant? Is a person saved or lost by keeping it or not keeping it? My answer is to read the New Testament (Covenant) to see what laws are repeated. Actually that's not good enough. 2nd Corinthians 3:7,8 says that we are now in the Ministry of the Spirit! So when a person gets saved - and yes the Bible over and over says that believers get saved - they are filled with the Spirit. They are then permanently saved, no matter what! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2066 Registered: 7-2007 |
And a believer doesn't need a bit of legalism to keep him on the "straight and narrow." Have you noticed the behavior and countenance of someone who's trying to "keep" all the commands they think they're supposed to keep? They have this air of discouragement and bitterness about them. Have you noticed that? (I remember seeing that a lot at the SDA campmeeting in the Redwoods in Northern California. I was an SDA back then. Now, as I look back, my heart goes out to such people. I feel so bad for them! And for all the people in the cults! Whether Muslim or Roman Catholic or SDA. They all think that some part of salvation is up to them.  ) By contrast have you noticed the behavior of a saved person? How they are relaxed and joyful and there's this kind of glow that comes from them? Oh, they aren't sinless. They mess up. But they're saved and the Holy Spirit is at work in them! | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 557 Registered: 5-2009  |
Does this verse help at all? 8 We know that the law is good when used correctly. 9 For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders. 10 The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders,[c] liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching 11 that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God. 1 Timothy 1 | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 122 Registered: 2-2011 |
~JIM02~ I want to add this to the discussion~It is a passage of scripture found in Galatians 3:10-13.When you read these verses it is very clear that a person who tries to depend on the Law for salvation are under a CURSE~ actually, accursed & doomed to eternal punishment, because no one can live out the Law perfectly~ Only Jesus Christ did this~ Christ purchased our freedom from the CURSE of the Law and its condemnation~Our believing in Jesus Christ gives us GRACE~ The choice is clear~Believe on Jesus Christ's FINISHED Work on the cross& be SAVED FOREVER(OR)~ live under the Law with a CURSE and suffer the wrath of Almighty GOD~ Because you could not keep it! ~mj~ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12902 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, the law is a mirror showing those who are not saved that they are sinful. "The law came in so that the transgression should increase" (Rom. 5:20). Once we are born again, we no longer need the function of the law. We have Jesus in us, and His Spirit convicts us of what we need to do. Paul's arguments for the law were not for the purpose of telling born again believers "how to use it". He was explaining why God gave it and showing that now, since Jesus came, the old functions of the law have been fulfilled in Jesus and are being carried out in our lives by Him. John 16:8-15 states that now it is the Holy Spirit [not the law] who convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. All the functions of the law were fulfilled in Christ. Jim, here's my suggestion: Why don't you get a brand-new notebook and begin literally copying the book of Romans, word for word, praying that God will teach you what He wants you to know. As you deal with the entire book sequentially, word by word, I think a whole lot of things will begin to come into focus. it can take you all the time you need, but do a bit every day. Praying for you, Colleen | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 558 Registered: 5-2009 |
That is an awesome suggestion, Colleen. I may try that myself...with a smaller book like Titus. ;) I think part of the problem is that in Adventism we were told that we don't keep the law to be saved, but we keep it out of love. So, even though we aren't bound to the law like the Israelites were, we are still supposed to keep it because of what Jesus did for us and because God set these things up as His standard...so they are still good things to do... It's a hard loop to jump out of. Afterall, this is how they quoted Romans 7:6: "But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of LIVING BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW." So, an Adventist would tell you, "the law is still applicable, but just don't be legalistic about it" (which excuses them from the ones they don't see are applicable to our modern life). Here's what the verse actually says: "But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit." Living in the Spirit makes no sense until you surrender. | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 476 Registered: 1-2007  |
Jim, in 2 Cor 3 18 Paul says that we are with unveiled faces,looking as in a MIRROR at the GLORY OF THE LORD and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is the from the Lord who is the Spirit If looking at the Lord in the new covenant age transforms us into the same image, one must deduce that looking at the old covenant law which is the ministration of death engraved on stones (2 Cor 3)transformed us into that image which equals death. This is why Paul was able to state "that he was alive once until the commandment came and sin sprang to life and he died, the commandment that was meant for life became death." Looking at the law, specifically the 10 commandments will only spring sin to life and effectively produce death in us. Looking at the Lord (Jesus) will transform us into the same image of glory. You cannot have both one equals death, the other equals life. No matter how you put it, twist it, say it, trying to keep the law (10 words engraved on stone) will only equal death. Law increases sin in man, it effectively brings sin alive within us. Paul | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1266 Registered: 5-2007 |
On the surface of the question, why was the law given in the first place? Aside from being a tutor and a mirror, it pointed towards our Saviour. Sometimes , I am perplexed why God put mankind (the Hebrews) through all those centuries of trying to keep the law , when afterall , it was a ministry of death. It seems like man fell into a trap by their arrogance and their stupidity thinking they could keep it. Then as in all legalism, we keep adding details. Over 600 . Not to mention the customs we do not even know about, including the SDA customs. I admit I am hung up about the Sabbath question because I have not found any direct command to end it. Other than Paul's writing about it not being something to be judged over. I also note that it is not recorded as being mandated in the cannon. I just do not understand why it was not specifically countermanded plainly in scripture. Is this a set up of a new sort? The Jews readily agreed to the law, over confidence, and I (former SDA) am afraid to stop the law fearing yet another trap. I have a lot of trouble knowing what line of reasoning to trust. Colleen, I have been thinking the same thing about writing it out. That may help. I will continue to study and pray about this. Thank You All, Jim | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2070 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; it WAS countermanded in scripture. 1. It was part of the 10c which was the Old Covenant and was not given before it was given to Israel. As you can see, the Sabbath STARTED with Israel. Deuteronomy 4:13 says: "And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone." Deuteronomy 5:3 says: "Not with our fathers did the LORD make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today." 2. Galatians 3:16-19 says that the law came 430 years AFTER Abraham and was to go until Christ. 3. Hebrews 8:13 says that the Old Covenant is obsolete. Hebrews 9:15-17 says that Jesus' death brought in the New one. Read the New Covenant for yourself. It doesn't include the Sabbath day. Now the Sabbath is Jesus. | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 106 Registered: 5-2011 |
Jim, have you ever done the study called the Ultimate Rest on the web site: www.gentlybroken.com I know for myself I found that to be an excellent study about the Sabbath, Old Covenant, New Covenant. It was written by a sixth generation SDA who is a physician. She was completely educated thru the SDA system and also held some prominent positions in the SDA church while an SDA....so she really knows SDAism. lynn | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1272 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, What verses would you say are the New Coventant? Hi Lynn, No I have not , Thanks for the link. I will look that up. Jim | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2075 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; The New Covenant is from Acts onward in the Bible. Hebrews 9:15-17 says: "Therefore He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive." Here's some verses that destroy two Adventist doctrines... 1. That a believer is sanctified (set apart to the Lord AFTER the believer has been saved) ONCE FOR ALL! Adventists believe that the Atonement comes in two phases, but the Atonement is complete! 2. That Jesus sat down [past tense when Hebrews was written] at the right hand of God. Since wherever God is, would be the Holiest place in Heaven, that means that Jesus went into the Most Holy Place in Heaven WAY before 1844! Hebrews 10:9-14 says: "...He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 132 Registered: 2-2011 |
~AMEN~!!! Asuprise~ It could not be any plainer or more straight-forward than this! ~mj~ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12911 Registered: 12-2003 |
Also, Jim, 2 Corinthians 3. Paul compares the covenant on stone with the new one of the Spirit. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2077 Registered: 7-2007 |
Oops, I said "two Adventist doctrines", but under #1, I put "That a believer is sanctified...once for all." That's what the Bible teaches. What Adventists teach is what I wrote on the line just underneath that. That Adventists believe that the Atonement comes in two phases. That's why they don't believe they can be saved when they "become" a Christian. (I put "become" in quotes, because they don't become one if they don't completely accept Jesus sacrifice in their behalf.) They believe that they have to wait until Jesus finishes up the "investigative judgement" before they can know. In fact, they don't believe they can know until almost the moment Jesus comes back! I wonder what they would think if they really dug into all those verses (such as Eph. 2:8,9; 2nd Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) that say a believer HAS BEEN SAVED. If they did, they would either realize that the SDA church is wrong or they would think, like the Muslims, that God keeps changing His mind; and that when Ellen White came along, He decided He didn't want salvation to be a free gift after all..... | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1275 Registered: 5-2007 |
I was more familiar with the teaching on investigative judgement about 20 years ago, but never really went beyond , OK , must be true. It tied every other SDA teaching together in regards to sanctification and works. Another example of having to deconstruct. |
