| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1244 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen , I have noted that you have mentioned that some formers become agnostic. This troubles me , and I know in some ways , I appear to be at risk for that. I have asked myself why this might happen to people. From my own experience it is because of disillusionment. A loss of bearings, resentment, feeling like you were duped or not protected from error when all along you thought you were being protected from error. You find yourself having extreme difficulty in sorting through the confusions, the mistakes and bias. Then you start searching for a paradigm, a corrected belief system and that takes time too. Some things are deeply entrenched, some things feel ripped away, disapointment. It's a big ball of perplexity. This kind of situation wears people out, and if they become agnostic, maybe they just got lost in the wilderness of confusion. When you cannot even trust your best efforts to understand even the basics, you drift. Agnosticism is a condition more than a decision. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 94 Registered: 2-2011 |
~YES~Jim02~it is a "ball of perplexity"~ but worth whatever it takes to unravel~there is so much in that ball as you stated, but for me, it was So 'worth it' to unravel the ball "one string at a time"! it does not happen all at once, but if you are surrendered to the task, when the ball is no longer a ball, but a pile of yarn, THEN you can weave a new quilt with JESUS as the "TRUTH" in the center! How GREAT is that? ~*~mj~*~ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12879 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, Jim--when people are raised on a false gospel and told it is true, that, for example, one day of worship is the mark of being saved and all others are deceivers and Babylon—and then one finds that their foundations were wrong, there's nowhere for them to go. If their Sabbath-truth isn't truth, then nothing is truth. Adventism sets people up for agnosticism because they state that there is no other Sabbath day in Scripture except the seventh. Those who worship on the first day, for example, are worshiping on a "false sabbath". Since it is obvious that the Bible never declares another day holy, the disillusioned ones have all trust ripped away and refuse to worship elsewhere. They may know that Adventism doesn't work for them, but they KNOW Sunday isn't holy...so they have no place to go. They often do not take the trouble to discover what the Bible declares to be the truth about Jesus and salvation. Without Jesus and His finished work, there is no "better place". Only Jesus will do as a refuge and "landing spot". Jesus alone is the answer. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1246 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, with few exceptions, mainline churches model the 10 C erroneously. I have even heard the phrase we keep the Lords day in view of the 4th commandment to rest one day in 7. Etc.. Nowhere to go is because there is nothing but more confusion between the churches of 'mainline orthodoxy - truth' I have studied several mainliner teachings on grace who do not even practice what they teach because they too 'add to it' with 10C models. And no one can seem to figure out what we are accountable for when it comes to sin. In my case I do not call it agnosticism, I call it babylon. I agree , Jesus is our refuge. As I said before. The truth is somewhere between the two camps. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1247 Registered: 5-2007 |
Reading only from the Scriptures is not an answer either. Not completely. Because it is through the reading of scriptures that my questions arise. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2056 Registered: 7-2007 |
A person who "KEEPS" Sunday is an Adventist-waiting-to-happen. Jesus is our Sabbath rest now. Check it out in Colossians 2:16-17. I have a relative who left the SDA church and became an Agnostic; but I have a suspicion as to why. He got a divorce at the same time, and not for any "real" reason. (His wife didn't cheat or leave him or anything.) So I don't think it was because he was convinced that the SDA church was false. In my case, I found out that Ellen White contradicted the Bible and then I found out that the Bible contradicted the WHOLE SDA church. Finding that out simply showed me that the SDA church was wrong. Jim; there are hundreds of prophecies that foretell Jesus. When you check them out you can clearly see that the Bible is true! Even the New Testament (which means "new covenant," BTW) proves the truth of the Bible. Most of the apostles and early Christians were martyred and some died horribly! A person will die for what he believes to be true, but a person won't die for something they know to be a lie. The apostles saw Jesus' miracles and they saw him after He rose from the dead. They knew whether or not, Jesus was really the Messiah and God! And they died martyrs deaths! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7478 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: And no one can seem to figure out what we are accountable for when it comes to sin. The sin of unbelief is exactly what we are accountable for. Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. There are a lot of people have figured THAT out. | ||
| Thegoldenway Registered user Username: Thegoldenway Post Number: 87 Registered: 5-2011 |
Johm 16:8, 9 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment; of sin because they do not believe in Me....." the world's sin is unbelief. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1248 Registered: 5-2007 |
The SDA argue that the ceremonial Sabbaths were ended at the cross along with festivals and other cermonial laws that were a shadow. Now I have read the lessons on how the sequence of Year, month, week sabbaths are included. So, on this point I am right in the middle as inconclusive for either argument. What bothers me is when Paul refers to Honor Father and Mother, as 1st commandment w a promise. Thus setting the precedent or continuing relevance of the 10c. It is not so much that I am trying to hang onto a law system, it is that I cannot lock down walking away from the 10C without a clear command from God. God spoke it , God wrote it. It evolves arpund presumption to rely on my supposed understanding that the 10C has been deleted, canceled. The NC method of the Spirit and Grace seem to point to the same objective as the 10C. All 10. Unbelief, how do I decipher that as a motive of sin when it is mixed both with confusion and a strong sense of not understanding a countermanded order. If Paul was more clear, perhaps it would be easier to conclude the countermanded order. But , he seems to preserve the law against all forms of presumption and license. "We establish "THE LAW". He writes and I follow right up to freedom, then he snatches it back. Mind you, I do not keep the Sabbath, I just observe the guilt trips. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 106 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Jim02~ May I respectfully suggest that you read the latest article in Proclamation magazine where Colleen has researched and writes answers to your very question~Also, find there all of the magazines with articles by knowledgeable writers that are archived~ Somehow I think you know where to find this information~I pray you will use it~ ~*~mj~*~ | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1249 Registered: 5-2007 |
mj I am currently reading this issue and am half way through Colleens article on the GC. Meanwhile, I am also reading three other books (concurrently) My Bible, Topical Bible and have a stack of Proclamations I have already read, Daily Morning Sermons on TV and Christian Radio during commute. Hopefully, somewhere in all this reading, It will come together. I may seem like I am being obstinate, the fact is, I am trying to match up the models people have explained as truth to verify if they merge with the bible. The constant issue is , both camps ignore the other positions strong points. Both have good positions, and yet, hanging out there are these conflicts that are unaccounted for. When I have read SDA material, it more often comes across as well thought out and clear. Though in these studies with this forum and mainline studies , I have seen many things I did not realize before. But as in all debates. There are two sides of every story. Invaribly, when someone bashes the other, when you hear the other side, it changes the perception and the benefit of the doubt applies. That is how it is with many of the accusations against the SDA. Some are valid, some are over generalized and exagerated. I am on the fence. I admitt that. Nor have I pretended otherwise. I am caught in the middle between two belief systems and trying to figure out who has the greater truths. Both sides guess and extrapolate. Truth becomes subjective. Both sides appear to have undeniable truths. There are issues of doctrine in the mainline I am really struggling with, such as eternal hell, eternal punishment, once saved always saved, and in the SDA a bent on legalism. I also have a a big problem for any church that tolerates the idea of 'pro choice'. If not for that one, I would have already returned to the SDA. So , in order to move forward, I have to sort through these conflicts. Everyone has a system of practice and their best efforts towrads faith. I am peddling as fast as I can. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2057 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; here's a couple of verses that SDAs love to use. Though for the life of me, I cannot see how they can use them to support their position. Matthew 5:17-18; "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Jim; do you think the "Law and the Prophets" are just the 10c? The "Law and the Prophets" are all 613 commands, not just the ten; and they include circumcisn and the animal sacrifices. Adventists like to point out "not an iota, not a dot," but do you see them sacrificing animals? "CEREMONIAL" is an Adventist invention. If an Israelite under the Old Covenant broke any of the Sabbaths, be they yearly/seasonal, monthly or weekly; they lost their lives as a result. Don't you see? The SDA church has tricked you into thinking that part of the Law is "ceremonial" and part of it not. So as you can see, either ALL is still in force or ALL is fulfilled. If you read the New Covenant from Matthew to Revelation, you'll only see 9 of the 10c repeated. These 9 are not only repeated, but greatly expanded on. Jesus said that even to hate someone is to kill him - making the New Covenant law even more impossible for a man to keep. That's why a believer has the Seal of the Holy Spirit in his/her heart. (Ephesians 1:13-14) It's not us "keeping" the Law anymore. As soon as we accept Jesus as our Savior, the Holy Spirit seals us and comes into our hearts. He's the One Who does the keeping. Why do you think Ephesians 2:8,9; 2nd Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 says that a believer HAS BEEN saved? Remember Elijah saying to Israel; "How long do you halt between two opinions?" I'd like to ask you the same thing, because either Ellen White is right and the Bible is wrong, or the Bible is right and Ellen White is wrong. They cannot both be right. Ahhh... that's another thing to add to the thread about "What did Ellen White get wrong?" --the fact that she said no one can say they are saved and the Bible says otherwise! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2059 Registered: 7-2007 |
...and salvation is free for the asking, Jim! Please don't wait. Nobody is guaranteed tomorrow! And yes, it's free! It's called a free gift over and over again, in verses such as Romans 5:15. If it's free, you don't have to work for it. In fact, if you're working for it, you aren't accepting the gift! I wonder if intelligence is a curse, because people often try to find God with their mind instead of their heart. Become like a little child, Jim. Notice this verse. "Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." Mark 10:15 | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 107 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Jim02~ Believe me~ I have been where you now seem to be~with much prayer you will come through because there is a light at the end of the tunnel you are in~ one word of caution, from my experience, quiet your mind from the many 'voices' you seem to be trying to listen to now~step back, take a deep breath and "Be Still"and wait for the Holy Spirit to speak to your heart~ it worked for me~ Do I still have questions without answers? yes I do~but my faith in The "ONE" who wholes the universe in His hands sustains me~ I am "Cheering You On"~ Jim, with prayers~ ~*~mj~*~ | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1250 Registered: 5-2007 |
Matthew 5:17-18 Amplified Bible (AMP) 17Do not think that I have come to do away with or [a]undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished. Matthew 5:17-18 American Standard Version (ASV) 17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. J: Depending upon how you interpret this passage greatly changes the comprehension. I really am not sure how it really translates or in what context. Looking at KJV: Inserting my comprehension 'confusion'. Matthew 5:17-18 King James Version (KJV) 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: J: Christ's mission was not to destroy the law or the prophets (though I am not sure what the prophets mean, except perhaps the phophecys concerning Christ) KJV: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. J: To bring the law into functional comprehension and application in one's life. To magnify the law, to establish it. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, J: Earth has not passed , nor heaven. KJV: till all be fulfilled. J: Unspecified as to what "all" includes. I assume a timeline in reference to the law, but it is not clear. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1251 Registered: 5-2007 |
mj, Frankly , I wear myself out trying to find something (A Church, interpretations, teachers, books)that I can trust depend on , rest in, settle, know that it is right. If there is any cause for agnosticism, it is that. Because coming out of SDA entails a dismantling of a life time of comprehension and trust. It leaves you with little left that you can have any confidence in. It may be that I am so atuned to the SDA auora and methodlogy of instruction , that I do not knwo how to recieve information given my other expressions or methods. I can read a SDA book, take your pick, and it flows with very little conflict as far as understanding it. But that I surmise is part of the problem. It may be too predigested. Now days, I try to challenge and verify the assumptions and unqualified conclusions in the SDA teachings. I discover are brought to you by the method I call "we say so". But it is interlaced in such a way that you do not catch it. To be fair , I see this in mainliners too. Be still........ I understand your point. Sometimes, thinking too much prevents learning or hearing. Jim (Message edited by jim02 on August 26, 2011) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1252 Registered: 5-2007 |
Diane, I do depend on Christ. Jim | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 116 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Praying for you, Jim02~ ~*~mj~*~ | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 367 Registered: 7-2010  |
Jim, Read Luke 24:44-48. This should confirm for you that what was spoken about in Mat 5 (the "all" you are confused about) was indeed fulfilled at the cross (Jesus Himself follows up on the statement). As for the meaning of "the prophets", this is terminology for the divisions of the Jewish Bible (both then and still today). They divided the Tanakh (our Old Testament) into three sections: The Torah (Law), Nevi'im (Prophets), and the Ketuvim (Writings/Psalms). This is what you see in the specific wording in Mat 5, Luke 24, and other places like Romans 3:21. I hope this helps. Michael | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1260 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank You mj for your prayers. It means a lot to me. Hi Michael, That helps, but it still talks about repentance and reference to sins. I get hung up on the works generated by the phrase repentance and forgivness of sins. Got to repent, got to get rid of sins. Or the transaction is incomplete. Then the vicious cycle of law gets in there because we establish the law and on and on it goes. Law defines sin. I do not want to keep feeding on Spiritual Milk. If I set aside the law, then I live entirely by grace and the completed work of Christ. If I am in Christ, changes will evolve towards the fruit of The Spirit. But in all this, my flesh remains a conflict. Finding peace when I see my mistakes, defects, battles, fear. What do I do about the lists of those excluded? In one degree or another, are not most if not all guilty of these sins and flaws. There is no condemnation? As in what excatly? From what? The mess that we are? Or from the past, but no more sacrifice remains. Now get back to work and sin no more. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling? I struggle to put it together long enough to embrace it, before I find myself back into the circle of works. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12898 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, God does not count us righteous because He sees righteousness in us. He counts us righteous, when we trust in Jesus, because of His love for Jesus--not for us. When we believe in Jesus and are made alive by the Holy Spirit indwelling us and giving life to our spirits, God counts us righteous. That is a fact that He does because of His love for the Son who has purchased us with His blood. Jesus' blood bought us and transferred us from the domain of darkness to the kingdom of Jesus (Col 1:13). Our flesh is still sinful; it's mortal. But it's not our flesh that determines whether we are "alive" or "dead". It is our spirit's condition. When we place our faith in Jesus, He makes us alive (Eph 1:13-14; 2:4-10). Our flesh is still dead and still has a sin nature in it, but now our true self is alive. Our spirits are alive inside our mortal flesh. But our flesh, our sins, our physical death cannot take away our eternal life. Living by the Spirit is a result of being declared righteous and made alive. That transaction is the source of eternal life. Our growing denial of sins is the result of submitting our still-sinful flesh to Jesus and allowing His Spirit to change us. But we don't change until we are made alive. And life is eternal! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2061 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; Repentance simply means that we agree with God that we are sinners. But we cannot do anything about it. It doesn't matter whether we have sinned once or a million times. Man, without God's intervention, would be on their way to hell. Every last person. It is only God's love, God's mercy and God's just payment of our penalty, that allows anyone to go to Heaven. Read John 3:17 where it says that Jesus didn't come into the world to condemn the world. It was condemned already. Jim; Heaven isn't dependent on us getting GOOD enough. Either ALL a person's sins; past, present and future, are forgiven, or none of them are forgiven. It all depends on whether you've completely accepted Jesus' sacrifice or not! And please stop reading Ellen White's books. (And other cult books.) That opens a door for the devil to keep you confused and deceived! Seventh-day Adventism is just as much a cult as Mormonism. It's just a WHOLE LOT more subtle! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2064 Registered: 7-2007 |
Also Jim; it sounds as though you're in that state of mind described by Lori in her post number 111, in the thread called; "SDAs freaking out over Sunday laws in Europe," where she talks about SDAs, saying; quote: "They are pushing aside the same thoughts I used to put aside....thinking that if they just guard the edges of the Sabbath a little better and stop eating meat that those thoughts will go away. The think those thoughts are there because they aren't being a good enough Adventist and they just need to be better. They will read the Bible but they are always encountering a Scripture that doesn't make sense. So...they will do what I did....they will grab a book that will make it easier to understand...they will let the words of Ellen White clarify the words of God for them." Please go by the Bible only, Jim, and stop reading things that bind you under the spell of the devil. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1263 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurpise, I will keep your advice in mind. I realize , I have to start raising a shield against confusing teaching. |
