| Author | Message | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1170 Registered: 10-2008 |
That phrase has been resonating in my brain ever since Sunday. God is not secretive. Wow! In Adventism God is secretive. Somehow, according to my previous thinking - God was somehow holding out on me ... and others ... How could godly Sunday worshipers not get the Sabbath? They read their Bibles?! Why didn't God reveal the "truth" of the Sabbath to them. God was secretive and I was blessed to know the secret ... And why did Adventists have The Truth and others not ...? This Sunday I heard a sermon on prayer and then we had communion. During communion time we were encouraged to seek God and ask Him about any sin that needed to be dealt with. Hanging on to sin in our lives disturbed our prayer life and connection with God - We can't expect God to hear us when we hang on to known sin in our lives. I prayed ... HARD.  Often, I would pray that same prayer as an Adventist and wonder - what if God didn't show me the sin that I wasn't remembering. [Does that even make sense???] What if I couldn't remember a particular sin - would God not hear me? That is what I had thought as an Adventist. Any hidden sin could keep me out of the kingdom and it was my job to figure out my own sin - at least that is how I understood it. Any of you felt the same as an Adventist? I spoke with a wonderful never-been Adventist after the this sermon. I tried to explain the angst I had felt in the service over prayer and remembering sin - she said, "God is not secretive." I began to tear up. Didn't even fully understand the tears at the time ... Now, I have a better understanding ... God won't hold out on me about something I should know! God is not secretive. That whole theme of secrecy is IN Adventism. God held His hand over the date/scripture in 1844 so a little band of searching Christians would come to the conclusion of the Investigative Judgment. God had to be secretive to get you to the truth. God is secretive in Adventism. God is not secretive, nor a liar ... Satan is the father of all lies and he is the one that tries to hide (Remember after sin in the garden - Adam and Eve hid. God is the one that went looking). Satan is the one who prompts others to hide their sin from the light of forgiveness and healing. God is not secretive. He reveals Himself so that no one is without excuse. Isn't that a blessing? | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1546 Registered: 12-2007 |
AMEN ! Thank you for sharing that. Francie | ||
| Mkfound Registered user Username: Mkfound Post Number: 124 Registered: 1-2011 |
I also had the scary feeling when I was an SDA wondering if I would be able to remember all my sins so that I could confess them. I do remember, as a child, maybe up until 6 or so years old, keeping a tally of sins that I needed forgiven. I used to recite them every night, and the list kept getting longer. Soon, I wasn't able to recite all my sins I was keeping track of. The reason I was doing this is because I had confessed them to God--but not to the person that I thought I had wronged, and knew I was not forgiven. I used to lay awake thinking of these things. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12826 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jrt, thank you. That is such a profound point. God doesn't trick us or hold out on us. He tells us the truth, and He is always right on time. Always. Colleen | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 98 Registered: 7-2011  |
Jrt, what you share is SO POWERFUL. You got me thinking, Why would God send His Son at such an infinite, huge cost - only to hide the means of salvation to most people. Jesus said to His disciples, Go to all nations and preach the Good News! Don't hide it under a bushel or whatever. I always felt uncomfortable with the idea that God hid the real meaning of the 2300 day prophecy from William Miller and his followers. God is not secretive! | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 522 Registered: 5-2009  |
Powerful thoughts, Jrt. Adventists feed on the notion that the world must understand the Bible and salvation THROUGH secrets revealed in vision to EGW. So many evangelistic sermons play on the "Prophecy Secrets Revealed" theme. This whole idea sets you up to not believe the plain words of Scripture because ...it sounds to good to be true...there's gotta be some kind of hidden meaning...salvation apart from works can't be true...there must be an IJ to ensure that only the truly good people get in... Has my name come up? Will I be saved? Only God knows... yeah...what.ever. They are all psychological mind games that keep you wrapped up and bound. *sigh* | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 627 Registered: 4-2007 |
Strange, but the word CULT comes to mind. I wonder why? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2884 Registered: 8-2004  |
Amen JRT! God is not secretive! Neither is he trying to trick us out of salvation. He actually loves us and wants to draw us to Himself. | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 330 Registered: 5-2009 |
I hear you Jrt & can sympathize. Would you believe I was taught, in the context of the Investigative Judgment & the Sanctuary (cleansing, atonement), that God does not keep secrets from us about our sins because He loves us & wants us to be with Him in eternity. So He, by the Holy Spirit, will make known to us any unconfessed sin so that we can ask forgiveness, before the close of probation. This was to take the fear out of the IJ & see God & the whole teaching in a positive rather than negative light. On my first trip through the bible I began seeing & noting scriptures that talked about God & secrets. Colossians 1:25-27 New Living Translation (NLT) 25 God has given me the responsibility of serving his church by proclaiming his entire message to you. 26 This message was kept secret for centuries and generations past, but now it has been revealed to God’s people. 27 For God wanted them to know that the riches and glory of Christ are for you Gentiles, too. And this is the secret: Christ lives in you. This gives you assurance of sharing his glory. Deuteronomy 29:29 New Living Translation (NLT) 29 “The Lord our God has secrets known to no one. We are not accountable for them, but we and our children are accountable forever for all that he has revealed to us, so that we may obey all the terms of these instructions. Jeremiah 33:3 New Living Translation (NLT) 3 Ask me and I will tell you remarkable secrets you do not know about things to come. Romans 16:25 New Living Translation (NLT) 25 Now all glory to God, who is able to make you strong, just as my Good News says. This message about Jesus Christ has revealed his plan for you Gentiles, a plan kept secret from the beginning of time. I grant that most of the verses that I noted (some besides the ones above) are phrased as 'the mystery; or the mystery of God' in parallel versions of the bible. So what I was seeing was that God has secrets (mysteries), some of which get revealed over time. Maybe the point is that the motives matter. We cannot understand some things until after they happen - ie Jesus came. God is God & we are not, so some things will be a 'secret' or a 'mystery.' But God does not trick us or keep us from knowledge that we need. He has no secret motive. Jesus taught in parables because not all were ready to hear & understand; even when He gave the disciples the plain truth they did not understand & believe until after His resurrection & after He gave them one more bible study & opened their understanding of scriptures. Luke 24:44-46. The things of salvation are simple & clear. That is what I hear you saying! What relief you feel! It's not convoluted, confusing, difficult to explain or understand! Especially this side of the cross! Praise God that He gave you healing & restored the joy of your salvation Jrt! J9 | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2011 |
God doesn't lie to us. He likes TRUTH! | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 73 Registered: 2-2011 |
~GOD not only likes~ TRUTH~ HE IS~ "TRUTH" !~ ~*~mj~*~ | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 100 Registered: 7-2011 |
J9, you have raised some very interesting points! Wow. It's obvious from these verses that God does have secrets! Now I'm thinking, is that bad? The Creator God, Almighty Sovereign has secrets that His Creatures do not know about? “Maybe the point is that the motives matter. We cannot understand some things until after they happen - ie Jesus came. God is God & we are not, so some things will be a 'secret' or a 'mystery.' But God does not trick us or keep us from knowledge that we need. He has no secret motive.” Yes. There is a difference between 'having secrets' and 'being secretive'. 'Secret' – undisclosed, mystery, unknown, concealed 'Secretive' – evasive, shifty, misleading, vague, under-hand God is not 'secretive' in the sense of tricking us. I guess it's like a parent with a young child. The parent waits until the child reaches a certain age before explaining certain principles -things their young minds wouldn't grasp or do not need to grasp yet - that's not being secretive that's being a wise and loving parent. Which reminds me of something rather disturbing -a toddler I know talking about having 'Satan in his heart' -but if I share it here I'll get off topic - I'm trying not to do that anymore! ;-) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12831 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mysteries are not "secrets". Mysteries are simply reality that has not yet been revealed. Secrets are things someone doesn't tell...and in the context of EGW, as is generally the case with "having secrets", God's "secrets" were manipulative. For example, He "held his hand over" the wrong date in William Miller's prophecy that Jesus would return in 1843 (oops, no--1844--oops, no...) because he wanted people to "get ready". God's mysteries are not manipulative. He doesn't trick us. Colleen | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1175 Registered: 10-2008 |
J9, Since reading your post I have ruminated on the texts that you posted ... Even reading them in the context of the chapters before and after. According to how I read some of the verses that you posted the definition that seems to best fit is what Colleen has written above "Mysteries are simply reality that has not yet been revealed." In Daniel it is mentioned 3 times that the information given to Daniel is to be "sealed up" until the "time of the end." (Dan. 12:9-9; 12:4; Dan. 8:26) My original post was more to the 2 Peter 1:3-4; "His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires." All I need for life and godliness HAS been given to me. Nothing is left secret to me in regards to living my life for His glory and in holiness. I realize J9 what you were saying ... (At least this is how I interpreted it) what has been prophesied or such things that our human minds cannot at this time comprehend - those things may be hidden until God's timing for them to be revealed. I was just praising God that all I need for life and godliness He freely gives ... He doesn't hold out on me ... nor does He deceive me to get me where I need to be ... By His very nature He is truth. He is not the "negative" understanding of "secretive". In the meantime I am learning to trust Him with the things I don't fully understand at this time - for He is trustworthy and faithful. My love simply grows for Him as I grow in Him. jrt | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 335 Registered: 5-2009 |
Jrt, I hope you did not feel defensive or like I was negating anything you said or were feeling. I am sorry if it felt that way & I apologize. I join you in celebrating & praising God! I realize that when I post scriptures like I did that it is another case of 'proof texting,'if you will, & I read them in context before posting them (& did not post all that I had because I did so) so I get what you are saying. It just was interesting to me that there are passages where what was written are translated that way - 'secret'. Forgive me if I took what you meant & made it something else. Not intended. Maybe it's an old sda habit - to argue. It definitely 'hijacked' your post & I am sorry. J9 | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 109 Registered: 7-2011 |
J9, what you shared was thoughtful, interesting and on topic. Not a red herring - but relevant thoughts that require consideration. I’m sure the others would agree too! Please keep sharing! I love your insights! | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1177 Registered: 10-2008 |
J9, I'm sorry if I came across as defensive. My apologies. Too bad we can't hear or see the facial expressions of the one posting ... it would be so much easier to decipher some of the posts I'm not offended or upset. With my original post I had thought ... There is another side to this ... prophesy that just hasn't been revealed yet ... Those types of "secrets" or mysteries. I decided to only post the one side ... but you brought in the other side of things in which scripture does mention that there are things that are not revealed to us yet, ie. secrets ... and also, things our finite minds can't comprehend. Anyways, no offense was taken on my part ... You are right, though, I was wanting to bring the thread back to the original post in which - God does not hide from us what we need. It had been such an emotional "ahaa" for me ... Like something deep inside broke lose .... Guess it is all that indoctrination I had and God is now teaching and healing ... And your post made me think - which is always a GOOD thing . Blessings, JRT | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 336 Registered: 5-2009 |
Jrt, Thanks! and Kelleigh too, thanks. I didn't really think you came off as defensive Jrt, but I've learned (the hard way) that it is better to ask for a 'confirmation' than to wonder or assume - or find out in a negative way. :-) I think I was a little bothered by some of the responses that seemed to me to be 'one-sided' statements about God. So there we are! I also love provocative things that make me think - esp if I don't initially agree. Back on track, J9 | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 1178 Registered: 10-2008 |
J9, Glad you asked ... I agree it is always good to ask so the "air" is clear between brothers and sisters in Christ. I appreciate that about you. I'm one of those people that has to mull something over, before I speak or agree. And your post with the scriptures caused me to mull. Jrt | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1225 Registered: 5-2007 |
When one reads the teachings revealed in the New Testament about Salvation for the Gentiles and being set free from the law. It becomes a reconstruction process. It is in this process of moving from the foundations of the OT to the unfolding of the NT that creates it's own new mystery. Are these new teachings valid? Are they truth? Do we understand it? Are there more mysteries not yet comprehended , yet staring at us in scripture, but we cannot see it. Do we understand the scope and implications of these new teachings? These questions are why there are so many Christians faiths today. Jesus told his followers there were many things they could not yet understand. The Bible says when we search with all our heart and mind to find God , we will find Him. On our own, we have no discernment, no connection. We speculate in darkness. The wisdom of the world is foolishness. What do you think causes the confusing differences between theologies? Religion is about the mysteries we hope we understand. (Message edited by jim02 on August 13, 2011) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12838 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, first of all, I want to say there is only one Christian faith. There are many denominations, but there really is only one Christian faith, and that is based on the fundamentals of Jesus, the cross, the resurrection, and the validity of Scripture. The secondary details are not the gospel and frequently make for a lot of discussion within Christianity and to the formation of different denominations...but there is only one Christian faith. Second, the question of whether the NT teachings are valid can actually be addresses. There is much historic documentation that the books of the NT were agreed upon by the early church fathers as having been written by legitimate authors who were either apostles or were directly associated with apostles (such as Luke). I used to wonder how we could know that the NT writers, in quoting the OT and saying what the passages meant, could be believed. When the OT passages were written, the first recipients would not have always had the understanding of what those passages meant from a NT perspective. How, then, can we be certain the NT authors were not simply interpreting Scripture according to their own paradigms, like EGW, for example? Last night at our FAF Bible study, we looked at this question. In Acts 4:25-26, for example, those first Christians began to pray and to praise God after Peter and John were released by the Jewish authorities after healing a man lame from birth. They began quoting OT passages and saying they had been fulfilled by the Romans and the Jewish leaders persecuting and killing Christ. Well, the question might be asked, how do we know that the events surrounding Jesus' death were fulfilling the words of Psalm 2 where it says the kings of the earth and the nations rise up together against the Lord and His Anointed and call for Their bonds to be broken? When the Psalm was written, it was understood to be a coronation psalm celebrating the installation of a Davidic king—"God's anointed". But there is a verse in Luke 24:44-47 that I NEVER noticed as an Adventist. Here's what it says:
Notice what it says: Jesus told His followers how He fulfilled all that had been written about Him in the law, the prophets, and the psalms...and then He opened their minds to understand Scripture. It was the Lord Jesus who explained to the writers of the NT how he and the gospel fulfilled the meanings of the OT prophecies. The second Person of the Trinity taught His followers who planted the church, and they learned directly from God what those OT passages meant. They mean what they say! Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1557 Registered: 12-2007 |
AMEN !!! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1226 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen , Thank You ! This is a very lucid and valid point. He explained it to them. Continuity. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 2052 Registered: 10-2002  |
Quick note for J9 and others, Whenever Paul used the word "mystery" (translated in NLT as "secret"), it does not refer to that which is hidden. Paul's usage of the word refers to what was once hidden but has now been revealed. In other words, the gospel of Christ Jesus. In Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. He Himself IS the 'mystery of God'! He is the one in whom all things hold together, and He is the beginning and the end. He is the start and the finish. Everything comes from Him and proceeds through Him and ends in Him. In other writings (namely Revelation and Daniel) the term "mystery of God" is used and we could maybe find a different application there, but Paul's usage is crystal clear. I'll go further, though: I believe the other usages are also the same as what Paul says. In Christ everything is finished and completed, for He is the end. He Himself IS the "It is Finished", and when He returns, all will be completed and finished. In Himself all is finished, and when He who is named "the End" comes, everything on earth will be finished, too. Bless you in His love! Ramone |
