| Author | Message | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2011 |
Ellen White "Eating, drinking, and dressing all have a direct bearing upon our spiritual advancement". "Because of a failure to deny self, many of God's people are unable to reach the high standard of spirituality He has set for them.." The Bible "Don't let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud and they are not connected to Christ the head of the body" "…These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person's evil desires." Colossians 2:18,19,23 Ellen White "As our first parents lost Eden through the indulgence of appetite, our only hope of regaining Eden is through the firm denial of appetite and passion". The Bible “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — not by works, so that no one can boast”. Ephesians 2:8,9 Ellen White “If Christians will keep the body in subjection, and bring all their appetites and passions under the control of enlightened conscience…They will have moral power to engage in the warfare against Satan; and in the name of Him who conquered appetite in their behalf, they may be more than conquerors on their own account.” The Bible "Put on all of God’s armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies of the devil". Ephesians 6:11 "Don't tear apart the work of God over what you eat." Romans 14:20 (Ellen White quotations from 'Counsels on Diet and Foods' emphasis added) | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2011 |
"they may be more than conquerors on their own account" ??? We are more than conquerors through Jesus Christ! "Our only hope of regaining Eden is through the firm denial of appetite" ??? Our only hope of 'regaining Eden' is through Jesus. | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 913 Registered: 5-2009 |
"The true Christian will not desire to enter any place of amusement or engage in any diversion upon which he cannot ask the blessing of God. He will not be found at the theater, the billiard hall, or the bowling saloon. He will not unite with the gay waltzers or indulge in any other bewitching pleasure that will banish Christ from the mind. To those who plead for these diversions we answer, We cannot indulge in them in the name of Jesus of Nazareth...No Christian would wish to meet death in such a place. No one would wish to be found there when Christ shall come." The Adventist Home, pp. 515, 516. | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 914 Registered: 5-2009 |
P.S. This quote is from a textbook I had in academy called "The Spirit of Prophecy Treasure Chest." I had forgotten ever reading this exact quote, but when I found it tonight, I had the answer to why, when I went to see a movie, I had a fear about the second coming occurring during the 1 1/2 hours I was sitting in the theater! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1962 Registered: 6-2006  |
All about food, all about the body, all about the sabbath, all about works. A perfect example of an SDA sermon. Excellent post, Kelleigh! Thank you.  Leigh Anne btw, welcome! Great to see a fresh face. I'm a never-been, married to a "Badventist". | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 495 Registered: 5-2009  |
These quotes are awesome Kalleigh. Very helpful in understanding Adventists obsession with health. I'd like to point out that such thinking is very New Agey and not at all Christian (as you pointed out with the Bible texts). | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 328 Registered: 5-2009 |
Great post Kelleigh - thank you. Here are a few verses that struck me as I have read through the bible. Wish I could add them to the appropos place in your original post; 1 Cor 8:8 NIV 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. John 6:27 New Living Translation (NLT) Jesus is speaking - 27 But don’t be so concerned about perishable things like food. Spend your energy seeking the eternal life that the Son of Man can give you. For God the Father has given me the seal of his approval. Hebrews 13:9 New Living Translation (NLT) 9 So do not be attracted by strange, new ideas. Your strength comes from God’s grace, not from rules about food, which don’t help those who follow them. Romans 14:17 New Living Translation (NLT) 17 For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Then there is this instruction Jesus gave His disciples when he sent them out: Luke 10:7 New Living Translation (NLT) 7 Don’t move around from home to home. Stay in one place, eating and drinking what they provide. Don’t hesitate to accept hospitality, because those who work deserve their pay. All these would be explained away by sdas & egw. Of course you cannot eat what they provide if it is ceremonially unclean. Surely Jesus did not mean it THAT way. . . . OR they would not have stayed with anyone who was not kosher jews. . . . God changes not you know. . . . These scriptures in the context of the whole bible give me a different understanding than what I was taught in sdaism. When I read through the whole bible with questions in mind, answers come. When I ask God to open the eyes of my heart, soften my heart, transform me by the renewing of my mind, give me understanding by His Spirit, & remove my preconceived biases & beliefs. . . . . . .HE does! J9 | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2010 Registered: 7-2007 |
When I was an Adventist, I believed that both Ellen and the Bible were true. It was hard though to make them agree, so I took both a little metaphorically and came up with a middle position that I thought was the "truth." (Message edited by Asurprise on July 31, 2011) | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 37 Registered: 7-2011 |
Asuprise, I was one of those silly duffers who actually thought that everything Ellen White wrote came directly from the Lord Jesus. SO I followed the 'health counsel' very carefully. I used to make our own 'mock mustard' Lol! J9, thank you for those verses. I didn't realise there were so many on this topic! Stressing about diet has been such a big part of my Christian experience - these verses are so healing. Btw my personal Bible is the NLT too! Cloudwatcher, a former New Ager explained that a low protein diet (extreme vegan) actually helps the ‘spirit guides’ communicate as the physical body is weakened and more receptive to spirit communications. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12791 Registered: 12-2003  |
Kelleigh, those are awesome quotes and comparisons! Thank you! I'm seeing the Adventist "health message" as one of the distinctive "finger prints" of the non-Christian, occultic (yes, I know that's a strong word) foundation of the religion. Any religion that has Satan as the scapegoat and a Jesus who is not eternal, almighty God is not Christianity and gives Satan the core role in destroying sin. I've also heard that, Kelleigh, about the low protein of veganism causing a spaciness that makes them more receptive to spiritual influences. Colleen | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1213 Registered: 5-2007 |
Speaking from reflection of my own motives. I was and remain (echos) attracted to the SDA ideal of getting closer to God spiritually, seeking for that elusive high. Taht sense of extra security, safe within the fold......as long as you can keep up the works, the lists and disciplines. In fairness, I think the SDA attempt to balance the physicial realities with the spiritual. The holistic approach as it were. But , as is so often the case, we end up majoring in the minors. I noticed the NLT verses J9 offered. What jumps out is the intent> To grow spiritualy. It gets back to that. That is the draw, the motive, the desire. Maybe it is because I have never experienced it anywhere else. But I have not been spiritually alive (at least emotionally) since I fell away from the SDA. Maybe it is because I am looking for what is not there, or maybe I do not knwo what I am looking for and would not know it if I saw it. That is /was the draw of the SDA fellowship. That sense of depth, belonging and connecting. We can label that as cultic attraction, but it was something more than that. So I look for a church that is Spiritual and family, but not legalistic and off the deep end with the same extremes I left. Again, I do not really know what I am looking for , and perhaps I am still trying to replace adventism. I still keep reviewing, drawn to the family of SDA , but staying outside, I cannot carry the load if I go in. Maybe , just a friend of the church. At least it is better than zero. If I go and recieve a blessing, feel like I am home again, do I tell myself it is an illusion? Living a lie? Or should I hold onto my doubts and freeze outside? I really do not know how to sort it out. Jim02 | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 45 Registered: 7-2011 |
Hi Jim, I think I hear what you're saying. Belonging and connecting are an important part of our Christian experience. From re-reading the Epistles it seems (to me) that our Heavenly Father really wants us to experience fellowship and belonging too. A way we grow spiritually is by loving and supporting one another in community. Outside the fold of Christian fellowship it is understandable that we would feel less spiritually alive. But where to find the 'right' community? 'Should I hold onto my doubts and freeze on the outside?' Doubts are funny things. Once you've got them, it's not easy to squash them! Colleen explained to me that grief has stages. One of them is 'bargaining'. Do you think that maybe you're bargaining? Trying to find a way to make a 'relationship' work that's truly over for you? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2013 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; I heard a pastor say that we're born legalists. I think he's right. We all have the tendency to DO something! I notice that tendency in myself too. It's so much more restful and joyful to depend on Jesus' finished work entirely though! The apostle John wrote to the believers in 1st John 2:12 that the their sins "are forgiven." What sins? Obviously ALL sins! By the time they got the letter, they would each have committed more sins. Yet, those sins were forgiven, which were future when the apostle John wrote it! All sins! Past, present and future! It's wonderful, isn't it?! | ||
| Butterfly_poette Registered user Username: Butterfly_poette Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2011 |
Have you ever heard of the term "Orthorexia"? That is considered an eating disorder by some professionals. It is when people are so obsessed with eating the "right" diet that they end up not having enough nutrients. It happens with some vegans and raw foodists whose diet is so strict they nearly kill themselves. www.orthorexia.com | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 378 Registered: 2-2006 |
I never heard the term "Orthorexia" before, but I can sure tell it in my SDA nieces and their EGW "health" obssessed mother (my sister.) Much damage, physically and mentally, has been done to those poor girls; they live in fear if they do not "eat right". They are in their mid to late 20's now. God deliver them! Cathy2 cathoosier@gmail.com | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7412 Registered: 9-2006  |
It seems that people are always looking for a feeling. Some seem to go back down to the snake pit to get a feeling, a temporary sense of belonging. It seems like we crave to 'belong'. There are people that find the inclusion that they find in places like Adventism so attractive that they are willing to sacrifice truth for the feeling. I am Pentecostal and I've seen people drive for miles or fly across the continent looking for a feeling. Like dope addicts they live for the next high. But folks, a feeling is not growth of faith, its easy to fool oneself into believing he/she is living a Christian life when we are living on a feeling whether is is a sense of belonging, church fellowship, spiritual highs or whatever the case may be. It is real easy for one to feel when the Holy Spirit of God is upon him, but when God withdraws his Spirit for a time, we go all to pieces. Like our young children we take them by both hands and hold them up while they toddle across the floor, but when we turn loose they begin to stumble and fall. Christianity or whatever name we choose to give this life we are living is not based on feeling, its based on the solid foundation of Christ's life, death, burial and resurrection and that is what raises us up. I can tell you whats going to happen to some of you, you'll shy away from the Spirit of God because you'll encounter feelings that are not what you are used too. Some of you, as soon as you don't have that 'feeling' will turn to some religion that gives you that 'feeling' whether is is traditional church practices such as robes, blessings inferred or bell ringing and raising a chalice because in that you will find the feeling that you are looking for and you can't wait untill Sunday rolls around. But I'm just telling you the way of the cross is bloody, tiring, and undesirable and the way of total forgiveness is hard. Some of you will resent me for saying this to you, you want an easy way, I don't blame you. River | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 383 Registered: 2-2006 |
Somrtimes, we have to walk through fire. But we are refined like gold and come closer to God, if we allow it and don't get bitter. Cathy2 cathoosier@gmail.com | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2011 |
River, this discussion about feelings and worship raises another issue. I’m not disagreeing with you. Just raising another issue. I'm a naturally emotional person and spiritual highs (and lows sometimes) are part of the fabric of my Christian life. I totally agree that the Christian life should not be based on feelings, but on the foundation of gospel truth. My background which is historic Adventism however, has a sober worship style which does not allow for expression of feelings or emotion during worship at all. Hymns are sung in dreary monotone and no one hardly smiles. Some members of my former congregation would not even watch 3ABN because people would sometimes raise their hand/s when singing a musical item. But when I read the New Testament I see a lot of joy. Joy is a feeling and joy is holy. It's one of the fruits of the Spirit. Worship should be joyful. I see no problems with the expression of joy and praise. Then there's sadness. Sadness is an emotion and it's ok too! But if a person is sad or depressed that's a sin according to Ellen White. I can't think of the quote, but it was recited at my church because depression among the congregation was an issue. When I lost a loved one I was told to keep my chin up (only a few days after our loss). But sadness and even depression are natural emotions and are appropriate sometimes. They are not a sin. River, I don't want to take away from what you're saying. I agree that feelings can be misleading and are not a basis for the Christian life. The religious background I have come from teaches that feelings should have no part of worship at all. I think this idea is too extreme also. Regarding 'feelings of belonging'. That can be a two edged sword. To experience a sense of belonging in a church you know to teaches an erroneous gospel is a predicament, as is going to a church that has truth (knowledge), but in which one does not experience the warmth of fellowship (fruits?). | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7417 Registered: 9-2006 |
Kelleigh, I absolutely agree with you and I know exactly what you mean by what you are saying. I've seen what you are saying in action. I have seen the deadness in Adventist worship. I think to forbid or look down upon the outward emotional expression of our love for the Lord Jesus would be to rob a person of joy, but in the least, another extreme. Emotion is a part of us and it makes up what we are. Kelleigh, I just want to remark that I have been paying particular attention to the inherent wisdom of how you interpret these post. I suspect that that wisdom did not come easy to you, but has been taught through some suffering. I was not on the forum when you came on to welcome you, so welcome, the wisdom you show in your post is like a breathe of fresh air. River | ||
| Kelleigh Registered user Username: Kelleigh Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2011 |
River, if I know anything, I can assure you it comes from making lots of mistakes! When I was an Adventist I tried really hard to keep all the rules. Historics follow Ellen White to the letter and we really believed that every word Ellen wrote came directly from Jesus. I remember one funny thing. Not funny then. But funny now. Our community (I lived in a historic adventist community that was hiding in a remote part of our country in preparation for the Adventist end time scenario - ok, well thats kind of tragically funny too) a community that was known for its orderliness. Our church and the homes of the congregation were run like a military camp. One night at a church bon fire, as we were sitting around gazing into the fire, I said something I shouldn't have. I blame it on the mezmerizing effect of the flames now. Lol! I said, "I don't like being disciplined." Well. I could have said, 'I love eating ants' or 'I love Desmond Ford'. It was like a bomb had been dropped. One lady with mouth agape finally exclaimed, "Kelleigh, how can you not enjoy being disciplined?!" Talk about the proverbial peg. He he! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1214 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, In an attempt to be honest, without subtrifuge, I admitted to being aware of feelings in attempting to sense and actualize by faith walk. Looking through scripture, the walk of faith often includes hardship, isolation and being persecuted on one pretense of another. Do we base of faith on feelings? On the face of it , I would agree, no we do not. Feelings, warmth, joy, belonging, connectedness in fellowship, loving God experientially all come from the foundation of faith (which includes an element of understanding truth) and trust in Christ. We cannot chase directly after the elements of feelings. Feelings cannot pursued. Feelings "ensue" as a result of faith. But what about feelings in the present sense? Yes, we have to allow for experiencing the new , the unknown and change. I get that. While feeling the vacuum of the loss of the good moments of the past SDA years, I am also aware that I cannot carry the load if I were to go back in. On top of this, I have learned that the SDA do not have a clear doctrine of theology. There is another element of feelings that are significant. Confusion and anxiety. A feeling of being a lost sheep. Trying one's best to come out of the cold, and simply not knowing how to settle the confusions that lead to legalistic bondages. Feelings are often a present bondage. Faith is what sustains our hope that God will make a way of escape. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1215 Registered: 5-2007 |
Well, I should have proofed before posting. Feelings cannot be pursued. They ensue as a result. This is one of those areas where we chase after the wrong things. If I am chasing after feelings, I am never going to catch them. Feelings may be supressed I suppose, but to have an emotional experience is something that happens naturally. You do not manufacture it. But when it comes to confusion and anxiety, discouragement and weakness. We must in faith take these things to Christ in prayer. Faith comes by hearing........... | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2017 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; as long as someone is holding onto something that they "have to" do in order to obtain/maintain salvation, they won't have peace for sure! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1217 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, As long as someone is comprehending a "have to" as a commandment of God and then given a paradox bewteen two directives, then confusion occurs. Looking for what is not there. Looking for what is not yet comprehended. Most people (it seems) manage to take a position and go with it. Thus removing themselves from duality betweeen directives. I have not been able to quite get there. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 2021 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; the law was only given to the Jewish people back at Mount Sinai. Are you Jewish? Not that Jewish people who believe in Jesus are under the law. Because they are not. If you are not Jewish, why are you putting yourself under the law given at Sinai? (Again, Jewish people who accept Jesus are no longer under the Sinai law.) SDAs like to say that the law was from forever to forever, but Deuteronomy 5:2-3 says that the Sinai covenant wasn't given to the forefathers of Israel but to them, Israel. (Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13 identifies that covenant as the 10 commandments.) Romans 2:14 says that the law was never given to the Gentiles. Ephesians 2:14-15 says that Jesus broke down the wall between Jewish people and Gentiles (Gentiles were excluded before that from being God's people.) Romans 7 says that if you are alive to the law then you commit adultery against Christ. Galatians 4:24-26 says that the old covenant from Sinai brings bondage and talks about the freedom in the new covenant. In Acts 15, some of the leaders (all the leaders of the church were Jewish at that point) said that the new Gentile believers should be taught to keep the law, saying: "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses." (verse 5) The chapter goes on to tell about the debate that followed and the decision they reached through God's help. Finally one of the apostles (James) said: "Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood." (verses 19 & 20) Also that previous covenant - that Sinai covenant is now obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and Jesus brought in a new covanant. Hebrews 9:15-17 says that the new covenant didn't come into effect until Jesus died. Consider this Jim. Matthew 5:17-18 is Jesus saying that He didn't come to abolish, but to fulfill and that NONE of the Law or the Prophets would pass away until ALL was fulfilled. Tell me, is the sacrificial system and circumcism part of the Law or the Prophets? Yes, it is. So either Jesus fulfilled ALL of the Law and the Prophets when He died (and brought in a new covenant), or ALL of it is still in effect and the Jewish people still have to offer sacrifices. I say Jewish people, because Gentiles were never part of the Sinai covenant. If Jesus didn't fulfill ALL of it, the Gentiles would be out in the cold. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1218 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, I am right there with you on all your points. I have been studying the covenants for years now. I am able to talk people right out of the SDA but not myself. I know most of the points of theology on this. But as I said before, it is the missing parts that cause me to not be able to make a definitive conclusion regarding the 10C. I am inclined to accept that we are not under the law anylonger but under Grace. But there remains these assorted caveats that give me pause simply because Paul, James and John make reference to the law in a positive affirming manner, as well as Christ for that matter. In Revelation the wording "the commandments of God" have yet to be settled for me. Yes , I know about the application of Love for God and man being the new commandent(s). But I am not sure that is a clearly settled interpretation. I have ordered three study books (McArthur) on Romans, Galatians and James. I am still reading (almost completed) the book Justifaction and Regeneration by C.Lieter. Plus another book. If anything, I think that I am at least getting down to the foundational premise of Grace and Law. I do not discount anything at this point either side present, as it seems to me , both have elements of the truth. It is the practical transition that still confounds me. I have been reading some from Isaiah, Jerimiah and Malchi. When you read the words of God. Listening to God speak. It makes me think twice before I put away the law entirely. God seemed to be clearly dealing with man on a human level in words that he could comprehend. God said that He did not change. Yes, what we know of Christ seems very much different that God of the old testament. But here too, I consider Then One. Hence, my confusion and my hesitation. |
