| Author | Message | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 800 Registered: 7-2000 |
the church most certainly can come back without the rapture. There are 2000 years worth of Christian souls in heaven waiting to return. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12745 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'm with Phil. I view it pretty much as you, Ross...but I see some unknowns that make me hold it loosely. I suspect the actual reality will surprise all of us, although being aware and watching will make us prepared to recognize events. I think of Simeon at the temple when Jesus was circumcised; God had promised him that he would not die until he had seen the consolation of Israel. When Mary and Joseph brought that 8-day-old infant in for circumcision, Simeon knew...because the Holy Spirit let him know...that it was the Messiah. I'm sure that Simeon didn't go to bed every night knowing he would meet the Messiah as a baby in the temple...but he did know he would see the Messiah before he died. So I hold the details loosely but am learning to take seriously the command to watch and be ready for He will come back suddenly, when I don't expect Him. I heard those words as an Adventist, but I still believed there were certain markers that had to happen, and I watched for the markers instead of the Return: Sunday law, Time of Trouble, Flee to the hills, Cloud the size of a man's hand... Now I see that the command is to watch and be ready... Colleen | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 204 Registered: 10-2009  |
That's true Loneviking...but as the book I got for my birthday so awesomely states. We are part of the same Bride of Christ as Paul, Peter, John, Matthew...etc. etc. So since we from Pentecost on forward are part of the Bride of Christ I believe we those of us who are part of the Bride must be caught up in keeping with our Lord and Saviors Promise. (this is leading to fantastic discussion!) | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2011 |
~Ross I want to thank-you so much for writing how you look at this question of the rapture~ I too, believe just as you stated in your #203 post ! The Bema Seat of Christ & Marriage Supper of the Lamb! Everything! This is my "Blessed Hope"~ ~*~mj~*~ | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 801 Registered: 7-2000 |
Well, Ross, you still haven't answered this question, and I've never got a good answer from any Rapture teacher on this: And second, the Rapture position of 'taking the church out' is inconsistent. There is still a church on this earth during the tribulation. According to the Rapture theory, when the Rapture occurs those 'left behind' realize that they were wrong and many convert to Christ. Along with them, (in theory) are also 144,000 Jewish evangelists. So, why should this church after the Rapture go through the tribulation and experience Gods' wrath, while others do not? Are they not just as sealed? Are they not just as baptized? | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 802 Registered: 7-2000 |
Like Colleen, I'll hold the details loosely as there is so much that seems uncertain. It's a bit like working a 1,000 piece puzzle when you don't know what the picture is! Some things fit, some don't. The broad outline is that there will be a very bad time of trouble. That time of trouble will be a fight to the death between the church and the anti-Christ/Satan. Christ said, in Matt. 24:21,22, that unless those days were shortened, no life would exist--but for the elects sake those days would be shortened. Seems to me the elect have to still be on the earth for this to occur. Some of the things that John Darby and his school of futurists have taught have come true. The nation of Israel exists once again, and as of 1967, the capitol is Jerusalem. The next big thing would be the rebuilding of the temple. I'll wait and see, as I've never heard explained why the temple would have to be rebuilt. Any sacrifice offered there would be in vain and without the Shekinah glory it would be an empty shell. So, there are interesting times ahead and it sure looks like we will be the generation that sees all this happen. | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1504 Registered: 12-2007 |
"So, there are interesting times ahead and it sure looks like we will be the generation that sees all this happen." Very scary thought and yet so exciting  How blessed we would be to be in the final generation and see how it all plays out. | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 205 Registered: 10-2009 |
Loneviking: Those that come to belief after the Rapture are termed the Remnant. Nowhere is it said they are going to be protected, as for the 144,000 they have the seal of God on their foreheads...some say they are protected...and some say they aren't. What I do know is that we accepted Christ and God's wrath fell upon Himself through Christ on our behalf. The Church is not destined for wrath. However nowhere does it say that the remnant who come to believe are protected (though I believe it does allude in some of the Judgments that those Sealed (the 144,000 are protected)). Also the Elect once the Church is removed then refers to Israel again, that's what the Spirit has led me to understand. We're the Bride...Israel is the Elect. The Remnant...those who come to faith after the Rapture aren't included in the elect...they're entirely fair game. I'm so glad we aren't subject to the Wrath it is going to be a bloody, bloody, bloody time. Praise the Lord that's Christ's Blood redeemed us and removes God's wrath from us! (Message edited by RossBondReturns on July 16, 2011) | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 969 Registered: 7-2008  |
God is both the source of His wrath and His protection. Surely God can protect His church from the wrath that He will pour upon the earth, Just as God protected Noah and his family during the outbreak of the flood(which God sent Himself upon the earth). As His child I fear not the tribulation times. God is able to see me through. I personally dont know which theory is the correct scenario.It really isnt important for me to know. But God does know...I trust Him completely. My relationship with Him is ALL that really matters. "Seek first the Kingdom of God." ...Animal | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 803 Registered: 7-2000 |
Ancient Chinese curse: 'may you live in interesting times' Ross, you've told me the 'what' but not the 'why'. Where does Scripture condemn the Remnant to a fate different than the Elect? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9298 Registered: 3-2004  |
Animal, I do agree with you. My relationship with Him is all that really matters. Diana L | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 970 Registered: 7-2008 |
Diana..U is a smart woman !!! | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 206 Registered: 10-2009 |
Loneviking: The 144,000 As far as I can tell are the only ones sealed by the mark of God in Revelation. The Elect (being Israel) are put under a worse persecution by the Anti-Christ...than the Jew has ever been put under in history. The Remnant also are not as far as I can tell sealed, and anyone who chooses Christ over Antichrist will find themselves under the same persecution as the Elect IMHO. If you'll remember it says that the Antichrist cannot be revealed until the Restrainer is removed out of the way. More than 90 percent of commentaries that I've read, state that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer. His Spirit in me has done nothing to dissuade me from this position. Why do I bring this up? Because He Fills us and Seals us and uses the Holy Spirit as our down payment for Heaven. God doesn't unseal the seal of a believer, therefore if the Holy Spirit which is in us, our seal, and our down payment is to be removed. We're going to be removed with it. Now I'm not claiming to be full of wisdom I'm simply sharing the understanding that God has led me to through the Holy Spirit. I think when all the evidence is taken into account, and the word is studied with prayerful supplication to the Father; the evidence points powerfully towards Christ taking us home before the Tribulation period, and us coming back with Him at the Glorious Appearing. That is our Blessed Hope. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 804 Registered: 7-2000 |
------------------ The Remnant also are not as far as I can tell sealed, and anyone who chooses Christ over Antichrist will find themselves under the same persecution as the Elect IMHO -------------------------------- But, why wouldn't they be sealed? They would have to be baptized to become Christian, right? And by being baptized they are sealed. Or are you saying that baptism would cease to have any meaning thus there is no seal? | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 207 Registered: 10-2009 |
Baptism isn't the seal/sign. Baptism is an outward sign that you have chosen Christ. However I'm quite certain that Baptism is not needed for salvation I think that the most common salvation will lead to quick death in the Tribulation. In other words if I were to be saved during the Tribulation I'd like to have me faith in God to have a clear effect on those near me. But the odds of me being baptized are slim- much like the thief on the cross. God will know those who have chosen Him in the Tribulation, at death their Spirit will go to be with Christ in Heaven. There is a huge slaughter of new believers during the Tribulation and it even mentions them in Revelation. A number so vast they cannot be numbered, standing before the throne. Revelation 6 states: A Multitude from the Great Tribulation 9 After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language, which no one could number, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were robed in white with palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: Salvation belongs to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb! 11 All the angels stood around the throne, the elders, and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and strength, be to our God forever and ever. Amen. 13 Then one of the elders asked me, "Who are these people robed in white, and where did they come from?" 14 I said to him, "Sir, [c] you know." Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. The One seated on the throne will shelter [d] them: 16 no longer will they hunger; no longer will they thirst; no longer will the sun strike them, or any heat. 17 Because the Lamb who is at the center of the throne will shepherd them; He will guide them to springs of living waters, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. We are already there, John is our representative, and you can find our celebration of Christ and the Throne in Revelation 4. All in all though we stand in Christ, and Christ knows when He's coming for us it is simply up to us to listen for His voice and always be ready. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 807 Registered: 7-2000 |
Rossbond wrote: Baptism isn't the seal/sign. Baptism is an outward sign that you have chosen Christ. However I'm quite certain that Baptism is not needed for salvation I think that the most common salvation will lead to quick death in the Tribulation. ----------------------------------end quote Now, we are getting somewhere! The problem with so many ex-SDA's is that they were pulled in too the SDA church (or indoctrinated as kids) and accepted a belief system that looked good. Only when we began digging, really diggin deep did we finally realize that something was rotten in Denmark and we needed to leave. Ross, that's what you have to do with 'Christian' literature outside of the SDA church. You have to seperate out the claims made by digging very deep and putting some thought into questions such as the 'who, what, where, when, and why' sort. Are you really sure that you can be sealed without Baptism? Are you sure that Baptism is nothing more than an empty symbol? That Baptism does nothing for you? How sure are you that you choose Christ? Or, put another way, just how free is your 'free-will'? And is decisional theology (accept Christ by assent, Baptism is optional) what the Bible really teaches? I don't need an answer to these questions---but you do if you're going to accept premise of the Tribulation is it's been laid out for you. Read carefully, in context, and ask questions of the material you're reading. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7374 Registered: 9-2006  |
Whats with the use of words such as 'empty symbolism' Loneviking? Whats up bud? Aren't we getting just a little sarcastic here? River | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 808 Registered: 7-2000 |
Nope, no sarcasm intended. Would you prefer 'symbolic alone'? How would you describe the view of Baptism by those who agree with decisional theology? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7375 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well, I'm confident of this, that Ross doesn't view baptism as an empty symbol regardless of how you describe it. No..I'm sure you didn't intend sarcasm, but what you wrote just doesn't sound like you that's all. Is his views, or my views for that matter, on the rapture a burr under your saddle? River | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 810 Registered: 7-2000 |
A burr? No, go back and re-read what I wrote. To summarize, an authors belief in foundational truths such as baptism, salvation and the like is often reflected in their eschatology. Read carefully, consider all the implications of the authors assertions. Why would you disagree with this when talking to new formers that are having to completely rebuild their theology? |
