| Author |
Message |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7377
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 8:06 am: |     |
I'm not disagreeing with anybody,ya lost me Loneviking.
Oh well, forget it. |
Rossbondreturns
Registered user
Username: Rossbondreturns
Post Number: 208
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 11:27 am: | |
Baptism is not empty, but nor is it required for Salvation.
All that is required is the "you proclaim with your mouth that Jesus is the Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead."
That is exactly why I brought up the thief on the cross.
Baptized...no.
Saved...YES! |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3739
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 2:35 pm: | |
quote:Are you really sure that you can be sealed without Baptism?
Yes:
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise," (Ephesians 1:13 NASB.)
You are making an external work (Baptism) the seal or the requirement for the seal, just as Adventism does with the Sabbath.
Jeremy |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 811
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 7:22 pm: | |
So, to sum up thus far: When I hear Rapture teachers saying that 'Gods' church doesn't experience the wrath of God but is raptured out'...I'm still confused.
The 'Remnant' don't need to be Baptized to be saved, any more than the church before the Rapture---right?
And the Remnant don't need to be sealed to be Christian...right?
And yet, they experience the wrath of God just like everybody else. So, Gods' church does experience Gods' wrath---because if this 'Remnant' is not Gods' people, then whose are they? And why should they be treated differently than those Christians before the Rapture? |
Rossbondreturns
Registered user
Username: Rossbondreturns
Post Number: 211
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 8:12 pm: | |
I never said the Remnant aren't God's people.
I did say that they are not The Church- becuase the Church is no longer on Earth.
Or The Elect because that is the Jewish Nation.
The remnant is treated differently because at the time of the Flood God said...that His Spirit would not contend with man forever.
(Not to mention again though I will) That the Holy Spirit was the restrianer that was removed when the Church was removed.
The Holy Spirit will no longer be around to seal as in the Church Age- it seems.
In the Tribulation God will know...since God is Spirit and everywhere when people choose Him, and when they die they will appear before the throne.
I don't understand everything, but Revelation is clear, the vast majority of new believers- the Remnant...will DIE and be martyred.
I know somewhere in the Bible that it says: (Paraphrased)"...when Christ returns to this earth will He find anyone who believes?"
Now I know that He will...the Elect...and not all Tribulation believers will be Martyred.
But the vast majority will be saved simply because God will know when their allegiance becomes devoted to Him, and when they die they will go to be with their savior.
Once again I don't understand how it all works, but that seems to be as clearly as I can describe it what happens to the Tribulation believer. |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 813
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 8:25 pm: | |
Quote:
The remnant is treated differently because at the time of the Flood God said...that His Spirit would not contend with man forever.
(Not to mention again though I will) That the Holy Spirit was the restrianer that was removed when the Church was removed.
The Holy Spirit will no longer be around to seal as in the Church Age- it seems. (End quote)
OK..so if the Holy Spirit isn't around anymore, then not only is there no sealing, but an even bigger question is 'how are individuals convicted of their need for a savior, and how are they brought to confess their Christian faith?'. It seems that this is your answer:
Quote:
In the Tribulation God will know...since God is Spirit and everywhere when people choose Him, and when they die they will appear before the throne (End quote)
'when people choose him'...Ross, that is complete free will, and goes against the Reformation credo of 'sola gratis' and 'sola fide'. Not to mention a whole lot of texts that indicate that you cannot come to Christ on your own. How do you resolve this problem? |
Rossbondreturns
Registered user
Username: Rossbondreturns
Post Number: 212
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 8:36 pm: | |
As I said I don't know.
What I do know is that people will choose Christ.
Whether through the Two Witnesses.
The 144,000 sealed Jewish Evangelists.
Or the Angels proclaiming the Gospel.
They will Choose. Maybe the Holy Spirit will be there but back to Old Testament styles...its possible.
But the bible says that many will come to a belief in God...and of those many the vast majority will be martyred.
God has made me entirely certain of where I'll be...and it's entirely certain that many will come to Him in the Tribulation...how it all works is beyond me...but it happens. It's spelled out in scripture and is beyond my understanding...and beyond my ability to put it into words.
However that doesn't mean that it's not there in the Bible, not stated as happening in the future, and won't be perfectly fulfilled in the future.
I'll freely admit this is in essence a strange answer, but it's also very honest.
God knows how it will happen.
He said through John under the guidance of the Holy Spirit it would happen.
It will happen.
That's that. |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 814
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 8:55 pm: | |
Well, Ross, I hope you can also understand why some such as myself are highly skeptical and also have some real problems believing the claims made by these Futurists authors. The underlying beliefs such as how one is saved, the work of the Holy Spirit, what does Baptism do and is it necessary---these are all beliefs that influence these end times scenarios. |
Rossbondreturns
Registered user
Username: Rossbondreturns
Post Number: 213
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 9:04 pm: | |
As I've said Thief on the Cross.
Was he baptized...no.
Was he saved...Obviously.
As for how people are saved I explained it as well as I could using human logic to interpret what the Bible states about people being saved in those times.
I can't do better than that, that's why I have to trust that God is telling the truth through His word...accept that He is...and let Him be sovereign.
He will save untold multitudes in the Tribulation, I personally believe it's not described in detail...because it's not for us to worry about.
We(The Church, His Bride) are in Heaven in Revelation 4.
The Multitudes from the Tribulation Martyrdom are mentioned in Revelation 6.
How God does the saving in the time of Tribulation is how He chooses to do it.
Though if you really think about it this could be as simple as being saved by faith just like it was in the Old Testament.
How many Old Testament believers were baptized to be saved...I'd argue none.
Just some friendly thoughts. |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 815
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 11:21 pm: | |
Two problems with using the thief on the cross;
1. Christ hadn't died yet, so the New Covenant wasn't in place yet.
2. Christ was the one giving the thief the dispensation of grace. Jesus is God, He's not bound by the same rules you and I are.
Old Testament believers weren't baptized, they were circumcised. That was the sign signifying that they had entered into that covenant.
Baptism is the sign of entering into the New Covenant. Didn't Jesus give the command to 'go unto all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?'. Can you find one instance in the book of Acts where believers were not immedietly baptized?
And that's not even touching the texts that talk about Baptism being the 'washing of regeneration' (Titus 3:5, Eph 5:26) or 1 Peter 3:21 where it says that Baptism does save us. I would bet Peter probably heard that from Christ Himself as the Gospel of Mark (Mark 16:16) records Jesus as saying 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved'.
But hey, if you choose not to believe it's necessary you're in the majority around here so don't sweat it. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3741
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 11:53 pm: | |
quote:Two problems with using the thief on the cross;
1. Christ hadn't died yet, so the New Covenant wasn't in place yet.
Christ died before the thief did.
Jeremy |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7381
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 12:42 am: | |
Loneviking, could you give me an instance in the Bible where baptism precedes salvation?
We are saved, then baptized. It is an act of obedience.
Acts 8:30-38 is one instance where Philip is preaching to a man, lets listen in.
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Acts 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Acts 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Acts 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Notice Philip says "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest." Not thou must.
You use Peter I 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
You seem to be using only part of that text "even baptism doth also now save us"
The whole of the text implies (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
No man can have the answer of a good conscience toward God without obedience to God.
The Bible plainly says that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness is as idolatry.
I would say this, that if you have believed on the Lord and haven't been baptized, you best get it done when you have the opportunity.
But now brother, we can differ in opinion and have peace.
This last sentence of yours: But hey, if you choose not to believe it's necessary you're in the majority around here so don't sweat it.
The 'Majority' around here has never said that we can live in disobedience and rebellion. Not Ross, not me,not anybody and that is what you seem to imply by that last sentence.
I would remind you of Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
That good works is obedience to Christ and to love one another. Water cannot save you because baptism by water is a works of obedience to God following his showing of mercy and grace on us undeserving sinners.
River |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 816
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 1:08 am: | |
We'll have to agree to disagree, River. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7383
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 1:50 am: | |
Well, I can do that in love then. 
It don't matter that we disagree on something to me.
I'm not trying to form Longviking into my own image.
Nobody wants to be me anyhow! |
Thegoldenway
Registered user
Username: Thegoldenway
Post Number: 43
Registered: 5-2011
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 6:03 am: | |
I'm going to throw this out there for you guys.
Remember that Jesus is our Substitute....right. His life is our life and He died in place of us....so wouldn't it stand to reason that His baptism would also count for us too? My former boss became a believer just before he died. However, due to his health issue, he was not able to be baptized, his heart wasn't strong enough for him to do that at that time. But him not being baptized before he died I believe had no bearing on whether he is with God now. I believe he is with God....baptism or not. In things like this I just let God be God for He is the Righteous Judge and I know that He will judge in total righteousness regarding each person taking their circumstances into consideration in whatever He decides. I do know this for a certainty....He wants all to come to repentance because He truly wants to save everyone.
lynn |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 817
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 8:08 am: | |
Lynn, (with apologies to River for changing my mind a bit)...I would agree with you in this case.
Faith comes by hearing the word, and faith is a gift and work of God. That quietly growing faith that leads one to seek baptism seems to be where your friend was at. Since God was working in His life, I would be pretty certain that God would be able to assure him of eternal life.
Bill |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 2047
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 4:31 am: | |
Popping back in for just a little bit (I've been gone in Fukushima for two weeks since I last looked at this thread)...
Something in the Member's area really pertains to these things, to investigating the root of the teaching in question: http://www.formeradventist.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-auth.cgi?lm=1312282537&file=/4529/11451.html |
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