| Author | Message | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 487 Registered: 7-2010 |
Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.(Matthew 21:33-46) This is an interesting parable and we can see how Jesus is referring to the vineyard owner sending His servants to collect or receive the fruits of the vineyard. We recognize that Jesus is referring to prophets that had been sent to the Israelites prior to His coming. And with that comment we recognize that Jesus is referring to Himself as the Son of the vineyard owner. But re-read this parable and take note that after the Son, no more servants were sent. This is quite interesting because of the fact we have those that have claimed to be prophets such as Mohammed, Joseph Smith and Ellen White just to name a few. Paul wrote in Ephesians 4: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:11-13) If you look at what Paul wrote this is all concerning the church. This is to bring the church into unity that's what he wrote "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Why? "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.(Ephesians 4:14-16) God doesn't give/send a prophet to divide the church. I don't recall any of the Old Testament prophets doing this. Their job was to call the Israelites to repentance and back to God. This is exactly what John the Baptist was doing until Jesus began His ministry on earth. We can look at the Pharisees and see that what had happened is a religious cult had moved into/taken over the Temple. They placed heavy burdens on people by ruling them with the law, laws they had added to, but based off of God's laws for the Israelites. They tried their best to put Jesus under that same bondage, but the law Giver always knew what He meant when He gave the law to Moses. But even this religious cult would not repent of their sins. Instead we see the vineyard owners Son being slain by this religious cult. Completing the parable up to this point. Mohammed claims that the angel Gabriel gave him the Quran. That is, recited the words that make up the Quran. In the text of this book, it clearly denies the Deity and Divinity that is Jesus Christ. According to the Quran, Jesus didn't die on the cross, but instead had a "stunt double" an imposter that looked very much like Him, to take His place on the cross. "[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure." http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=114839 Despite what the Gospels say about Jesus and how the angel Gabriel played a part in it. According to Mohammed, Jesus, recognized by the Muslim community as "Isa" didn't die on the cross. Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet as well. He claimed he saw Jesus and God and a third person I'm not sure who, in the woods one day as a 14 year old boy. He then received from the angel Moroni four gold plates that nobody ever saw. These plates contained a continuation of the Gospel message. Paul in his conversion from Saul became an Apostle, so if Joseph Smith met Jesus in the woods wouldn't that have made him an Apostle instead of a prophet? But the thing is, the Mormon church was born and pulled away from mainstream Christianity because they had another Gospel. Ellen White is said by the SDA church to be a prophet as well. The church got its start from the Millerite movement in the 1800's more specifically 1843-44. When the date setting predictions of William Miller failed, and he later repented of his wrong doing. Uriah Smith and Ellen White formed the SDA church. Based off of the misinterpretations of Scripture made by William Miller. The SDA church regards EGW as an "inspired pen" a prophet for the church. Until recently (not sure how long) the SDA church pulled away from mainstream Christianity and still today see the rest of Christianity as lost. They are "the remnant church". To be unified with the SDA church, you must accept EGW as a prophet as the church requires and includes in their 28 Fundamental Beliefs. As a matter of fact to be unified with any one of these groups, you must accept their prophet too. In Old Testament times false prophets were to be stoned to death upon discovery. (Deuteronomy 13) Had any one of these so called prophets lived in Old Testament times they would have been stoned to death before they ever got the chance to build doctrine that does not unify the church, but instead divides it. That's what Ephesians 4 is saying. That prophets are for the church, the Body of Christ. Christ is not going to divide His church. A house divided cannot stand He even said that! You see folks the reason there isn't a prophet or servant mentioned in this parable after the Son was sent, is because Jesus told us He would send the Holy Spirit. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:25-26) It is through the Holy Spirit that we recognize a true prophet that God may send to the church. But there is no need for one because we have the Holy Spirit, we have Him here with us. Why would He send a lesser light to do what He Himself does everyday within us. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit we are convicted of our sin. It is the power of the Holy Spirit alone that lets us know that what we've just heard is true. If we rely on the Holy Spirit we can't go wrong! If I've said anything about these three people that isn't true please post a correction of that for this post. This is my understanding of the three mentioned. | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 93 Registered: 10-2010 |
Don't forget to add Charles Taze Russell of the Jehovah's Witnesses to the list of false prophets (plus Rutherford.) | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 490 Registered: 7-2010 |
Is he considered a prophet by the JW church? (Like EGW and Joseph Smith). | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7315 Registered: 9-2006  |
Dljc, Quote: It is through the Holy Spirit that we recognize a true prophet that God may send to the church. But there is no need for one because we have the Holy Spirit, we have Him here with us. Why would He send a lesser light to do what He Himself does everyday within us. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit we are convicted of our sin. It is the power of the Holy Spirit alone that lets us know that what we've just heard is true. If we rely on the Holy Spirit we can't go wrong! DLJC, not speaking of the false prophets you spoke of, but didn’t you just contradict yourself? You quoted: Paul wrote in Ephesians 4: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; . But there is no need for one because we have the Holy Spirit, we have Him here with us. Why would He send a lesser light to do what He Himself does everyday within us. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit we are convicted of our sin. It is the power of the Holy Spirit alone that lets us know that what we've just heard is true. If we rely on the Holy Spirit we can't go wrong! Then you said: . But there is no need for one because we have the Holy Spirit, we have Him here with us. Why would He send a lesser light to do what He Himself does everyday within us. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit we are convicted of our sin. It is the power of the Holy Spirit alone that lets us know that what we've just heard is true. If we rely on the Holy Spirit we can't go wrong! If there is no need for them, then why would he send them? Ephesians 4 gives you your answer: Paul wrote in Ephesians 4: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:11-13) Also in Corinthians I 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: The old Testament prophets were used to give instruction to the people as the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. The New Testament GIFT of prophecy is for the function of the upbuilding of the church as you said, and never divides the church. The word applys equally to Ellen White, Joseph Smith, Mohamed, or Joe blow, you or me, the test is, does it perfect the saints? Edify the body of Christ? Promote the work of the ministry? Upbuild the church? Paul went on to teach Corinthians I 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many. Corinthians I 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? Corinthians I 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? Corinthians I 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? Corinthians I 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. Corinthians I 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? Corinthians I 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. Corinthians I 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Corinthians I 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: Corinthians I 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. Corinthians I 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: Corinthians I 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. Corinthians I 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. The way I understood what you wrote you ask the question ‘Why would we need them, but you gave the answer before you asked the question.  Or did I miss something? : Or are we into telling God what we don’t need? Cheers River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7316 Registered: 9-2006 |
Maybe I'm just dizzy headed because of all these pain meds I'm on. Those hospitals sure got the good stuff! | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 491 Registered: 7-2010 |
Actually River, if you look at what I said there, it appears I'm contradicting Scripture as well. Here's what I said: "It is through the Holy Spirit that we recognize a true prophet that God may send to the church. But there is no need for one because we have the Holy Spirit, we have Him here with us. Why would He send a lesser light to do what He Himself does everyday within us. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit we are convicted of our sin. It is the power of the Holy Spirit alone that lets us know that what we've just heard is true. If we rely on the Holy Spirit we can't go wrong! " My thought process at the time of writing that was geared towards the Holy Spirit. We don't need a prophet to interpret Scripture for us. The Holy Spirit does. Each one of these "prophets" I mentioned had a different message. Each one had their own "gospel" message. "Why would He send a lesser light to do what He Himself does everyday?" Mohammed claimed the angel Gabriel gave him the Quran. Joseph Smith claimed the angel Moroni gave him the 4 gold plates. EGW claimed an angel guide told her things. And could have even been the angel Gabriel from time to time. Why would He send a lesser light (an angel) to do what He does everyday through the Holy Spirit? See what I mean? Each one of these people attempted to set themselves up as an authority by claiming what they did. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7319 Registered: 9-2006 |
I didn't know whether it was the pills I was on that made me dizzy or whut! | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 492 Registered: 7-2010 |
River, I wasn't your medications. It only appears that there is a contradiction, but there isn't one. Saul on the road to Damascus was met by Jesus Himself (Acts 9 Saul's conversion). John in Revelation 4:2 says "And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." The point is, since Jesus breathed on the Disciples/Apostles, the Holy Spirit has been present in this world. The day of Pentecost comes to mind as well. So the point I was making is, why would God use an angel when the Holy Spirit can and does the same thing? I find it hard to believe that Gabriel could tell Mary she would be impregnated by the Holy Spirit with our Lord and Savior, and tell Zacharias to name his son John. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. (Luke 1:13-19) I find it hard to believe that Gabriel could tell anything other than the truth. So for two of these prophets to say he said something different from what Scripture teaches, brings their claim into question. After all, we see from the text from Luke 1, Gabriel says he stands in the presence of God. Gabriel isn't going to lie and continue to stand in the presence of God. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7324 Registered: 9-2006 |
Oh I'm with you old son, I knew what you were getting at. River | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 493 Registered: 7-2010 |
Ok, I don't mind clearing things up though. ;) |
