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Message |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7296
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 8:01 pm: |     |
Free2dance,
That is really good stuff you got there.
 River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7297
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 8:03 pm: | |
My thought on it is if hell wasn't all that bad, would God have went to such extremes to help us avoid it? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12716
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 11:46 pm: | |
Free2dance, really great post. I've come to see all of those things you listed above as "subsets" of Love. God's love is multi-faceted, as you said.
I'm struck by 1 Cor 13:13: "But faith, hope, love abide these three; but the greatest of these is love."
This verse follows Paul's listing various spiritual gifts and saying that when "the perfect comes", the gifts will cease. The reason? We won't need them because we'll be in the presence of God. But "higher" than the gifts are faith, hope, and love...and love is even greater than faith and hope.
The reason? We will be in the presence of the Lord Jesus and will no longer see as in a glass darkly but will see face-to-face. We'll know as we are known. In other words, faith and hope will be fulfilled; we will finally exist in the reality to which our faith and hope was anchored.
But LOVE will still be there, because it is greater than them all! Love includes all of God's attributes. Since the Bible says "God is love," then all His attributes are components of His love. His love is wider and higher and longer and deeper than anything we can imagine...and yet Paul prays that we will know this love that surpasses knowledge (Eph. 3:15-19).
Again, great post!
Colleen |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1209
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 12:05 pm: | |
Free2dance,
I agree that there are many aspects of God. No argument there. But I also believe God is consistant in His nature. That is probably where my limited understanding leads me into confusion when I try to process this debate about hell.
you wrote:
How can God be both love and and God of wrath?
J: God is a protector. Sometimes war is required.
F: How can God be just and merciful? How can God be good and jealous?
J: Two questions. He is just in that Christ satisfied the demands of the law , including the penalty and took our place.
and
Jealous, I understand that. When you love deeply, you protect. God speaks of us as a marriage. Faithful. I get that. In fact, my x wife was never jealous. I wished often that she were. It would tell me that she valued our realationship. There is a jealousy that is pure.
That God is Jealous is a comfort to me.
F: How can we even begin to understand God?
J: God so "loved" the world.........
F: Hell is not the opposite of love. These two things can co-exist.
J: Hell is an event, it cannot exist in a perfect creation. Hell is a correction point.
Not a way of life.
F: Here is another question for you. Why is it easier to believe that God would burn and torture people alive for a definite period of time than to believe that he might throw our immaterial (therefore inflammable) spirits to utter darkness away from the presence of God?
J: This question is confusing but I will attempt to answer it.
There appears to be an understanding that the deeds done in the body will be answered for by those who are lost. The penalty of sin is death.
I am not clear as to what the duration is , or how that would be decided. But I believe it is finite and ends in death.
I do not think that those who are resurrected into the second ressurection will be given any kind of imortal body. Since God has stated that He is able to destroy both body and soul in hell, the point is rendered mute. Both are destroyed, death is complete.
As for the concept that our souls or spirits will be cast away from , isolated from God as a punishment, or that they would be non-flamable or indestructable, I don't think that is the case either. This kind of follows a subtheory that once God creates a living soul, it is forever. But the Bible says that the lifeforce (breath) goes back to God. All these are specualtions and not the most important question.
Would God maintain a place of suffering for eternity while also maintaining a place of bliss and perfection. Would God have abosolutely no compassion or mercy for the lost souls in torment through the eons while tenderly loving the redeemed? Consistancy..........
F: Whatever hell is...it is horrible. If God is going to be the peace corp, fluffy, lovey, Barney the Dinosaur type, then why wouldn't He just speak people out of existance instead of burn them at all?
J: Because there is a choice to be made in this age. Because His creation has been corrupted. Because a rescue is in progress.
Because the penalty of sin is death and as I said before, a deterrent is that there will be a reckoning for the deeds done in the body.
Hell is punishment (for the period of time it lasts), and it is an end to the old order.
It will also pass away. A new order will emerge.
F: Eve questioning Gods character on the basis of her not understanding something about Him is what got us into the whole mess. I am not saying we are obligated to have faith in mans ideas and interpretation of scripture, but we are certainly called to have faith in what God says.
J: I agree. We should have faith in what God Says. But lets be clear that the message is clearly understood. In this case, I do not think that the nature of hell is understood very well.
F: It is also important to remember that there is a reason that God gave teaching as one of the gifts of the Spirit. If you believe in Spiritual gifts and the Holy Spirits teaching and illumination in our lives, than simply pray that God lead you to someone with this gift that you are willing and able to learn from and for His illumination to help you both see and deeply know what is true.
J: Indeed, I do believe that. There are books, articles and people that do reach my understanding, that do help me recieve.
This is why I am on this forum.
F:Whatever Hell is, it is not peaceful or lovey. God's ways are above our ways. At some point, we have to let go of our need to hold onto what is "normal" to us or what has held our "reality" together.
J: Normal or reality can mean many things.
We move away from pain if we can.
Accepting our lot in pain may be God's will. That is a hard thing to embrace. But you have to ask the question, does God want me to give up altogeher? Or does He want me to keep up the fight and stay at it, pressing on, forgetiing what is behind and trying to learn from Him.
F: We have to let God be God- whatever that looks like as described in scripture- and believe that when Jesus talks about fire, hell, utter darkness, or weeping and gnashing of teeth we take the warning and leave it there.
J: Absolutely, God is God.
I accept the words that are written. But not the conclusions. Here is the thing. The tough question I ask myself. What IF God has decided to have an eternal hell of never ending punishment. What if it is true?
Then that means fear becomes the main thing forever. Fear is then greater than love.
There are many aspects of sufferinng that I do not comprehend from a facet of love to begin with. But at least I grasp that they migrate towards a peaceable fruit.
I ask you, what is the purpose of an eternal hell? How will suffering endlessy glorify God or bring perfection and harmony to all of creation?
It is not consistant with Love being the supreme aspect of God.
F:So what if people worshiping beside you have different ideas of hell...they are still your brothers and sisters in Christ. If you think they have it wrong, be sad for them- but don't reject them. They need your love as much as you need theirs.
J: I agree. It is not about rejecting them. It is about them rejecting me. To fit in, I have tried to at least learn where teh mainliners are coming from and how they got there. But I have also tried to maintain a sense of integrity and ability to answer about my convictions. In approaching a new church, the last thing I want is to be dealing with alienation beciase I said something that presses a hot button. Or to get a rubber stamp right out of the gate. Heresy, hang em!
Yes , I am capable of keeping silent about things that may cause division.
As I have said, somethings have no answer.
Lastly, I am not judging others, though things like being OK with an eternal hell perplexes me.
This cannot be answered except that it goes back to trusting that God is perfectly God.
Jim
(Message edited by jim02 on July 03, 2011) |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1971
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 2:18 pm: | |
Jim; hell is the absence of God. We all have a choice in this life. To be with God or not. To be with God is to not only enjoy Him, but to enjoy the good things that He makes. Ultimately, everyone chooses where they will be - with God or not. Those who don't choose to be with God, are choosing to have nothing to do with God, to have none of His goodness, or His love, joy, peace, light, comfort or anything else that God gives. |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1211
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 3:51 pm: | |
Asurpise, I have had heard this expression before along with Hell is the separation from God.
What verse says it that way?
These words, separation and absence from God, is more likely a drawn conclusion that suggests the results of and a possible definition of hell.
The Bible says hell is the lake of fire and death is the result. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3734
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 8:35 pm: | |
"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thessalonians 1:9 NASB.)
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12719
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2011 - 12:43 am: | |
And this:
"These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved."
(2 Peter 2:17 ESV)
Colleen |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1212
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2011 - 5:48 pm: | |
Interesting.
I will have to read these .
Thank You for the verses. If you have more, please let me know. |
Gcfrankie
Registered user
Username: Gcfrankie
Post Number: 801
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 11:26 am: | |
I have also pondered this question on hell. The understanding I have come to is connected to when the new earth is tempted again after the 1,000 yr reign. I take it back to Adam and Eve where they lived in a sin-free world until they were tempted and sinned where we have always lived in a sinful world. We will live in a perfect world and walk with the Lord as they did and then will be tempted again and if we fall this time then there will not be a second chance and that is the eternal death. This does not mean that I can deliberately go out and sin.
Isn't the lake of fire for Satan and the angels who fell with him only to be tormented? Not for sinners? |
Free2dance
Registered user
Username: Free2dance
Post Number: 361
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 9:16 am: | |
Jim, I’m sorry I have been gone. I have not been ignoring you. It's just gotten very busy for my family lately. I am still running the treadmill of laundry and house cleaning before company comes this afternoon but I do want to address one of your questions.
"I ask you, what is the purpose of an eternal hell? How will suffering endlessly glorify God or bring perfection and harmony to all of creation?"
I am going to respond to your question and then rephrase it a bit in a way I can answer it, borrowing from my pastor’s words.
The way your question is worded leads to an answer built only on mans musings. This type of conversation is not reliable for landing at truth and if this is going to be a battle of the intellect I would loose anyway. My faith cannot be built on mans best answer or I will simply be fooled yet again. Man does not know reality, to base my peace and faith on the best thought out theory is allowing the blind to lead me to this very hell I have been freed from only by complete surrender to Christ. While this may come across to you as me being a lemming, I can't loose sleep over that. I choose to follow the only One who can lead and I do so with the absolute desire to not think for myself but take my truth from His word only. I have learned even in my marriage that my endlessly thinking every thing through all the time can often only be ended by my going to my husband and allowing him to offer me perspective and letting whatever I am obsessing over go. It is too easy to think that if we struggle with something long enough we will simply arrive at the right answer. It is very often the act of submission that rescues us from chasing our tail when what we should be doing is whatever God has asked us to be doing.
I have often thought that once Christians are saved, the enemy knows we are no longer His, therefore the best thing he can do is keep us busy so we do less damage to his kingdom and keep out of his way. I think he does this by getting us hyper focused on whatever he knows will work and we don't even see it coming. Here we are pondering the creator and His ways...seems like a good thing to do, and in the meantime we are not obeying and submitting to God and His desires for us.
So, with *all* that being said, I cannot answer the question as you worded it and do not feel I have to since it is not one posed in scripture. However, I have heard it asked, "What is the point in believing in Hell?" and the incredible off the cuff answer from our pastor was, "What is the point in believing in gravity?" The rest of his response is recorded in 2011 Q & A panel from FAF weekend.
Jim, whatever it is...it IS because Jesus said it is. Why torment yourself over what it looks like? Unless you are still trying to decide if this is a God you can serve, it shouldn't matter to you what it looks like or how long it lasts. If you are His, then let this go and allow Him to know something you don't. If others are rejecting you for this, perhaps they aren't safe people to share that part of your heart with and remember that the "body" isn't perfect but the body needs every member working together. However, what may be people admonishing you in truth and love could come across to you as rejection. Pray that God gives you eyes to see their hearts toward you and that He would put you in a safe place for you to grow in love.
These are again just my opinions. We all approach God and our faith differently. I know that. My husband and I are drawn by different things- so perhaps I’m not the best person to be having this conversation with. There are others who need science and data to confirm their faith... What I can tell you is that I'll pray that you find a church that you can feel at home in.
“24And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” Heb 10:24-25
“be filled with the Spirit, 19addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, 20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,” Eph 5:18b-20
These words to us are holy and inspired words. The fellowship with other believers that my husband and I receive each week truly is a life line in the midst of the daily spiritual battle for our mind and focus. Not because we see everything the same way, but because we are together. We can say nothing at all but sit together and be silent and somehow it provides a deep restoration within that I cannot explain, although Deitrich Bonhoeffer does a pretty good job:
"The physical presence of other Christians is a source of incomparable joy and strength to the believer." ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Jim, you must find a church home...you just must.
Praying... |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12729
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 4:36 pm: | |
Free, that is an amazing post. Thank you.
Colleen |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1494
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2011 - 5:48 pm: | |
Free, I know this was posted for Jim but it was meant for me also.(I am sure for many of us)
"whatever it is...it IS because Jesus said it is. Why torment yourself over what it looks like? Unless you are still trying to decide if this is a God you can serve, it shouldn't matter to you what it looks like or how long it lasts. If you are His, then let this go and allow Him to know something you don't."
You are so right ! Only God has all knowledge. In comparison we know so very little. But it's ok. He is God, we have to let HIM be the one with all knowledge.
I have opinions and gut feelings about many many things and left wondering about so much... but it is ok. Because as His children, we will have all eternity to learn the answers to our many questions. And even then.... I don't believe we will ever know "everything" because even though we will be with Him in Heaven, still.... HE is GOD and we are not. I have no desire to become a god in any form, I will be very thankful to just be there with Him and worship at His feet.
Francie |
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