| Author |
Message |
Angelcat
Registered user
Username: Angelcat
Post Number: 328
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 1:38 pm: |     |
I think I get what you are saying River. As an Adventist, my church had a prayer team. These were people who could pray wonderful long prayers in public, something I can't do, so clearly, intercession was NOT my gift. So, people like me asked people on the prayer warrior team to pray.
I've discvered since then, intercession IS my gift. I still can't pray publicly, but I can pray. I still ask for prayers, but no longer b/c I can't pray. And i have friends who ask me to pray. God will also tell me when I need to pray for someone.
I do sometimes use a prayer journal when I pray. Writing down what God tells me really helps when i"m under enemy attack and the Enemy is trying to sound like God. Prayer journalling really helped me learn to recognize God's voice, and I use to prayer journal every day. Now, I rarely do. So, I think tools have their place, but yes, they shouldn't replace faith.
Adventists are big on form when it comes to prayer. I was taught that other than for extenuating circumstances, you ALWAYS closed your eyes,folded your hands, and usually knelt for prayer. And it wasn't explicity said, but there was definitely the feeling that some people's prayers were heard more than others.
I have issues with TV evangelists who sell things like this, whether it's shawls, jewelry, oil, or whatever. I annoint my doorposts with oil every so often, and also when certain people visit. I don't need special annointing oil, I use whatever i have. I don't carry it with me everywhere, and I don't hold off praying til I have it.
I think scamming money from people under the guise of enhancing their spiritual lives is spiritual abuse. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7251
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 8:01 pm: | |
Well, maybe they try to justify it by trying to raise money for some purpose or other, but then again if you sell something that would lead anyone to believe that if they just get this prayer shawl, or olive oil they say is from Israel and in doing so God will answer your prayer,s, even if they don't say it outright, if it isn't spiritual abuse its bordering on it.
I'm really leery of making Gods house a house of merchandise and we oughta be careful with that.
If one person whose having troubles or sickness in the family or what not, thinks if they can just get that prayer shawl, then everything will be all right and straight for them, then the person hawking it becomes guilty. Me, I just don't need that kind of guilt on my life.
Angelcat, I guess I lost out when I have sat and prayed with just my shorts on, hair sticking straight up and hadn't got my morning shower so probably smelt awful too and just sitting in my office chair. Ha.
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7252
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 8:05 pm: | |
And with my creaky knees I don't dare get down there, I probably wouldn't be able to get up. and my wife is so disabled she couldn't help me, so we'd both be down there with our feet and legs flailing like a roach on raid.  |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2841
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 8:22 pm: | |
I agree Angelcat, "scamming money from people under the guise of enhancing their spiritual lives is spiritual abuse." |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1807
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 8:55 pm: | |
What if a church has a shawl/quilt/blanket, etc. ministry, where a team of retirees meet and make the shawls, and when someone is in need (physical, spiritual, etc.) they pray over the shawl and includes the person in their prayer list. And then give, as a present, the shawl to to sick.? No money involved. The team even buys the material.
Hec |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 9259
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 10:59 pm: | |
Both of the churches I have attended have a ministry like that. No charge to the person being given the shawl/quilt/blanket. It is a gift from the heart.
Diana L |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2842
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 24, 2011 - 11:10 pm: | |
A shawl ministry where the shawls/blankets/whatever are prayed over and then given to those who need them is totally different from a 'ministry' where 'prayer shawls' are offered for sale to the gullible. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12702
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 1:03 am: | |
Well said, Mary.
Colleen |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1193
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 11:22 am: | |
Hi River, you make a good point.
The thing I do not like about objects is that we are placing a faith in the object as if it was the reciever of God's power. But I also see where there are some examples of that. Though , generally speaking, God was directly involved in those cases. Such as the Serpent on the staff, the Ark of the Covenant, Jesus applied mud to the blind man's eyes, the woman who touched Jesus.
There are even examples of the Apostle's healing from a cloth.
But did they teach this concept in our day and age. Was it a church instruction?
On the other hand, the instructions for enhanced or magnified power of prayer include, fervent prayer, praying for others, church prayer, corporate prayer, fasting and prayer, instant in prayer, praying in the name of Christ, praying according to God's will, and then there is the introspection of qualified prayer. Have we repented of whatever besets us, are in we in willing sin, are we blocking the answers to our prayers by our own sins? These can be a source of confusion and loss of faith when we go down the path of being good enough to pray or be heard.
We pray for healing for our loved ones, and watch. Time and the effects of age or disease march on. Life gets stuck in care and misery, and our prayers seem to be ineffective. We start guessing. What if I try this , maybe that will work. I am not good enough, but so and so is. Maybe God will answer them on my behalf.
Then the object amplifiers. I do not want to say they are gimmicks, but they are abused in that manner in some cases.
What is prayer about. Maybe it is about focus and trust more than anything. It is about abiding and being able to accept come what may.
Prayer can be the path that prepares the soul to draw ever closer to Christ, but unanswered prayer can be used by the devil to destroy and condemn.
Prayer is about greater faith, added strength to the soul, to keep one's mind in perfect peace.
That is a concept I have but touched the edge of.
I asked God in a prayer this morning. Father, if you are trying to help me, please shine a light upon the path so I can see it.
That is half the battle in prayer, we don't know how or if God is answering the prayers.
I will not suggest that the shawl or any other symbolic object is without merit. I think it adds an element of solemnity to a prayer time for some. Maybe that is a good thing.
Indeed, atmosphere and reverence is being lost sight of these days.
Jim
(Message edited by jim02 on June 25, 2011) |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1147
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2011 - 1:15 pm: | |
quote:These can be a source of confusion and loss of faith when we go down the path of being good enough to pray or be heard.
We pray for healing for our loved ones, and watch. Time and the effects of age or disease march on. Life gets stuck in care and misery, and our prayers seem to be ineffective. We start guessing. What if I try this , maybe that will work. I am not good enough, but so and so is. Maybe God will answer them on my behalf.
Yes Jim, this is a great trap that many people get caught up within. But when God looks at believers, He sees the perfect robe of Christ's righteousness not our failures. God has already declared that we are righteous, so how could He go against His own word about us? I think the challenge for us is in accepting God's will when it doesn't align with our hopes. Think about it, how often do we really pray "Thy will be done" and mean, rather than bringing our list of what we "will" to happen and expect God to grant our will in all things. I don't believe unanswered prayer can be used by the Devil. He might accuse, after all that is what he does, but we have One greater than Him forever at our side. I think that many times prayer is more about helping us come to accept God's will, even if we don't understand it, than it is about getting what we asked for.
Is a shawl any better or worse than a prayer journal? I don't think the shawl is the problem, but so-called Christian leaders manipulating and stealing from people is reprehensible. You don't see any of the Apostles (early church leaders) doing something remotely similar. |
|
