| Author |
Message |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3678
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2011 - 12:35 pm: |     |
Colleen,
Hmmm. Well, if you look at an interlinear, the Greek is translated identically in Mark 9:48 and Matthew 25:8 (except for the singular vs. plural, of course):
quote:"the fire not is-being-extinguished (is-going-out)" (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mar9.pdf)
"shiners (torches) of-us are-being-extinguished (are-going-out)" http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mar9.pdf)
And in Matthew 12:20, it has:
quote:"flax smouldering not He-shall-be-extinguishing" (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat12.pdf)
Jeremy |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3679
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2011 - 12:37 pm: | |
Thanks, Chris.
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12620
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2011 - 11:29 pm: | |
I see it, Jeremy. The transliteration from Greek is indeed passive on all counts!
Thanks, Chris!
Colleen |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1590
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2011 - 9:00 am: | |
So far Jim is the only person from an annihilatist perspective who has taken a stab at a few versus of scripture from Rev. 21 (Thanks Jim). It's not clear to me that Rev. 21 is really meant to teach on Hell as it doesn't mention it, but I do appreciate Jim posting a specific section of scripture.
I'm still hoping that someone from the same perspective will post an entire passage *specifically* teaching on Hell and will do a careful line by line exegesis of it for us. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1776
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2011 - 4:02 pm: | |
I am not theologian nor apologist, but it seems to me that the following passages refer to hell:
quote:Mal (4:1) NASB “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.”
All the arrogant and evildoer will be chaff which will be burned leaving neither root nor branch. In other words leaving nothing.
quote:(Mat 3:12) NASB “His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
The chaff (which was already mention in Mal) will be burned with unquenchable fire. The chaff will be burned. The fire is unquenchable, not the chaff. Now one can say, and what will keep the fire going? Then I'll ask what started it in the first place? The chaff was thrown into the fire after the fire was going. The fire did not need the chaff.
Hec |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1438
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - 8:11 am: | |
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Wondering.... if the GIFT of God is eternal LIFE, then how can the wages of sin (death) also be "eternal life" ? How can the wages of sin be both life and death ? To be separated from God could be termed a form of "death" since there would be no hope of ever going back into Gods grace... but still, if punishment in Hell is eternal, conscious punishment, then it is still a form of "life".
I just don't get it...I just cant help but feel that God Himself would have pain through all eternity knowing He was keeping a place of torment going on and on through eternity justifiable though it might be. Honestly it makes me feel WORSE for Jesus than for those in an "everlasting, never ending hell" Why would He choose to keep those souls alive when they could be punished for their wicked deeds and then destroyed ? No matter how terrible the sin might be "eternity" is a very very long time to be punished and being conscious of that punishment. It just seems that even such as Hitler would after a certain time be put out of his misery and go into complete non existence.
Not saying I am right... but looking at it the other way just does not make sense to me.
also,
"Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
He is ABLE to destroy both body and soul in hell,and it is just my personal "gut feeling" that is what He will do after an appointed and appropriate time of punishment.
I am of course human and I cannot know Gods ways and reasons and I trust that which ever way He passes judgment WILL be fair and just according to His will and not mine/ours.
God is LOVE, and yes I realize He is also a God of Justice, but I believe His "justice" will be tempered with mercy. |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1931
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - 9:02 am: | |
Here is a quick overview of the history of the theory of annihilationism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism
I didn't realize that it's relatively "new" to Christianity (within the last 150 years) and largely related to Adventism, although the Jehovah's Witnesses and a few others hold to this belief.
Not sure if this history matters (and maybe it doesn't with Annihilationists), but I believe there's validity in comparing beliefs with the early church.
 Leigh Anne |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1593
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - 10:30 am: | |
Hec,
I believe most (nearly all) commentators would disagree that these passages are dealing with the experience of Hell. This is judgment language to be sure, but I believe it is focused on a different event. Would you mind going back for us and exegeting Mal 4:1-6 and Matt 3:1-12 line by line? I actually think there is a link between these two passages, but the context points primarily to the first coming of Christ, i.e. the era John (Elijah) ushers in where the ultimate judgment (or lack thereof) is belief in Christ, (although we might surmise an even greater ultimate fulfillment in the second coming). Determining whether this is correct or not is best done by exegeting a line at a time through the whole unit of thought rather than looking at texts in isolation. If you would be willing to do that for us that would be most helpful. Thanks. |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1594
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - 10:43 am: | |
Skeeter,
Could you cite scriptural passages that define death as non-existence? Eternal death is far different from eternal life and the two should not be confused. No one is suggesting that eternal death is really life, it's not. However, I am not aware of either state being scripturally defined as non-existence. That's to read an old SDA understanding back into the Bible where it doesn't exist. Death is a separation, not non-existence. If I'm wrong on this, then good NT didactic passages making this clear would be helpful (as opposed to OT wisdom literature which has a different purpose - See here for why: http://bereanmind.blogspot.com/2010/09/state-of-dead-bible-study-part-v.html ).
Also, the greek word being translated as destroy in Matth 10:28 basically means to ruin or to make of no use. It is the same word Jesus uses to refer to wine skins that have burst. The wine skins do not cease to exist, they're simply ruined and of no use. The word does NOT mean "non-existent" and neither does our English word "destroy". that's reading an added meaning into something when it's not there. If I slam my fist into my computer right now I've certainly destroyed it, but it's still setting right here on my desk staring at me. Useless and broken to be sure, but it's still right here. So we should understand the Greek word to mean just what it does and not read our own definition back into it. |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1595
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - 10:50 am: | |
Grace, I think you bring up a good point, in fact it's the very point I hoped to bring out in starting a thread dedicated to bringing biblical exegesis to bare on the matter. The Church overwhelmingly throughout the last 2000 years has confirmed that the the experience of Hell is eternal. Was this because nearly every great scholar for the last 2000 years was ignorant? No, certainly not. It's because when you exegete didactic passages dealing specifically with Hell, the plain meaning of the passages are that Hell is an eternal experience. No one would read these passages and naturally come away with a different notion if they are purely objective. Annihilationism always starts with other concerns and preconceived notions and is then read back into the Bible where it doesn't exist. |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 1036
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - 2:35 pm: | |
First off, I want to acknowledge both Hec and Skeeter for posting Scripture to discuss on the topic. The only way that any of us are going to arrive at a more complete understanding of this difficult and emotional topic is by turning to the Word of God. In your defense on this subject, I will point out to Chris that most of us aren't that convinced by what the majority of Bible commentators conclude about the passage. We are concerned whether the explanation makes the best sense given the original language, given the immediate literary context, and given the relationship to other passages on the subject. The great point that Chris did make, or at least one of the great points since he has plenty, is the emphasis on looking at the verse together with the surrounding verses (immediate literary context) and explain how these verses all fit together. For me, Mal 4 makes more sense once you do this. |
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