| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1179 Registered: 5-2007 |
I was listening to Pastor Joseph Prince this morning. He was talking about Justifacation in Christ. He described something I had not seen before, and mind you, I have not studied this. He said in the Ark was the Tablets, The Law. Above the Ark was the Mercy Seat. "above" On the Mercy Seat the blood was sprinkled. (The blood being a shadow of Christ's blood for us.) He said , When God looks down at the Ark , he does not see the Law, He see's The Blood. When He see's the Blood, The Judgement passes over. There is no condemnation In Christ. There is something precious here and I think I am not capturing the half of this truth. I have read assorted interpretations of what Justifacation, Sanctifaction and there are a couple other ones sometimes used in some faiths. The SDA view is so certain that the law itself cannot be set aside at all. But obviously , when you read Roman's and Galatians you may not come up with that view. They say that Justifaction is a release and a gift from past sins, and they even agree it is a constant process of forgiveness. But they are pretty forceful in the belief that the mirror is the law and that sin is defined by the law and that we twist our way to get out from under the law. But back again to Rom/Gal . The flow and context does not read that way. There is something far greater and well beyond the mirror of the law. Honestly , I see absolutely no way that we will ever be perfected by the law no matter how much we discipline ourselves. No matter how pure we are. The law will find a fault in us. It is the Blood the shields us from the condemnation the law brings. We know that God does not want us to sin. But what does He really want and expect of us in the practical sense? How are we to function in any semblence of peace if we are reflecting from letter of the law? It is not an easy answer as evidence by all the mainline faiths that invaribly use the law as a model, but they don't , sort of , but they do. SDA are not the only churches that create rules and legalism aimed at controlling others. Taht tendancy to build behaviour systems of rules is still law reflective. I get it, I understand why, sometimes we start from rules. But it does not bring peace if that is where we exist. There is no license. But there is a freedom. It is that freedom that I am tryinng to fathom and how to approach. Waht does that freedom provide? Jim (Message edited by jim02 on May 27, 2011) | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 934 Registered: 7-2008  |
Thanks for sharing Jim. Makes one think. Animal | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9221 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thanks for sharing this Jim. It sounds to me like God is giving you more understanding. Thank you awesome God. Diana L | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1921 Registered: 7-2007 |
Yes, I enjoyed reading that! I've heard it explained too, that the mercy seat covered death. Because everything in the ark represented death. The manna - because everyone who ate it, died in the wilderness. Aaron's rod that budded - because a bunch of people died at the rebellion of Korah. And the tables of stone with the law - because no one can keep it. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 577 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hi Jim Here are some notes on this subject that I had gathered during my phasing out of Adventism. (sorry I did not save attribution) Mercy Seat hilasterion (G2435), "the lid or cover of the ark of the covenant," signifies the Propitiatory, so called on account of the expiation made once a year on the great Day of Atonement, Heb_9:5. For the formation see Exo_25:17-21. The Heb. word is kapporeth, "the cover," a meaning connected with the covering or removal of sin (Psa_32:1) by means of expiatory sacrifice. This mercy seat, together with the ark, is spoken of as the footstool of God, 1Ch_28:2; cf. Psa_99:5; Psa_132:7. The Lord promised to be present upon it and to commune with Moses "from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim," Exo_25:22 (see CHERUBIM). In the Sept. the word epithema, which itself means "a cover," is added to hilasterion; epithema was simply a translation of kapporeth; accordingly, hilasterion, not having this meaning, and being essentially connected with propitiation, was added. Eventually hilasterion stood for both. In 1Ch_28:11 the Holy of Holies is called "the House of the Kapporeth" (see RV, marg.). Through His voluntary expiatory sacrifice in the shedding of His blood, under divine judgment upon sin, and through His resurrection, Christ has become the Mercy Seat for His people. See Rom_3:25, and see PROPITIATION, B, No. 1. Atonement katallage (G2643), translated "atonement" in the KJV of Rom 5:11, signifies, not "atonement," but "reconciliation," as in the RV. See also Rom 11:15; 2Co 5:18-19. So with the corresponding verb katallasso, see under RECONCILE. "Atonement" (the explanation of this English word as being "at-onement" is entirely fanciful) is frequently found in the OT. See, for instance, Leviticus, chapters 16 and 17. The corresponding NT words are hilasmos, "propitiation," 1Jo 2:2; 1Jo 4:10, and hilasterion, Rom 3:25; Heb 9:5, "mercy-seat," the covering of the ark of the covenant. These describe the means (in and through the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, in His death on the cross by the shedding of His blood in His vicarious sacrifice for sin) by which God shows mercy to sinners. See PROPITIATION. (ALT) Heb 2:17 Therefore, it was necessary [for] Him to become like His brothers [and sisters] in all [respects], so that He should become a merciful and faithful High Priest [in] the [things pertaining] to God, [in order] to make propitiation [or, an appeasing sacrifice] for the sins of the people. (ALT) Rom 3:25 whom God Himself put forward publicly [as] a mercy seat [or, propitiation] through faith in His blood, for a demonstration of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the sins having previously occurred in the tolerance of God, (ALT) 1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation relating to our sins, and not relating to ours only, but also relating to all the world. (ALT) 1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be a propitiation relating to our sins. Popitiation A. Verb. hilaskomai (G2433) was used amongst the Greeks with the significance "to make the gods propitious, to appease, propitiate," inasmuch as their good will was not conceived as their natural attitude, but something to be earned first. This use of the word is foreign to the Greek Bible, with respect to God whether in the Sept. or in the NT. It is never used of any act whereby man brings God into a favorable attitude or gracious disposition. It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins. Thus in Luk_18:13 it signifies "to be propitious" or "merciful to" (with the person as the object of the verb), and in Heb_2:17 "to expiate, to make propitiation for" (the object of the verb being sins); here the RV,"to make propitiation" is an important correction of the KJV "to make reconciliation." Through the "propitiatory" sacrifice of Christ, he who believes upon Him is by God's own act delivered from justly deserved wrath, and comes under the covenant of grace. Never is God said to be reconciled, a fact itself indicative that the enmity exists on man's part alone, and that it is man who needs to be reconciled to God, and not God to man. God is always the same and, since He is Himself immutable, His relative attitude does change towards those who change. He can act differently towards those who come to Him by faith, and solely on the ground of the "propitiatory" sacrifice of Christ, not because He has changed, but because He ever acts according to His unchanging righteousness. The expiatory work of the Cross is therefore the means whereby the barrier which sin interposes between God and man is broken down. By the giving up of His sinless life sacrificially, Christ annuls the power of sin to separate between God and the believer. In the OT the Hebrew verb kaphar is connected with kopher, "a covering" (see MERCY SEAT), and is used in connection with the burnt offering, e.g., Lev_1:4; Lev_14:20; Lev_16:24, the guilt offering, e.g., Lev_5:16, Lev_5:18, the sin offering, e.g., Lev_4:20, Lev_4:26, Lev_4:31, Lev_4:35, the sin offering and burnt offering together, e.g., Lev_5:10; Lev_9:7, the meal offering and peace offering, e.g., Eze_45:15, Eze_45:17, as well as in other respects. It is used of the ram offered at the consecration of the high priest, Exo_29:33, and of the blood which God gave upon the altar to make "propitiation" for the souls of the people, and that because "the life of the flesh is in the blood," Lev_17:11, and "it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life" (RV). Man has forfeited his life on account of sin and God has provided the one and only way whereby eternal life could be bestowed, namely, by the voluntary laying down of His life by His Son, under divine retribution. Of this the former sacrifices appointed by God were foreshadowings. B. Nouns. 1. hilasterion (G2435), akin to A, is regarded as the neuter of an adjective signifying "propitiatory." In the Sept. it is used adjectivally in connection with epithema, "a cover," in Exo_25:17 and Exo_37:6, of the lid of the ark (see MERCY SEAT), but it is used as a noun (without epithema), of locality, in Exo 25:18, Exo 25:19, Exo 25:20, Exo 25:21, Exo 25:22; Exo 31:7; Exo 35:12; Exo 37:7, Exo 37:8, Exo 37:9; Lev 16:2, Lev 16:13, Lev 16:14, Lev 16:15; Num 7:89, and this is its use in Heb 9:5. Elsewhere in the NT it occurs in Rom 3:25, where it is used of Christ Himself; the RV text and punctuation in this verse are important: "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by His blood." The phrase "by His blood" is to be taken in immediate connection with "propitiation." Christ, through His expiatory death, is the personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice under divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part. Note: "By metonymy, 'blood' is sometimes put for 'death,' inasmuch as, blood being essential to life, Lev_17:11, when the blood is shed life is given up, that is, death takes place. The fundamental principle on which God deals with sinners is expressed in the words 'apart from shedding of blood,' i.e., unless a death takes place, 'there is no remission' of sins, Heb_9:22. "But whereas the essential of the type lay in the fact that blood was shed, the essential of the antitype lies in this, that the blood shed was that of Christ. Hence, in connection with Jewish sacrifices, 'the blood' is mentioned without reference to the victim from which it flowed, but in connection with the great antitypical sacrifice of the NT the words 'the blood' never stand alone; the One Who shed the blood is invariably specified, for it is the Person that gives value to the work; the saving efficacy of the Death depends entirely upon the fact that He Who died was the Son of God."* * From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, p. 168. 2. hilasmos (G2434), akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1Jo_2:2 and 1Jo_4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His death, is the personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the KJV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1Jo_4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another. In the Sept., Lev 25:9; Num 5:8; 1Ch 28:20; Psa 130:4; Eze 44:27; Amo 8:14. Reconcile, Reconciliation A. Verbs. 1. katallasso (G2644) properly denotes "to change, exchange" (especially of money); hence, of persons, "to change from enmity to friendship, to reconcile." With regard to the relationship between God and man, the use of this and connected words shows that primarily "reconciliation" is what God accomplishes, exercising His grace towards sinful man on the ground of the death of Christ in propitiatory sacrifice under the judgment due to sin, 2Co_5:19, where both the verb and the noun are used (cf. No. 2, in Col_1:21). By reason of this men in their sinful condition and alienation from God are invited to be "reconciled" to Him; that is to say, to change their attitude, and accept the provision God has made, whereby their sins can be remitted and they themselves be justified in His sight in Christ. Rom_5:10 expresses this in another way: "For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son..."; that we were "enemies" not only expresses man's hostile attitude to God but signifies that until this change of attitude takes place men are under condemnation, exposed to God's wrath. The death of His Son is the means of the removal of this, and thus we "receive the reconciliation," Rom_5:11, RV. This stresses the attitude of God's favor toward us. The KJV rendering "atonement" is incorrect. Atonement is the offering itself of Christ under divine judgment upon sin. We do not receive atonement. What we do receive is the result, namely, "reconciliation." The removal of God's wrath does not contravene His immutability. He always acts according to His unchanging righteousness and loving kindness, and it is because He changes not that His relative attitude does change towards those who change. All His acts show that He is Light and Love. Anger, where there is no personal element, is a sign of moral health if, and if only, it is accompanied by grief. There can be truest love along with righteous indignation, Mar_3:5, but love and enmity cannot exist together. It is important to distinguish "wrath" and "hostility." The change in God's relative attitude toward those who receive the "reconciliation" only proves His real unchangeableness. Not once is God said to be "reconciled." The enmity is alone on our part. It was we who needed to be "reconciled" to God, not God to us, and it is propitiation, which His righteousness and mercy have provided, that makes the "reconciliation" possible to those who receive it. When the writers of the NT speak upon the subject of the wrath of God, "the hostility is represented not as on the part of God, but of man. And this is the reason why the apostle never uses diallasso [a word used only in Mat_5:24, in the NT] in this connection, but always katallasso, because the former word denotes mutual concession after mutual hostility [frequently exemplified in the Sept.], an idea absent from katallasso" (Lightfoot, Notes on the Epistles of Paul, p. 288). The subject finds its great unfolding in 2Co_5:18-20, which states that God "reconciled us (believers) to Himself through Christ," and that "the ministry of reconciliation" consists in this, "that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself." The insertion of a comma in the KJV after the word "Christ" is misleading; the doctrine stated here is not that God was in Christ (the unity of the Godhead is not here in view), but that what God has done in the matter of reconciliation He has done in Christ, and this is based upon the fact that "Him who knew no sin He made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." On this ground the command to men is "be ye reconciled to God." The verb is used elsewhere in 1Cor 7:11, of a woman returning to her husband. 2. apokatallsso (G604), "to reconcile completely" (apo, from, and No. 1), a stronger form of No. 1, "to change from one condition to another," so as to remove all enmity and leave no impediment to unity and peace, is used in Eph_2:16, of the "reconciliation" of believing Jew and Gentile "in one body unto God through the Cross"; in Col 1:21 not the union of Jew and Gentile is in view, but the change wrought in the individual believer from alienation and enmity, on account of evil works, to "reconciliation" with God; in Col 1:20 the word is used of the divine purpose to "reconcile" through Christ "all things unto Himself... whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens," the basis of the change being the peace effected "through the blood of His Cross." It is the divine purpose, on the ground of the work of Christ accomplished on the cross, to bring the whole universe, except rebellious angels and unbelieving man, into full accord with the mind of God, Eph_1:10. Things "under the earth," Phi_2:10, are subdued, not "reconciled." 3. diallasso (G1259), "to effect an alteration, to exchange," and hence, "to reconcile," in cases of mutual hostility yielding to mutual concession, and thus differing from No. 1 (under which see Lightfoot's remarks), is used in the passive voice in Mat_5:24, which illustrates the point. There is no such idea as "making it up" where God and man are concerned. B. Noun. katallage (G2643), akin to A, No. 1, primarily "an exchange," denotes "reconciliation," a change on the part of one party, induced by an action on the part of another; in the NT, the "reconciliation" of men to God by His grace and love in Christ. The word is used in Rom 5:11 and Rom 11:15. The occasioning cause of the world-wide proclamation of "reconciliation" through the gospel, was the casting away (partially and temporarily) of Israel. A new relationship Godward is offered to the Gentiles in the gospel. The word also occurs in 2Cor 5:18, 2Cor 5:19, where "the ministry of reconciliation" and "the word of reconciliation" are not the ministry of teaching the doctrine of expiation, but that of beseeching men to be "reconciled" to God on the ground of what God has wrought in Christ. See No. 1, above. Note: In the OT in some passages the KJV incorrectly has "reconciliation," the RV rightly changes the translation to "atonement," e.g., Lev 8:15; Eze 45:20, RV, "make atonement for" (KJV, "reconcile"). Rom 5:10 For if, being enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we will be saved by His life. 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 5:18 (NASB) Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. Rom 5:11 But not only [this], _but_ we also boast [or, rejoice] in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we now received the reconciliation. Col 1:21 And _you*_ at one time having been alienated and enemies in the mind by your* evil works, yet now He reconciled [you*] John | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1180 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thank You John. Great deal of detail here. (ALT) what does that stand for? Amplified? | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 578 Registered: 4-2007 |
Good question and old notes, in other words I don't know where that ALT comes from. The texts do appear to read the same as the Amplified | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 935 Registered: 7-2008 |
ALT..could it stand for Amplified Living Translation???...just a guess here...sigh | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2467 Registered: 5-2007  |
ALT: Analytical-Literal Translation Website: http://www.dtl.org/books/preview/alt.htm PS I know nothing about this translation other than what it says about it on this website. Fearless Phil | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12636 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jim, very good insights in your post above. Yes, God looks at Jesus' blood, and it covers our sin which the law reveals. You also might think of it this way: the law was not given to reveal God's will for man's sin, per se, but according to Romans, it was given to increase sin. It was a mirror to reveal the sin that was already in mankind. But prior to the law being given, the depth and pervasiveness of sin was not fully known (Romans 4-5). Death reigned since Adam, to be sure, but "sins" were not recognized. The law came as a messenger of death. Oh, the death was there all along, but people didn't realize they couldn't choose to please God or be good. The law came to show them how bad they were, and it came not just to show them how bad they were but to increase sin. Human nature is such that when a person is confronted with a rule, his natural rationalization and perversity causes him to flirt with skirting the rule. It leads to more sin. The law was never given as a revelation of God's character or God's provision for man's sin. It was given to make mankind aware that they WERE sinners. And Jesus' blood is the provision for our sin AND the way to be freed from sin. Our security is in the blood! Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 1047 Registered: 7-2004  |
John, Does that mean that we can summarize that Christ Himself is our Mercy Seat (and our High Priest, and our sacrificial blood, and really our everything-it all points to Christ) | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 296 Registered: 5-2009 |
I found this as I read Exodus recently & noted in my journal: Ex 25:17 (New Living Translation) “Then make the Ark’s cover—the place of atonement—from pure gold." Exodus 26:34 (New Living Translation) “Then put the Ark’s cover—the place of atonement—on top of the Ark of the Covenant inside the Most Holy Place. Exodus 30:6 (New Living Translation) Place the incense altar just outside the inner curtain that shields the Ark of the Covenant,[a] in front of the Ark’s cover—the place of atonement—that covers the tablets inscribed with the terms of the covenant.[b] I will meet with you there. I have been reading the bible with the question in mind: what does it teach & reveal about Jesus - especially Moses & the Prophets? This is a clear picture to me of the answer to Ric_b's question above. It IS ALL about Christ. J9 | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 579 Registered: 4-2007 |
"Does that mean that we can summarize that Christ Himself is our Mercy Seat (and our High Priest, and our sacrificial blood, and really our everything-it all points to Christ)" YES and AMEN!!! It's ALL about HIM. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 580 Registered: 4-2007 |
I have found that the ALT is the work of a single individual (http://www.dtl.org/alt/index.html), this alone would have caused me to be skeptical of it’s accuracy. I was not aware of this at the time or I would have replaced the verses with more reliable translations. However I don’t find any ‘violence’ done to the meaning of the texts: (ALT) Heb 2:17 Therefore, it was necessary [for] Him to become like His brothers [and sisters] in all [respects], so that He should become a merciful and faithful High Priest [in] the [things pertaining] to God, [in order] to make propitiation [or, an appeasing sacrifice] for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17 (NASB) Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17 (AMP) So it is evident that it was essential that He be made like His brethren in every respect, in order that He might become a merciful (sympathetic) and faithful High Priest in the things related to God, to make atonement and propitiation for the people's sins. (ALT) Rom 3:25 whom God Himself put forward publicly [as] a mercy seat [or, propitiation] through faith in His blood, for a demonstration of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the sins having previously occurred in the tolerance of God, Romans 3:25 (NASB) whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; Romans 3:25 (AMP) Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment. (ALT) 1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation relating to our sins, and not relating to ours only, but also relating to all the world. 1 John 2:2 (NASB) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 (AMP) And He [that same Jesus Himself] is the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins, and not for ours alone but also for [the sins of] the whole world. (ALT) 1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be a propitiation relating to our sins. 1 John 4:10 (NASB) In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:10 (AMP) In this is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins. (Message edited by JONVIL on May 29, 2011) | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1182 Registered: 5-2007 |
Colleen, I wish it were that I could find a church like yours here in GA. Jim02 | ||
| Scarred4life Registered user Username: Scarred4life Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2009 |
Hi Jim02, I have read your recent posts and I felt very much like you did when transitioning out of SDA. I found Pastor Joseph Prince's messages a great help, I do not agree with everything he preaches but I have never listened to anyone else who can make you feel so excited about God's GRACE. I pray that you will find the peace and comfort in God's Grace soon. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12641 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, God has certainly provided this church for us...but the real understanding and growth have come from asking God to teach me truth and reality from His word. Of course I've learned a great deal from the teachers at our church...but bottom line: I've had to decide that Scripture is all true, and I have to allow its Author to reveal to me how it fits together. He is faithful. Colleen |
