| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12573 Registered: 12-2003  |
I don't know whether or not y'all know how much the subjects and responses on this forum influence and help me as we plan Proclamation. But with that magazine in view, I'm going to throw out another question for you: How did the Great Controversy affect your view of reality? In other words, how did you understand God, Jesus, the devil, and yourself as a consequence of your Adventist worldview? I'm developing an article on this subject...I really desire your feedback. Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1893 Registered: 7-2007 |
When I was an SDA, I mostly thought about the last part where us SDAs would go hide in the mountains while the non-SDAs would hunt us. I thought it would be exciting to go hide like that and have God protect us and provide for our food! I tried not to think of scary things like The Time of Jacob's Trouble, though. I had no idea that there aren't really such things as Sunday-keepers - at least not among real Christians. I had no idea that Jesus is our Sabbath. I also had no idea that a person can have a real fellowship with God now, without waiting for the time of trouble to happen first. (I thought it was normal as an SDA to never sense God's Presence.) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9185 Registered: 3-2004  |
Most of my life I believed what we were taught as adventist about the end times, the time of trouble. My problem was I was not always obedient and could not make myself be obedient. After college I just quit trying. Didn't worry about it either. When I became a mother I did not teach my son what I had learned. I don't know why, I just never did. I thought when he got to be an adult I would have him read the Great Controversy. I never did. That was God telling me what to do, as I look back. In my 12 step program I met many lovely Christian people. I learned to apply the Serenity Prayer in my life, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to tell the difference. Unconsciously I saw there was much in adventism I could not change so God put them back in the recesses of my brain and I did not think of them. I never was afraid of Catholics as I have an uncle who is a Catholic priest and we all love him. I did not know that a lot of people did not keep Sunday like we did the sabbath. I used to wonder when I saw the people getting out of church on Sunday and going shopping, etc. Lastly I knew nothing about a relationship with Jesus personally. He was some one I prayed to, but thought I had to do something to win His favor. These are just off the top of my head at the moment. Diana L | ||
| Gregkleinig Registered user Username: Gregkleinig Post Number: 37 Registered: 12-2010 |
G'day. Because enforced Sunday keeping was going to be initiated in America? And spread to the rest of the world I liked N. Americans less and less as the years went by. Plus there isn't a mountain within 2000 miles of where I am plus we used to talk how you Yanks could find us with your satelite stuff. (it still took awhile to get Osamie though in spite of all that). Looking back it was all so irrational. I'm embarrased. But in Aussie many, many Adventists do have a wonderful close relationship with the very same Jesus we all love. Many Aussies, especially young ones, haven't got a clue about hardcore doctrine and could care less. My wiife has family in Holland and most Dutch Adventists do not accept Ellen White in any way so don't have the same highly developed sense of paanoia that Americans and Australians have about such issues. However, while we might chose to us different language isn't there an ongoing conflict between good and evil that has not received it's final curtain even though we know the outcome? | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 855 Registered: 5-2009 |
Well, I believe I always gave more power to the devil than to God. I really didn't trust God with my painful, personal things...could He be trusted? Wasn't He kind of weak, having to struggle with satan like that? When things in the world got bad I became very fearful and actually my husband and I moved up north to a little town (where he couldn't make a decent living) because of the T.O.T. that we knew was right around the corner. (Bad decision, but we thought we were doing the right thing.) At that time, we gave many of our things (that we should have kept) to the church for a fund-raiser, because we knew we wouldn't be needing them any longer (another very bad decision). Wow, Asurprise, I wouldn't say that thoughts re the end-times were exciting for me, more like traumatizing. I've told this before but will mention it because it needs to be told again. My sister was very traumatized as a little girl when a policeman came into the church lobby one Sabbath morning, because she thought he was coming to arrest us SDAs and take us to jail. She kept this secret for over 40 yrs. and only told me about it awhile back. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1898 Registered: 7-2007 |
I don't know too much about the millinium that starts when Jesus comes back - whether it will be on Earth, or where; but what if it's going to be on Earth with Jesus ruling from Jerusalem? Has it occurred to anyone, that if it's on Earth; then SDAs have been set-up to reject Jesus? Set-up by Ellen White and ultimately the devil behind her? | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1150 Registered: 5-2007 |
The book Great Controversy was essentially Windows XP to my mind. It became my frame work on how to recieve and interpret scripture. How did that happen? Because it offered details and explainations that I never had in the dogmatic world of Catholicism. It brought the mysterys of God to life and gave me a sense of navigable truth to guide me. I spelled out the hidden dangers we face, the battles we face with the devil. It even described the devil himself. It explained why we suffer. It told me how to think. But it also taught me legalism and works as a required aspect of salvation. That work of sanctifacation. If you are not growing, your dying. It cleared up confusion about Revelation and that pesky rapture belief. It gave me peace about hell being finite. That even if I did not measure up, then at least I woul dnot suffer for all eternity. That was actually the basis for being able to love God. He would not torture forever. I learned that people make mistakes, even new churches, just as the early SDA church did. That God reveals His truth over time, not all at once. As my brother once said, if you will buy this , then you will buy that, and pretty soon , you paint yourself into a corner. The GC was my operating system. The Bible was mainly additional information. I was still working within the same parameters of an authority system outside of the Bible. I was a model Catholic/SDA. This is explains why it is taking me so long to undo and relearn how to think about so many things. I do not think I have a distinct system these days. Bits and pieces mostly. Jim02 | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1899 Registered: 7-2007 |
Hi Jim; You don't need a system. You need a person - Jesus!  (Jim, I think you said that you have a son. You don't need a system to relate to your son. You don't love your son based on his performance. God is a better Father than any person could be. His love isn't based on performance. If it was, it wouldn't be love.) P.S. God does not send anyone to hell. God doesn't torture anyone. He did everything - I mean EVERYTHING possible to keep people out of hell! Hell was created for the devil and his angels, not for man. The only people who go there, end up there for the same reason the devil will; because of rejecting Christ. God did not just tell us He loved us. He proved He loved us, by sending His only Son to die in our place. That's genuine love. It cost Him everything. And He did it while we were His enemies! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1151 Registered: 5-2007 |
Hello Asurprise, I thought about some of my spontaneous comments and thought that it may have come across wrong. What I said was to express how the GC affected my life and world view. How it affected my perception of God. The idea of traditional hell has always been forboding, especially to a Catholic child. Now that I have left the SDA , I am still perplexed by the subject. I do not view God as a torturer per say. But if what everyone says about eternal hell is literal, then that presents a whole area of dissonance. I agree that what I need is Jesus in a personal saving relationship that gives peace and assurance. There are questions that defy answers, which means my understanding must trust in the revealed knowledge God has given us. You mention my son. Yes , I have three sons. The idea of unconditional love is something I relate to in my children and now in my grand daughter. God gave me the ones I love. He created all that is beautiful and that is good. He created the capacity to love. Christ's ministry was love. When I look at these things, I am able to trust and let go of the things like hell that I do not understand. I cannot answer how some of these things can be, or why. I can only trust that God has a solution that will reflect His Love. | ||
| Heretic Registered user Username: Heretic Post Number: 310 Registered: 2-2005 |
While I had never actually read TGC, I had heard enough of it cited in sermons or Sabbath School that I got that our lawkeeping would vindicate God and show the watching universe that He was fair and just. Little did I realize that this was demonstrated on the cross (Romans 3) not by the works of sinful man. What this did for me was paint a picture of a God that wasn't holy and who didn't require perfection since even then I realized that NO ONE was actually perfect. As a result, Jesus' crucifixion on a Roman cross didn't make much sense to me and there certainly wasn't warrant for a substitutionary atonement. This all adds up to a vastly different Christology than that of the Bible. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1152 Registered: 5-2007 |
The concepts of Law, Sin, Accountability, Punishment, Justice, Redemption all come together under the dictates of God. God made the laws to help identify sin to the minds of those without law or the Spirit of God. God designated that the punishment for sin was death. God created Judgement, Justice, Redemption. God did not create sin. God is Love. So I ponder this thing called sin and death. What is the big picture? God so loved the world, He gave His only Son, Christ to purchase our salvation. I do not understand why a child is born in sin. But the Bible says this is the case. Sometimes I wonder if we dwell in a reality that gives us no choice but to fail. We cannot save ourselves, though we are accountable. This is why I do not understand hell. While I agree that the universe must be free from evil, why would we perpetuate it with eternal hell? Christ died to pay the penalty for our sins. The penalty of sin is death. Eternal hell is not death. Therefor as I have seen written before. Eternal and Death may not mean what they say, or have more than one meaning. To say that death only means separation from God is to redefine death. To say that eternal means permanent results is another redefinition. This is why this subject cannot be settled with clarity. The GC gave me that luxury. Now that it is gone. Everything goes back into paradoxes. That leaves me with Trust alone. If I know God is Love, trust flows from there. Jim | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1900 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; you can know that God is just. Remember Jesus telling how the wicked will receive varying degrees of punishment according to how wicked they were? (Luke 12:47-48) So the punishment will be just. A wicked person won't receive one bit more punishment then they deserve. Yes, everyone is born with a sinful nature, but the reason that they won't have an excuse is because Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and all a person has to do is accept it. In case you're wondering about babies who die before they have a chance to grow old enough to chose, remember when king David committed adultery and murder and God caused the baby who was the result of that adultery to die? When the baby died, David said: "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, 'Who knows whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." 2nd Samuel 12:23 So Jim; that baby is in Heaven and David is with him! God is also love. You can trust His heart, Jim. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12582 Registered: 12-2003 |
Just have to share this...a local FAF friend of ours sent this to us this evening:
I thought that was rather well summed up, actually! Jim, actually, we've been taught the wrong definition of "death". We were taught it meant to cease to exist; the Greek word underlying death is a word that means "separate". When the body and the spirit separate, that results in physical death. Human spirits are born separated from the life of God. Even though our bodies breathe and live, our spirits are dead because they are in the domain of darkness, not alive in God. Eternal hell is not life. People whose souls are separated from God and are not united with Him by faith in Christ, remain dead. The world is even now filled with the walking dead...and hell will be those "walking dead" separated from God for eternity. They will not have access to the living...but neither physical nor spiritual death means "cease to exist". Colleen | ||
| Grace1958_f Registered user Username: Grace1958_f Post Number: 45 Registered: 3-2011 |
In Re to Post 12582: *Satan started all this but the focus is now on humanity. If we fail God fails. We have been shown how to follow the law but if Jesus can't deliver a people that keep God's laws then Jesus fails and God fails and Satan wins. To fulfill the prophecy that the sins are placed on Satan's head we cannot fail. That is a lot of pressure on us but we can do it. When Moses told the people that they needed to keep the laws they said with one voice that they would. The new Israel have been told the same thing but we will surely do it because we have a Sure word of prophecy which leads us into all truth and are enlightened by that guide which allows us to put it into our hearts.* Now I am really confused. Does that mean we (born again christians) are buurdened with perfectly keeping all commandments in order to vindicate God? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2458 Registered: 5-2007  |
Where in the Bible does it say God needs to be vindicated by anyone? Fearless Phil | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1414 Registered: 12-2007 |
Grace1958: "Now I am really confused. Does that mean we (born again christians) are buurdened with perfectly keeping all commandments in order to vindicate God?" NO NO NO !!! God does NOT need US to "vindicate" Him ! He is our creator, He is our God, how can created beings by their behavior or in ANY way vindicate their Creator ? He does not NEED to be "vindicated" of ANYTHING ! Not by us, not by angels, not by any other created thing. God is Soverign. Without Him there would be nothing, no one, zilch, zero. It is amazing to me that he chose to create us in the first place... we who have brought Him so much trouble and heartache. What LOVE to want US, to choose to create US to someday share in His holy and glorious world. Why He chose to create ME ? I can only stand in complete awe that He is willing to put up with my stumbling bumbling ways and to offer to ME His love and His promise of eternal life with Him. I have no idea why..... but I am so thankful for His immeasurable love. Can I "vindicate" God ??? What a ridiculous thought. Francie | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1768 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen: If that is what hell is for many people it won't be that bad. The rich people who have everything here don't miss God that much here and they won't miss him that much there.It sounds like hell will be just a continuation of the world as it is today without the believers. Those will be living in a perfect word in company of perfect love. Skeeter: I've been thinking the same thing lately. God loved me so much that he created me even though He knew that I was going to give Him trouble, but in the en it would be worthy because we will spend an eternity loving each other. But then the monkey wrench was thrown in. If He created me because of love, why did He create the lost? He also knew that those would be lost even before He created them. And according to many, in an eternal punishing state. In what way does that show love? Hec | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 931 Registered: 7-2008  |
Hec...I for one dont believe in an eternally burning hell. Never have. Never will. Animal | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12585 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hec, hell will be different; it is not the earth, for one thing. We're not told what/where it is, but the earth is for God's kingdom. Moreover, hell will not have the presence of the Holy Spirit wooing hearts, and it will not have the presence of born-again believers carrying the presence of Christ into a dark world. Even sinners, according to Paul, receive what we call "common grace"—the rain falls on the just and the unjust. Hell does not seem to be a place where life as we know it on earth will be continuing. It is, after all, not on earth. Furthermore, it was prepared for the devil and his angels, not for humans. Only those humans who reject the God who paid His own demands for sin will be sentenced to hell. And Hec, God didn't "create the lost". He created perfect humans: Adam and Eve. Humanity was lost because of man's decision. Humanity is saved because God paid His own price demanded by His own law for sin. Humans who are finally lost, according to Romans 1, are lost because they have suppressed the knowledge of God by their own wickedness. God knows all things, including the future. But we cannot, according to the Bible, "blame" Him for "creating the lost". He elects His own, but we cannot translate that into his creating the lost. He is not willing that any should perish, and He did WAY more than mere "fairness" would ask in sending one of the Trinity to take the full weight of sin and its punishment. We just have to hold loosely the apparently difficult-to-reconcile facts in the Bible. God elects, but we decide what to do with the Lord Jesus. We can neither blame Him nor explain away His sovereignty. He is more loving than we can imagine, and we cannot see all of reality. We have to accept what He does not clearly explain. The things we need to know are explained. But the secret things belong to God (Deut 29:29). Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1926 Registered: 6-2006  |
For mainstreamers, the concept of Hell and eternal punishment (as well as Heaven) just isn't an issue. For two thousand years the church has believed in eternal life and eternal punishment. Then the SDA's and JW's come along and "correct" the mainstream view. Just like that. What the heck? For those of you who are not familiar - when you're raised as a mainstream Christian, these two doctrines are just part of the package. Our assurance of Salvation tells us that eternal life starts right now. It also tells us that Hell is a real, Biblically eternal place in which Jesus has rescued us. When we finally meet our Savior in person, we will understand the whys and the hows, and he promises no tears! When people ask "how could a loving God create eternal punishment?" Let me ask, how could God do anything? How could a loving God kill every first born in Egypt? How could a loving God cause the great flood? How could a loving God allow Job to be stricken the way he was? There were also early Christians in the NT who were struck down for lying about money. Even more than that, how could a loving God allow his only son to be crucified among theives? Equally, when soul-sleepers ask about Heaven, "How could a loving God let my loved ones see me suffer?" Again, where can you find that in scripture? All it says is that we will be present with the Lord, and the saints ask "How long, Lord?" I don't see anything in the Bible that explains that we'll all be watching the earth from up there. When one asks "How can a loving God...?", my question is, "Loving" according to who? To humans? How can one gauge God's love? What makes man's love equal to God's? God is God. He's certainly not Santa Claus or a big, sweet Papa Smurf. He's our sovreign creator! With all due respect, I can never say that I fully understand what a former goes through or the conflict they deal with in their hearts. I guess I want to know why immediate, eternal life in Heaven or eternal punishment in Hell can't be even a possibility... Sorry ~ I just had to get that off my chest. Leigh Anne |
