| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12570 Registered: 12-2003  |
I received an email today that, in part contained this excerpt:
How would you answer? Colleen | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 278 Registered: 8-2006 |
Wow... I actually know some members of that church personally. These people are what you would classify as "liberal Adventist" I will say they are more grace-based, almost to the point of : "I can't believe no one has been fired or disfellowshipped". The reality is they still are SDA and there is a reason they still have a church and they have the SDA "stamp of approval". To some degree they are still "toeing the line" with 27 Fundamental Beliefs- including EGW. The real issue is that they are still members of a larger church body that fully supports and teaches/preaches "false doctrine"- whether they openly promote these or not they are still associated with "Big Brother". The outside may be more grace-based and appear Evangelical, but at the core they are still submitting to "false doctrine and theology". You could ask the same question back- Adventists do not believe we are "part of the fold". Their theology does not allow for that to be possible, we are the ones to usher in Sunday Laws and SDA persecution. There is no third option, I don't believe they "openly, deliberately serve satan", but they teach a different Christ, Trinity, atonement, and plan of salvation. For this reason I believe they are deceived by satan, teaching a gospel apart from "Christ alone", all the while believing they are performing "God's work". Bottom line they are teaching the "SDA gospel" which is contrary to the "True gospel", therefor I would have to conclude they are unknowingly serving satan. OK- I said it. Hopefully I don't get judged too harshly for putting my "2 cents" out there. (Message edited by Cortney on May 11, 2011) | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 264 Registered: 2-2008 |
The Holy spirit is God"s perfect way of getting us to know him. God already knows us.Faith does not always understand God because Gods ways are different from our ways. But God always understands us. Faith does understand that God cares for us, and that all situations are redeemed only through him. This author of this email is trying to usurp the power of the Holy Spirit, in essence, blasphemy towards the Holy Spirit. One of the promises of God is that people will not go around, one man to another saying know the Lord, for all shall know the Lord. Doctrine works in opposition to this promise by requiring its recipients to know the doctrine in order to know the Lord. Doctrine is not the truth , but doctrine is taught as the truth. Jesus is the truth, amen, Chris | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 279 Registered: 8-2006 |
Matthew 7: 15-23: "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord", will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me that day, "Lord, Lord", did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, "I never knew you. Away from me, you evil doers"! | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 145 Registered: 11-2008 |
I do not doubt that there probably are lives in that congregation who were touched and changed by God... However, one might wonder, did that happen because of the SDA church, or because they came to believe in the gospel of grace of Jesus Christ, even if imperfectly and despite whatever things the system taught them? With respect to the second paragraph in his message, is the person who wrote you, as an individual, serving God in Christ or serving the SDA church? In what, or who, is his identity based? I might be reading too much between the lines, but he might be putting something between himself and Jesus, and that is the SDA church. I get the feeling that he relates "working for God" = "serving in the SDA church"... As if he were not to serve in the SDA church, he wouldn't be serving Jesus. What is your opinion? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2456 Registered: 5-2007  |
Here is what I would say: Since I cannot see into your heart and truly know if you are sealed into the kingdom of God I can only address the official foundational doctrines of the denomination you claim to uphold. Since you testify that lives have been “changed” in your congregation I would have to wonder how this message of grace you claim is being taught would be received in mainline Adventist churches. If we are really all teaching the same gospel of Jesus Christ, why do you claim that I have a decision to make? Fearless Phil | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9183 Registered: 3-2004  |
That was what I was thinking Phil, you just said it better than I would have. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12571 Registered: 12-2003 |
Excellent responses, all of you! Phil, your question is so well put. The foundation is what gives away the identity of the organization. I'm not going to tell you here who the author is, but I may put it in Proclamation...he asked that I reveal his name. I certainly appreciate all your input...I will use your insights in an answer to him. I welcome any more feedback... Colleen | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 562 Registered: 4-2007 |
More Adventist smorgasbord: Pick, choose, reinterpret, ignore, discard Denominations are defined by their doctrines His 'no doctrine is perfect', eliminates from discussion Adventist doctrines that are in opposition to salvation in Jesus only, a device to avoid dealing with them. He can't get away with pretending they don't exist so, when one of the many anti-gospel Adventist doctrines is presented, he can conveniently keep repeating 'well, no doctrine is perfect'. How else can he excuse his remaining in a church whose doctrines deny the salvation he supposedly has found. | ||
| Nowhitehats Registered user Username: Nowhitehats Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2010 |
This person seems to be making the claim that since they are “for Jesus” all others need to embrace the Adventist mission and teachings as being from God. There is great hypocrisy in this claim as Adventism does not embrace or accept other “for Jesus” evangelicals. In fact, there has always been an emphasis on distinction and separation from, and dare we say “being against” evangelicals due to Adventist eschatology. So right from the start, hypocrisy. One could also ask them to qualify the following statement: "changed lives" - how are lives changed? "grace" - what is grace? "gospel of Jesus Christ is preached, lived and practiced" - Exactly what gospel is being preached? Exactly how is this gospel being lived or practiced? "Doctrine does not save us, Jesus does" How does Jesus save us? How has Jesus saved you? Would this person say that all of these things happen at their church in a consistant manner with their doctrines or do they happen inspite of their doctines? By making the statement: “There will never be perfect doctrine.”, this person makes it sound like it’s inspite of their doctrines. I would then have to ask “Then why do you stay as a part of that broken system?” Unless what they really mean is “In all other religions, there will never be perfect doctrine.” As I've learned so many time from members of this forum, Adventism has it's own language and really needs to be unpacked to see the distinctions between it and real Christianity. I also might ask this question: Does this person really believe ALL doctrine is imperfect ("There will never be perfect doctrine")? All of it? REALLY? If so, why have it at all. I think the whole perfect/imperfect argument is of little value and is probably a “straw man” argument in the end. Instead, does it not make more sense to ask whether or not doctrine is True or False based on what the Spirit of God teaches us in the Bible? Defining what “imperfect” means to this individual would be helpful. My guess is that they mean “incomplete” or “not perfectly articulated”. I would argue that this might be the case with Adventist, as well as any other religious doctrine. But just because something is not well articulated does it mean we can’t accept or reject it as true or false. The question is not are these doctrines perfect or imperfect but are these doctrines True or False. Quote: “It seems to me that you have a decision to made about the Adventist church which you have never clearly set out.” Colleen - ultimately, all this person may be looking for is a clear declaration about what decision you’ve made about the Adventist church (Adventism), something I think you’ve always been very clear and transparent about. May God's Spirit guide you, NoWhiteHats | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 775 Registered: 5-2002  |
I can testify of changed lives at a local Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses. Changed life - even outwardly positive change - is NOT how we identify the work of the Holy Spirit. Jesus' followers never emphasized their changed lives, rather, they emphasized Jesus. The Holy Spirit always testifies of Jesus. There are several Adventist churches using the name "New Hope", so I could not identify which one to investigate further. I'd be willing to bet that the website of this church has some dead giveaway "another gospel" attributes. Any preacher can claim that "grace and the glorious Gospel" is being preached but I'm quite certain that, at the end of the day, this congregation is hearing watered-down Adventism clothed (cloaked?) in Gospel language. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1894 Registered: 7-2007 |
Colleen; if he had written the email to me, I might respond with something like this: Dear Sir; When I was an Adventist, I cheerfully shared the Adventist doctrines with anyone who was curious. I even went door to door with EGW books, saying; "I'm giving away free Christian books. Would you like some?" I even believed that I was saved by grace. However, I couldn't quite put all my weight down on Jesus' finished work. Didn't EGW say that no one should say they are saved? I felt that I had to be diligent to maintain that salvation. So, yes, just as Ellen White said not to; I couldn't honestly say I was saved. It was a puzzle to me why Ephesians 2:8-9; 2nd Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 all say that believers have been saved though. I didn't know why 1st John 5:13 says that a believer can know he/she HAS eternal life. I thought perhaps I didn't quite understand or something. I was very happy for the people who did seem to have it together. (But I figured that the people who did have it together were the ones who kept the Sabbath, didn't eat any pepper or much cheese and eagerly looked forward to the time of trouble. Seriously, I thought it would be an exciting thing to go through and when I was with a group of Adventists, I would often bring the subject up!) As far as accepting Jesus, as long as I kept asking forgiveness for my sins and kept trying, I figured I would be okay. There were some verses that I just didn't understand, but I figured that I just didn't have a perfect Adventist knowledge yet. All those verses in Romans that call salvation a free gift, those pesky verses in Colossians 2:16-17 that show that all the various types of Sabbaths were shadows of Christ, those verses in Philippians 1:22-25 where the apostle Paul says that it would be better for the believers if he remained in the flesh, rather than depart and be with Christ; and others. Anyway, when all is said and done, it really boils down to a religion based on Ellen White, despite how one justifies it. And it's a religion where part of salvation is up to the believer, and as an Adventist, I was never quite certain if I'd done my part. (Besides which, I was taught that my part was ongoing.) Sincerely, Dianne (Message edited by Asurprise on May 12, 2011) | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1195 Registered: 7-2005  |
The two passages the author posts talk about "with and against" and "for and against." I have never felt as if I fully grasped why Jesus used these two different statements, instead of stating them exactly the same both times. I can't quite get a clear picture in my mind of what these statements mean, but I don't think they are interchangeable. I think they are different, because the context is different in the two passages. Let me think this through and I may have more to say later. In the meantime, I do want to point out that Jesus did not say that either group was working for the devil. Let's not put words in Jesus' mouth. I'm riding a bus right now, so I can't fully develop my thoughts. I'll try to come back to this thread later. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1196 Registered: 7-2005 |
OK. I've had some time to digest these two passages and here's what I've observed. =-=-=-=-= Passage #1: Luke 9:49-50 “And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.” Context: Spiritual warfare performed by the disciples. Someone outside the “circle” of the intimate followers of Jesus is using Jesus’ name to cast out demons. These words are spoken to His inner circle of disciples. Lesson: Inclusiveness in the body of Christ, as long as the ultimate goal is the deliverance of people from spiritual bondage. =-=-=-=-= Passage #2: Matt 12:30 “He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.” Context: Spiritual warfare performed by Jesus, witnessed and criticized by the Pharisees, who accuse him of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub. These words are spoken to the Pharisees, who were clearly against Jesus. Lesson: Jesus’ ministry, figuratively speaking, draws a line in the sand and excludes those who are not actively working toward the same ends as Jesus – deliverance of people from spiritual bondage. Those who are against Jesus are actually worse than if they were simply apathetic, lazy, or ‘on the fence.’ They actually UNDO the work Jesus is doing by ascribing His works to the devil. This is the very thing of which Jesus warns in the next verse – blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. =-=-=-=-= The author of the email doesn’t specify whether the ministry in which he is engaged is spiritual warfare (or the casting out of demons). If that is what his ministry involves, then perhaps one of these two passages would apply to him and our attitude towards him. If not, then I question whether it is appropriate to use these passages to force a declaration of judgment from you or anyone. As far as I remember from my 16 years in Adventism, it is extremely rare for an Adventist group to be involved in a deliverance ministry. Therefore, I can only conclude that his use of these passages is inappropriate. We can continue to plainly and unapologetically state our disagreements with Adventist’s doctrines and teachings, without being forced into judging whether a particular person or group is operating under the power of Satan. We can continue holding fast the confession of our faith in Jesus Christ and continue focusing on *His* power and *His* deliverance ministry. We can magnify Christ, and point others to Him, while speaking the truth in love about teachings that we believe diminish Him. If I could, in good conscience, stand beside my Adventist husband and cast demons out of people and lead them in the sinner’s prayer, then I would be the first to extend the hand of Christian fellowship to Adventists. However, after 16 years of trying to blend in and be a good Adventist helpmeet, I finally had to separate myself from the institution of Adventism. The Spirit just would not let me have peace about giving my support to a system that robs people of the one thing they most need and that is the assurance of their salvation in Christ. If this man’s church teaches people to have that assurance by putting all their weight down on Jesus to accomplish their salvation, then they are indeed vastly different than the Adventist ministries I witnessed. I hope that is so. However, I am not at all interested in investing the time to “go and see” whether that is the case. I’m just too “burned” after my 16 years of looking for any shred of hope that would indicate Adventism might be growing up into that level of spiritual awakening and maturity. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12575 Registered: 12-2003 |
I'm really enjoying your responses! I agree with all of you, and you are making some great points. No, HonestWitness, this letter's writer is not involved in "deliverance ministry". He's a well-known Adventist pastor. Always I come back to this: you can't build the true gospel on top of a faulty foundation and have a building that is habitable. Please keep commenting; I haven't responded to him yet! Colleen | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 854 Registered: 5-2009 |
"There will never be perfect doctrine." First thought: But there will always be a "perfect" gospel. Second thought: Is it then OK to join the Mormon church? Third thought: Has he asked these same questions of EGW, the "authoritative source" of truth for his denomination? Fourth question: If having correct doctrine doesn't really matter, then why doesn't he go join another grace-based Christian church? (Could it be because he won't let go of that doctrine of.... Sabbath?) I haven't thought it through enough, but that "no perfect church" thing REALLY bugs me...it's the argument my mom would use whenever I saw things that were very wrong going on in the church, ie the Davenport scandal, etc. Also, we "have to keep our eyes on Jesus" instead of the men that were swindling little old ladies out of their tithe money, so that made their behavior OK. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3671 Registered: 10-2004  |
It is for "another Jesus" and against the true Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:3-4). It is not of God but is of the devil (2 Corinthians 11:13-14, 1 Timothy 4:1-5, 1 John 4:1-6). It's promulgators are working for the devil: "13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds." (2 Corinthians 11:13-14 NASB.) As for New Hope and J. David Newman in particular, they do indeed promote a false gospel and a false jesus/godhead. Here is a post I wrote last July:
Here are the relevant sections/quotes from my website:
Also, here is a post of mine from a few years back, which touches more on their soteriology (doctrine of salvation): http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/7427/5165.html#POST68171 Jeremy | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 563 Registered: 4-2007 |
Sorry, this does not contribute to Colleen's question, just a rant. Ted Wilson's vision of the SDAC is historically accurate as the grim visage of Ellen. New Hope's vision is of a much smaller image of Ellen...with lipstick, surrounded by unicorns and rainbows. He is correct in stating that no (Adventist) doctrine is perfect, so until he man's up and identifies those 'less than perfect' doctrines, maybe that Ellen is unreliable and the IJ, Sabbath keeping, their version of sin, the Trinity...are unscriptural, his 'New Hope' will remain the Ted Wilson's 'No Hope' SDAC with a cheap veneer of Christian sounding terminology added. Disgusted by the dishonesty John | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12579 Registered: 12-2003 |
Totally agree, John. And Jeremy, absolutely. People may argue that the "coeternal God" means...whatever, but grammar is used in official statements for a reason. Grammar actually reveals the core, bottom-line reality of a statement. People may gloss over the "wording" and say "why don't you put the best interpretation on that?" Well, because the statement does not SAY what you want it to say!! For all the reasons you stated, Jeremy, that "coeternal" statement means what is says. It is not describing "one God". Is just isn't. I will be incorporating much of what y'all have observed when I answer this person. Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 609 Registered: 7-2005 |
Colleen, First, I will forget all the good answers given above. Answering the question with a statement, even if this statement is 100% accurate would only jeopardize your mission. This question is a trap question, this should give you second thoughts about the way you respond to it. Newman knows the answer: since you see as on God's side, he, preaching the adventist gospel which you consider another gospel, a false gospel, is on the wrong side. He only wants from you an explicit answer in order to discredit your work. You should answer, of course, but not by stepping into his trap. Two contrary affirmations in his letter: 1. you can be either for God or against him, and you can know it for sure 2. all knowledge about God is imperfect Well, if all our knowledge about God is imperfect, this leaves the possibility that our present knowledge about God is so imperfect that it places us on the right side, on devil's side. In this case, we can't pronounce ourselves with confidence even on what we believe about ourselves, why does he thinks we are competent to assess his position? If I'll have the opportunity to converse him face to face I'll ask the following questions in return: Do you think that gospel is doctrine? If your knowledge about gospel is imperfect, are you perfectly sure that you're imperfect gospel places you on God's side? How do you perfectly know that your imperfect gospel is the right one? This was a little digression. Back to the subject. Logically there are 3 answers: 1. He's on God's side. This will qualify your mission as an attack on Christian brothers, dividing Christ's body. 2. He's on devil's side. This will discredit your mission from start: you're intolerant because since all doctrines are imperfect, your criticism is overstated. You claim to know objectively the truth about God, while in reality, all knowledge is subjective. Of course, he knows objectively that he works for God, but this is another question. 3. We don't know. This agnostic position disqualifies you: you're not qualified to have an informed view, you said you don't know. As I said at point no. 2, he knows for sure for whom he's working. And he knows also that his church, his gospel, is under attack, and can't be reconciled with the evangelical gospel (cheap grace, justification only, fill in the blanks...). This means that he knows that you're not working for God, implicitly for the other side. But instead of assuming the responsibility for his position, he wants you to take it in order to discredit you as intolerant. His question is an affirmation in disguise: he's masking his own church and his own position toward those who reject adventism. How I'll respond? Because he's trying to skip his responsibility about his own position, I'll change the focus on it. I'll not let him put on me the responsibility for his actions. I said "his actions" because long before I even thought of rejecting adventism the church through Ellen White and also through the IJ, sabbath as seal of God, test, had already pronounced on this questions: people who know the adventist message, reject it, are lost, forever lost. They are working for Satan. Remember Canright, Ballenger and others. The SDA Church already has a view about the detractors of adventism: the worst enemies of the faithful (adventists). Also, as I said on another thread in the members area: formers don't have credibility in the eyes of adventists. Especially because formers are critics, they are considered as having almost zero credibility. Instead of answering questions myself, I would lead adventists to an answer coming from a trusted source: himself or/and another adventist. In this case, I'll point to a favorite argument of adventist apologists, namely that the majority of the former's criticism of adventism is not new, it is a refinement of Canright's criticism. While this is a little overstated, I think that as far as regarding the central message of adventism is concerned, Canright had the same position contemporary former adventists had. Here is how I'll build my answer: "I'm not the first former adventist that sees a strong contradiction between the adventist gospel message and the biblical gospel. Long before I became a former adventists, the church and Ellen White already gave an answer to your question. Adventist apologists love to see former adventists walking in the steps of Canright. Assuming that in general lines this is true, what do you think about Canright's work? Was he on God's or on devil's side?" Eventually, I'll bring Ellen White's quotations about Canright doing the work of Satan, being deceived, boarding a sinking ship. I'll also bring Ballenger's case, with Ellen White telling others that Ballenger was influenced by demons. If Ellen White is not a trusted source for adventism, who is? In this way, if he wants an answer, he can answer by himself. "Why do you need my answer when you already know your position?" Gabriel | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12580 Registered: 12-2003 |
Gabriel, very good insight. Thank you. Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1411 Registered: 12-2007 |
I am afraid I have to agree with Gabriel. I believe he is trying to set a trap for you. No matter how you answer with a straight answer...no matter how much scripture you may provide... it will be twisted to try and make those who have left Adventism seem as though they (we) have left the "truth" and are serving Satan. As Gabriel said He already knows his position. BUT.... in this I personally see some GOOD news... we "formers" must have them worried.... which means we have them thinking and just perhaps some will study God's word thinking to prove their position and instead actually find God's truth. Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing ? Maybe there will be a new wave of SDA pastors and others who leave like Mark, Dale and others did several years ago.  I will be praying for that outcome. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1197 Registered: 7-2005 |
Gabriel, I very much appreciate your post #609. Thank you so much for clarifying the trap that has been set for Colleen and for providing the best way to avoid having it snap shut on her. "I'm not the first former adventist that sees a strong contradiction between the adventist gospel message and the biblical gospel. Long before I became a former adventists, the church and Ellen White already gave an answer to your question. Adventist apologists love to see former adventists walking in the steps of Canright. Assuming that in general lines this is true, what do you think about Canright's work? Was he on God's or on devil's side?" Brilliant! | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1412 Registered: 12-2007 |
If I were speaking to this SDA pastor I think I would have to tell him the same thing I would tell any other SDA who may or may not be sincere in wanting an answer.... As to your question "am I serving God or Satan?" My personal opinion does not matter. Open God's word with an open mind and an open heart prayerfully seeking only His truth. That is where you will find your answer. If you will put away ALL SDA materials and study only God's word.... if you will read every word and not just the "proof texts" read Galatians, Hebrews, Romans, 1+2nd Corinthians all the while praying for God to remove the "veil" and show you HIS truth EVEN IF it is not what you personally WANT it to be.. God will reveal to you HIS truth. Gods word. THAT is where you will find your answer. Francie (Message edited by skeeter on May 14, 2011) | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1198 Registered: 7-2005 |
Your answer is good, too, Francie. Well said. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 564 Registered: 4-2007 |
Worried? I don't think so. I think that they are just arrogant, born from their sense of entitlement of being God's chosen people, convinced that they possess insight into God's truth that no one else is capable of ever understanding. Having read extensively on a blog (Vox Popoli) the Atheists' responses to Christian discussions, I am struck by the similarity of their methods to that of Adventists, bearing in mind that Adventists who are willing to post are invariably VERY Adventist, regardless of 'flavor'. These are not folks who question their beliefs and are not there to learn. Entrapment A favorite tactic by both Atheists and Adventist is to ask questions (that they already know how it's going to be answered) as a plea to 'understanding' but actually as a means of controlling the 'discussion'...with an agenda. Adventist: Are you a sinner? (knowing what their answer is going to be) Non-Adventist: Yes (with scriptural support) Adventist: You admitted it, you love to sin-how disgusting, and you call yourself a Christian. Adventist: Why do you keep Sunday for the Sabbath? (Double whammy, knowing what their answer is going to be) Non-Adventist: I don't keep Sunday (THAT accusation never goes away and creates a diversion) Here's why I don't keep the Sabbath (scripture and conclusions) Adventist: You don't love Jesus, and you call yourself a Christian Adventist: "So I would like to know from your perspective who I am working for." Non-Adventist: I believe your theology is flawed. (scripture and summary) Adventist: Well thanks for the 'opinion' but you have not answered my question: "So I would like to know from your perspective who I am working for." Non-Adventist: Beliefs that are not in agreement with scripture are not of God. Adventist: So your opinion then is that those 'beliefs' are of the Devil and anyone who does not conform to your opinions are working for the Devil. Congratulations, you've just managed to accuse everyone outside you little 'correct theology' circle as being demonic, and you call yourself a Christian. OR Non-Adventist: You're a false teacher doing the Devil's work by denying the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice thereby denying any hope for a dying world OR Non-Adventist: You're working for God, I repent and will return to the Remnant, God's chosen people, the SDAC. All praise to Ellen (Message edited by JONVIL on May 14, 2011) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 9189 Registered: 3-2004 |
Gabriel and Francie, your answers are good also. Diana L | ||
| Seekinglight Registered user Username: Seekinglight Post Number: 523 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen, thank you for sharing your current challenge with us. Scott and I will be praying for you & your family. Please keep us posted. Something came to mind that I thought I'd share. It's a chapter in Wayne Jacobsen's book called "He Loves Me". Jacobsen is the gentleman who wrote "The Shack". Now, I feel like I have to make a disclaimer that I do not agree with all the in's and out's of his theology. However, many of his writings have blessed me, nonetheless. You can find the entire book here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lifestream.org%2Fdownload.php%3Ff%3D5&rct=j&q=he+loves+me+wayne+jacobsen+glorify+thy+name&ei=OC7PTZG...IA4SusAPj5YCiCw&usg=AFQjCNGmlBuSvfOknLmAe1Kt-YxTnovbSg&sig2=x3DftBqgFWXbP_NXuQz-1Q But, below is the chapter that has helped me in times of suffering. It changed my paradigm of how I relate to God and how I pray through the difficult times. The Prayer God Always Answers “Since God offers to manage our affairs for us, let us once and for all hand them over to His infinite wisdom, in order to occupy ourselves only with Himself and what belongs to Him.” J. P. de Caussade (c. 1700s) His time of teaching about his Father’s kingdom had drawn to an end. There would be no more opportunity to hold a leper in his hands or sit in Mary’s home in Bethany and talk of his Father’s wonders, at least not in this body, not in the way he had grown accustomed. He had returned to Jerusalem for his final visit. Days away from yielding himself to those who sought to kill him, his heart was deeply troubled. He stood on the threshold of the greatest act of love and trust our world would ever behold, but he knew in doing so he would be consumed. What should he do? Would he trust his Father’s love and continue the journey, or would he cut it short in a moment of weakness and beckon angels to set him free? Perhaps the most powerful lesson he taught his disciples about prayer began by polling how they thought he should pray: “What shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour?’” Perhaps there were nods around the circle as they all acknowledged how good that sounded to them. That’s how we’re used to praying. In moments of trial and pain, it is natural even for the unbeliever to cry out for help. Save me, God! If you get me out of this I will serve you forever. His disciples understood that prayer well enough, but Jesus wanted them to learn a better way. Even when it was his life at stake, Jesus was tuned to a better frequency. “No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.” What he wanted personally wasn’t in the picture. He was focused elsewhere—on the purpose that transcended his personal happiness. Then he prayed the prayer he wanted them to hear, “Father, glorify your name” (John 12:27). In this brief exchange we learn everything we will need to know about prayer and what it means to follow God in this life. For every situation you’ll ever encounter will offer you two options in prayer: “Father, save me” or “Father, glorify your name!” One will lead you to frustration and disillusionment; the other to the greatest wonders in God’s heart. WHATEVER YOU ASK? Jesus teaching about prayer seemed to be incredibly simple: Ask for whatever they wish and be assured that the Father will give it to you. It only gets complicated when our experience with prayer falls short of this ideal. Why would he tantalize us with such outlandish promises only to leave us disappointed in so many of the things we ask? It’s not so difficult to understand why he would ignore our more selfish requests. Even his disciples had to learn that the power of prayer was not for their selfish agendas. Instead of calling down fire from heaven as James and John had asked for; Jesus taught them that such ideas came from the wrong place. And when they asked him to grant them seats on his right and left in heaven; he told them they weren’t his to give and that in his Father’s house there is no place for anyone to set themselves over anyone else. Jesus never intended prayer to be the way we manipulate God to do what we think is best. If you look carefully at Jesus’ simple statements about prayer you will see that they are set in the midst of us participating in what God is doing. While we are invited to make any request of God we like, the prayers that move God’s hand are those that grow out of our trust in who he is and what he is doing. I wonder what my life would be like now if God had given me half the things for which I’ve asked him. I know I would have been giddy with delight in the short-term, but I would have had no idea of the hurt my selfish requests would have caused. And how would I have come to know him as my loving Father if I treated him like my genie in a bottle? It’s far more difficult to understand why our prayers for other people in pain and misery go unanswered. Was Peter responding in any way less than love when he forbid Jesus to go to Jerusalem to face his executioners? I think not. Yet his entreaty was met with the harshest rebuke, as Satan’s words to keep Jesus from his mission. Peter didn’t understand God’s higher purpose in the cross Jesus would suffer. For God to have answered his prayer he would have aborted the very act that would save Peter from himself. “You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men” (Matt. 16:23) Because Peter didn’t understand that his concern simply gave voice to Satan’s attempt to discourage Jesus in his obedience to his Father. It was a “save me” prayer, rising more out of fear than God’s love and like most “save me” prayers, they usually resist God’s purpose rather than serve it. “FATHER, GLORIFY YOUR NAME” We were made for this! When God fashioned the first humans he designed them body, mind and soul so they could participate in his glory and share in his pleasure. If you’ve ever known that glory, either just sitting in his presence communing with him or having just seen him use you to reveal himself to someone else, you know what I’m talking about. At such moments it seems time itself stands still. Waves of joy sweep across us and it is so incredible, that you feel if you were made just for that one moment your life would have had a wealth of meaning. “I was made for this.” And you were. Jesus knew that about himself. Faced with two choices, “Father, save me!” or “Father, glorify your name,” he chose the latter. He knew the only real glory existed in fulfilling the Father’s purpose in his life regardless of the circumstances. As much as he might have dreaded the agony of the cross, he knew he had come into the world for that moment. “Father glorify your name.” This is the prayer that the Father always answers. “Father, may the purpose for which you have created me and placed me where you have in the world be fulfilled completely.” It is the prayer that disarms our self-interest and asserts our trust that the Father who made us and who loves us so deeply knows us better than we know ourselves. We make this choice not one time for our entire life; but in the immediacy of each situation we face. When I didn’t get the job I wanted, the raise I deserved, or the medical report I hoped for: “Father, save me!” or “Father, glorify your name.” We face it when we’re the subject of malicious gossip or the object of someone’s selfish act. “Father, save me!” or “Father, glorify your name.” We confront it when we face people in need, the opportunity to speak the truth where it will cost us, or when we can take up the cause of the powerless. “Father, save me!” or “Father, glorify your name.” We engage it when the dark storm surrounds us, and when trials overwhelm us. “Father, save me!” or “Father, glorify your name.” A DAILY CHOICE It’s not the words we use that matter here, but the cry of our heart. Choose to save yourself and you will find yourself resisting God when you don’t even mean to. You’ll end up praying against the very things God is using to transform you. You’ll miss his attempts to help because they won’t look like the thing you want. I’ve got to be honest. I have spent most of my life praying “save me” prayers. I didn’t always know that’s what I was doing, but simply thinking that God would want the best for me defined in my terms. But God has taught me over and over again in this journey that he knows best about everything. The way I would solve my problems and help other people would do more damage to us all than he would allow. When he denied me the thing that I wanted it was because he had a better way not only to deal with my circumstance but change me in the process. In almost every situation it seems that what God is doing is the opposite of what I would do. When he wanted to teach me to trust him more, I prayed he would fix things so I wouldn’t have to. When he wanted to lead me into the fullest participation of what he made me to be, I prayed he would just make me happy. When he wanted to change my character so I would represent his heart to others, I wanted him to leave me the way I was and not allow me to be caught in situations where the “old Wayne” would surface. I’m so glad he won, more often in spite of my prayers than because of them. I want him to continue, I really do. I want him to use everything in my life to shape me to be more like him so that he can fulfill in me the purpose for which he made me. FINAL WORDS I could go on with other implications of what it means to live in God’s love, but I think the picture is clear enough now and you’ll be able to recognize the pathway and follow it wherever your Father wants to take you. This is a life far better lived than it is read about. Besides, this life is far more fun to discover than it is to let someone tell you about it. As you find yourself falling into the security of the Father’s love you will find that your own thoughts, ideas and actions will surprise you. You’ll catch yourself thinking, “I’m not like this.” And yet you are. You always have been, it’s just that it was distorted and twisted by a broken relationship with the Father loved you so much. Find some others who are sharing the same journey and you’ll have the joy of discovering what they are learning as well. The journey cannot be found in the pages of this book or any other. It lies in the Father’s heart and your own. I can’t make this happen for you, so I won’t even try. You can’t make it happen for you, so please don’t you try either. What you can do is trust God enough to let him do it for you. Don’t worry about having any illusions there. He seems to love doing this more than anything else he does and he’s been doing it with people through the whole course of history. If you came into a room where a two-year-old child was playing and wanted to have a relationship with that child, who would have to make that happen? Would it be the child? Of course not. To forge a relationship with that toddler, you must be the one to do it. He’ll have to respond of course; but you would take the initiative. You would find a way to meet him at his level and you would engage him with things that interest him as you draw him into a relationship. The same is true with God. He is higher above you than you are above a two-year-old. He will take the initiative at your invitation. Simply ask him to begin to reveal to you how much he loves you and he will ably take it from there. “Glorify your name.” In all of us, now until the end of the age. And for eternity beyond. Amen. In him we were also chosen… according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. —EPHESIANS 1:11-12 |
