| Author |
Message |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2815
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2011 - 11:04 am: |     |
CARM.org - Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry. It has a number of discussion forums including one for discussion about Seventh Day Adventist related topics. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12553
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2011 - 5:23 pm: | |
Jackob, very good points. And Rick, yes! So little is actually new...who knew?!
God raises up teachers and preachers for the church, and one of the amazing things I'm discovering is that in the body of Christ, members don't just gradually fade away and become obsolete before finally passing from the scene to be forgotten.
For example, a few years ago, Gary gave the Sunday morning sermon to a much-loved professor of his, Howard Hendricks, who was in his eighties. He had suffered bouts with cancer and had an artificial nose and a section of his forehead, but that man spoke powerfully and clearly and taught us from God's word. I remember not only being really edified from the man's teaching but impacted by the fact that when God calls people to His service, He continues to use them for His glory until He calls them home, and when they leave, they are remembered.
Another example of this phenomenon has been the three-part Louis Talbot article we just finished rerunning in Proclamation. Fifty-four years ago, Dr Talbot wrote an insightful and penetrating work on Adventism, and God knew that in 2010 and 2011 He would resurrect that all-but-forgotten work and bring it to the church's attention once again. It was all in His plan.
When men (and women) of God write from their experience with God and with His word, that work is not lost or obsolete because it is for God's glory. He continues to teach His church through the meditations of His witnesses spanning centuries.
And ultimately, it is His timeless word that teaches us. God allows us to help each another understand His word when we are submitted to Him...and He confirms the things He wants us to know in His timeless word. It's amazing, really...
We are part of a body that is more that 2,000 years old. When members die, they do not cease to exist; they become part of the great cloud of witnesses who are with the Lord Jesus. Christ's body is united by the Holy Spirit, and even though we have no contact on earth with those who have died, still all are known and unseparated from Christ and His love.
In Christ we are all one body, and the Holy Spirit teaches us the same truth today that He taught the Jews in the synagogue on the day of Pentecost when Peter preached with power he had never had before that day.
It is very humbling to realize that truth actually is eternal and absolute...but the nuances of it are greater than we can fully know. God gives us glimpses of how His truth shapes our life through the insights of the rest of the body. His word teaches us all, and as we submit to it, we can read the body of work that is the legacy of the church without fear or confusion even when our own conclusions may vary slightly.
It's amazing and exciting to realize more and more how connected we all are by the Holy Spirit and how shaped we are by His word. There is one faith, one baptism, one Savior, one Spirit, and one Father of us all!
Colleen |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 971
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2011 - 6:26 pm: | |
quote:It's amazing and exciting to realize more and more how connected we all are by the Holy Spirit and how shaped we are by His word. There is one faith, one baptism, one Savior, one Spirit, and one Father of us all!
Amen! And that is one of the great truths that SDAism completely misses. |
Paulcross
Registered user
Username: Paulcross
Post Number: 194
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2011 - 8:25 am: | |
Thanks,
Jackob for post #597
Also Colleen for post #12553.
It is certainly my experience that God has both challenged me and drawn me through close fellowship and dissusion with a widely divergent cluster of Christians. There is a concept which I often need to review; "Frustration preceeds insight", this is a close and important cousin to the role of "cognative dissonance". I repeatedly find that when my understanding is most limited and I acknowledge the fact God uses that window to admit light.
Therefore: (IMO)
Dialogue with frustration may lead to understanding.
But
Dialogue with venom (not refering to disagreement) leads to intransigeance.
Thanks folks. 
Paul Cross |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1757
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2011 - 12:18 pm: | |
How true.
Hec |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 599
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2011 - 10:45 pm: | |
@Colleen, Ric, thanks for adding your insights.
There is a great irony in reading literature coming from different sectors of the Christian Church. Common sense tells people that reading from many writers who interpreted the Bible makes people dependent on them, and in order to counteract this they should read only, or almost exclusively, the Bible.
The irony is that in this way the individual is with himself, he's looking at the Bible from one-sided perspective. Instead, when an individual becomes familiarized with different traditions of interpretation, he will go in the opposite direction: he will become more and more independent on men's views about the Bible.
First, as was already emphasized, there is a common faith deposit, the faith once delivered to the saints. The amazing thing is that, despite differences in views, there is a common content that is visible. It's like looking to a mountain from different angles, from south, north, west, east, different altitudes, etc. While looking at a mountain from one single spot gives the person a two-dimensional picture of the mountain, looking from different angles leads him to a more complete, complex, and also three-dimensional view. That's what Bible becomes when different commentators from different interpretative traditions are read.
Reading widely will give people more courage in their faith, they will understand that there are giants on whose shoulders they stay, also their faith will no longer be as much as dependent on particular interpretations of the Bible.
I noticed that there is a direct proportion between trusting and depending on individual leaders and ignorance about the way in which other theologians interpret the Bible. For example, the followers of Harold Camping are highly dependent on him for believing that the end of the world will come this year. Harold repeatedly refused to interact with those who tried to engage him in conversation, refused to be corrected by his own church, he established his own and told his followers that the rest are no longer valid churches. Isolation, mistrust, lack of communication, lack of conversations between different views, all these are a powerful recipe for disaster: people are limited to their own private interpretation with negative consequences.
Gabriel |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 977
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2011 - 1:51 pm: | |
Gabriel,
I think it is important for formers to become well grounded in the Word before they start diving in to the writings of too many authors. When your Scriptural foundation is still weak it is easy to be swayed by every wind that blows. And there are some errors just as dangerous as SDAism lingering in the weeds. Once you start to develop a good foundation in the Word, there are a number of great authors that will strengthen and challenge your Biblical understanding. But it is important to always come back to the focus on what does His Word really say on the subject. Scripture alone doesn't mean easing nothing but Scripture, but it does mean that nothing else we read has any authority in doctrine or practice. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12558
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2011 - 3:31 pm: | |
Rick, I agree...and Gabriel, you're right about the common theme that emerges among Bible scholars through the ages. Once a person is really grounded in the Word, reading other authors can be challenging and strengthening.
I've just seen quit a lot of people leaving Adventism who begin to pore over Christian authors in neglect of deep and inductive study of Scripture, and they often end up theologically "twisted" because they don't have a personal understanding of the connections in Scripture to build a foundation under what they read. It can be quite devastating!
Colleen |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 551
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2011 - 5:20 pm: | |
Kind of odd, that's what got them into trouble in the first place-led astray reading someone else's opinion of what God 'really' meant.
You'd think that after leaving Adventism they would be more skeptical, I know I certainly was |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 978
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2011 - 9:29 pm: | |
SDA are never really taught exegetical Bible study skills. As a result, they are left in a position to be more easily mis-led or confused even after leaving SDAism. That is why the ministry to transitioning SDAs is so important and why getting connected with a local group doing solid Bible study is critical. There are bad study habits to unlearn, and solid ones that need to be learned. Then you start having the tools needed to evaluate the claims that authors and speakers are making. |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 601
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 6:28 am: | |
Thanks for drawing attention toward the necessity for a good knowledge of the Bible. My approach assumed that former adventists already had made a progress in understanding their Bible better, otherwise they will still be adventists, don't you think? They already have an improved understanding of the Bible. And is precisely this improved understanding of the Bible that needs to be tested against other different ways of interpretation.
My plea was not for reading human authors against reading the Bible, not even reading many Christian books but rather reading widely against reading narrowly, only from authors who match the current view of the individual.
quote:I've just seen quit a lot of people leaving Adventism who begin to pore over Christian authors in neglect of deep and inductive study of Scripture, and they often end up theologically "twisted" because they don't have a personal understanding of the connections in Scripture to build a foundation under what they read. It can be quite devastating!
This is exactly why I encourage people to read interpretations coming from different interpretative traditions. The people mentioned above read some Christian authors and stopped at that point. Even if they look at the Bible and try to understand what it says, they look at it only through the human lens provided by those few authors, without reading or interacting with other Christians who will present a different picture and challenge their views.
In fact, what I'm standing for is not even for reading Christian literature: it's about conversation. Being conversant with different viewpoints regarding the Bible is what I think is the most important thing. Ric mentioned the necessity to form exegetical Bible study skills done in connection with a local group doing solid Bile study. Amen!
The question is: how former adventist will know if a local group does or doesn't solid Bible study? On the market there are churches from one side of the spectrum to the other, each having different theologies that clash in some measure with one another.
In a mathematical equation arriving at certain results depends on the way you're doing the calculation. The same data doing the same operation can lead to different results when the method or the way in which the calculation is done. In theology, different principles of interpretation leads to different results, and in order to evaluate critically the results it's necessary to bring to light the interpretation principles used by those groups. Before joining a group doing solid Bible study individuals have to determine which group is indeed solid in the approach. Not an easy task, do you think that it can be done without serious research and knowledge of the particular theologies of those groups?
I don't think so. Choosing one group instead of another implies already a familiarity and knowledge of the Bible AND of the theological positions and principles of interpretation used by that particular group. This means research into the particular theological positions of those groups, before joining them. Joining one group or another means commitment and the group's approach will shape the biblical understanding of the individual.
Now what happens after somebody joins a particular church? They already are going to know better the views they share with the group and the group's approach toward the Bible. At this moment the need to be in contact, to read, or carry conversations with people outside that group is important for being in touch with different perspectives, different approaches to the Bible. It will help improve people's objective approach toward the Bible and keep them away, as far humanly speaking is possible, from giving in to the sectarian spirit that is so prominent in adventism. Adventism draw from the sectarian spirit of many denominations, don't forget that the adventist pioneers didn't convert from raw paganism: they were members in churches of those theology already shaped their approach to the Bible. They just developed and combined with deadly results what they unfortunately learned in the churches, the sectarian elements that plagued their churches. The spirit and motivation of adventism doesn't come from nowhere, a great part was inherited from the religious life of America's Christianity of their days.
Gabriel |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 980
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 10:09 am: | |
Actually I meet many people who have left SDAism who still don't have good Bible study skills. This is one of the key things that we try to teach in our Bible study fellowship group for formers here in the Dayton, OH area (shameless plug).
Some people leave simply because they sense something missing in SDAism that they see present in other churches.
Others may have read a great deal about what was wrong with Ellen White and SDA doctrines. They were convinced by what they read, but never learned how to study it for themselves. I have seen this even among people convinced by Dale's books. They studied and believed what he presented, but they still hadn't learned solid skills for handling Scripture.
You point out a great struggle, if you are unpracticed in how to study Scripture contextually and exegetically, it is harder to evaluate the teachers you hear and churches you visit. My advice is to start by looking for those teaching Scripture in a verse by verse fashion, rather than jumping all over the place for verse here and another verse there. It helps to understand the NT epistles as letters. Read an epistle like you would read a letter to your church. What was said in the previous paragraph has bearing on what is said the next.
I would also insist on studying with those who believe that Scripture is completely true, accurate, and complete. Any other starting point just leads to confusion.
Finally, the message of the Word isn't a secret to decode. The plain, straightforward reading of the passage should not be set aside. It may be supplemented by plain readings of other passages, but beware when you come across a complex explanation that concludes just the opposite of what the passage appears to be saying in plain language. |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 603
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 12:45 pm: | |
@Ric
You made three statements about interpreting the Bible: is harmonious and consistent (you can read whole letters in one piece), it's innerant, it's clear.
Sure these are good places where people should get their training in interpreting Scripture. This still does not eliminate their need to be aware of what goes outside the borders of this conservative approach to the Bible.
Here is how the things are going: it's a prophecy that it's self-fulfilling. Ellen White predicted that those who will lose trust in testimonies, they will lose trust in the Bible. And when former adventists raise objections regarding the inspiration of Ellen White by proving that her writings are not inerrant, do you know what the adventist apologists will reply?
I think you already know the answer: they will bring liberal arguments against the inerrancy of the Bible. And if formers are not familiar with these arguments by meeting them through the work of Christian apologists, they will be easy prey.
The problem is isolation: adventism keeps his crowd isolated from ideas coming from outside their particular world.
Why? I think that we, former adventists, know the answer: because they don't have the truth. They can't afford their views to be tested in the marked of ideas.
The problem is that the current promoters of liberalism, like Bart Ehrman uses the conspiratorial approach- "the fundamentalists doesn't tell you the truth, they tell you only what it fits their dogmas" A former adventist who experimented already this phenomenon in the SDA church is more inclined to think that the same thing adventists did to him, preventing him to interact with ideas and arguments against his views, the fundamentalists (read historic Christianity) do also.
At this point he will come to distrust profoundly anything coming from "fundamentalist" Christianity in a similar way he came to distrust anything coming from adventist leaders. He will look at Ric's insistence "Go where Bible is considered innerant" as being no different than Ted Wilson's "read the books written by adventist theologians, by the Biblical Research Institute, you don't need to read books outside the camp, all you need is found in our books."
I think that this could be prevented if people will be encouraged to test their views even against the higher critics. Yes, look for good Christian ministries, but also be informed about what the critics of Christianity say.
Gabriel |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 981
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 1:08 pm: | |
Gabriel, I am in full agreement with you about the advantages of being well- and diversely read on the subjects of theology. But many people coming freshly put of SDAism need to start with the basics. Using the analogy of mathematics, they have been taught that 2+2=pi. And they often think that they have a decent understanding of math because they can quote all of these incorrect formulas. They need to go back and learn how to properly do addition and subtraction before they can even begin understanding probability. And there is much to learn (and un-learn) before they are ready for Factor Analysis. I was talking about what to look for in an elementary school, not a graduate program. I'm sure that plenty of recently transitioning SDAs don't want to hear how little they actually know about solid Bible study (or hermeneutics for those who like $25 words). But I've watched far too many people leave SDAism only to fall into the trap of latching on to a teacher or author who is undermining or twisting their newly developing faith. For instance, there is a great deal of emotionally and intellectually satisfying teaching from Emergent Church authors. (And a few valid points from time to time). But the sweet tasting doctrines that they promote can easily distract intelligent and well educated people. And these ideas are sprinkled with just enough Bible quotations that they can seem legitimate. And this doesn't begin to touch on the plainly anti-Christian critics. |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 769
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 1:13 pm: | |
This is a crucial discussion for those transitioning out of Adventism. Discovering what is NOT true does not provide one with the tools to discover what IS true. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12559
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 1:47 pm: | |
I agree with both of you, Gabriel and Rick. Gabriel, you are perhaps more inclined to search deeply on your own than many people are. What Rick is saying, however, is exactly the problem we face as well. Over the years it has been an increasing source of concern to me that people who become convinced Adventism is wrong and even accept the gospel of Jesus' finished work often stay "stuck".
I've had people right at that point of departure argue with me that they can't go to a normal Christian church that teaches "the rapture" or "eternal hell" or any number of things. They have no idea that these things are not core issues of salvation (as they are in Adventism), and they believe they have to have full doctrinal agreement in order to worship. There's no sense that they can have true fellowship if the Word is carefully taught and Jesus is central...no matter what their eschatology.
Many people write asking where they can find a congregation of other "formers". I always tell them I don't know of any, and if I did, I would not recommend it. Even people who have left who go on to have other ministry outside Adventism (especially pastors who leave) often do not take the time to submit themselves to the teaching of Christian teachers for a time before launching into their own ministry, and they inevitably retain certain "warps" from their Adventist worldview, at least for some time.
It is absolutely crucial for a "former" to process his Adventism by means of inductive Bible study. We really have no idea, at first, how deep and warping our Adventist "great controversy worldview" is. It takes people at least two to five years to process into a normal biblical worldview--and it only goes that quickly if one is involved in the deep study of Scripture with someone who knows the Bible without the "warp". Debriefing goes even more quickly if one can also (or at the same time!) study with someone who knows Adventism and can draw out the contrasts between an Adventist "skew" and what the Bible actually says. That's why groups like Rick's and Chris Lee's in Lincoln, NE, and Carolyn Macomber's in St. Joeseph, MI, and ours in Redlands, CA, are so important.
And if none of those groups is near you, this forum serves that purpose. Those who do not learn to study Scripture inductively stay "skewed", and if they never submit to sound Bible teaching, they really never leave the shallows of the edge of the "Christian pool". They continue to be resistant and confused by many Christian teachings...and it's all because they don't know the Scriptures!
Colleen |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1386
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 4:31 pm: | |
Colleen, I agree with you fully ! I know personally I still have a very long way to go in learning and unlearning of so many things. Even after nearly 4 years I am still amazed at what new things I am learning. The roots of error get deeply embedded and it is hard to get out ALL the roots of those WEEDS. I have often thought it would be nice if there were some other "Formers" in my area... people going through similar transition process . Sometimes I get frustrated trying process mentally sermons that bring me more questions than answers and asking those questions of a Pastor or other Christian people sometimes is hard because I am sure they dont understand why I would even have a question about certain things that they just take for granted, things they know to be true that I cannot as easily accept as true because of the fear of being deceived again.
I thank God daily for this forum where I can come and read and talk with those here who truly understand those questions and why they are being asked.
Francie |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1758
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 6:04 pm: | |
Do you have a good and simple book that will teach a person how to study the Bible inductively?
Hec |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 604
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 12:35 am: | |
@Colleen
quote:I agree with both of you, Gabriel and Rick. Gabriel, you are perhaps more inclined to search deeply on your own than many people are.
I think you're observation is right. I wish more formers will be inclined to study deeply the Scripture and theology.
@Ric
quote: But I've watched far too many people leave SDAism only to fall into the trap of latching on to a teacher or author who is undermining or twisting their newly developing faith.
And precisely this is my point: don't let only one teacher or author shape your understanding of the Bible.
You insist on teaching good ways of studying the Bible, I cannot agree more. My view is only that this is a necessary but not sufficient condition for making progress in the spiritual life. .
You mention one author or one teacher. Even if I learn good tools of biblical interpretation, if I'm not testing my own interpretations against different views, I'm limiting myself to one single author: ME. I'm limiting myself to one interpretation of the Bible: MINE. Or, if I'm studying with the group, I'm limiting myself only to the way in which that particular group interprets the Bible.
Here is something curious: my plea was to read authors coming from different backgrounds, and the objections are raised giving as examples people who were influenced by only one author or two. Was not this precisely my point from the beginning? Don't limit yourself to one or two authors, to the particular theology of one group, know other people's views, know more than the opinions of one author. Know Christian history, know the development of Christian history, know the heresies that plagued the Christian Church: don't reinvent the wheel.
Adventist took great pride in the fact that they dismissed the interpretative tradition of centuries: they lumped all the Christian teachings into the apostasy pit. They started to reinvent the wheel, and they went directly in the traps in which previous heretics had fallen: arianism and later tritheism. They prided themselves to be able to get a better understanding of the Bible than the rest of the Christian church, isolated themselves in a corner and repeated the history they refused to learn. They limited themselves to their own group interpretation of the Bible refusing to interact and learn from different perspectives.
While learning good tools for biblical interpretation is important and necessary, this will limit the individual to his own personal private interpretation similar to the way in which others, without learning good principles of studying the Bible, limit themselves to a bunch of authors or teachers instead of enlarging their theological and interpretative horizon.
When Christ ascended He had not let his followers to interpret the apostle's writings in isolation one from another. He let the Church, he gave to the church the gifts of teaching, instructing precisely for the purpose of preventing the situation in which heretics
quote:And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Ephesians 4:11-14
Here is the way in which unity of faith is attained: through the different teaching gifts in the church. The way in which believers can build strong faith, and build themselves against deceitful teachers is by benefiting from the teachers God placed into the Christian church at large. While knowing how to study the Bible well is essential, the way of attaining unity and maturity in faith is in interaction with the body of Christ, the universal Church with its teachers, preachers, writers. That's why I think my view is less formed by my own personal inclination toward the study, but by what I believe is the way in which the Bible speaks about reaching maturity and unity of faith.
Gabriel |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 982
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 7:32 am: | |
Gabriel, I really don't think that we are disagreeing on this matter. We need to develop some basic skills before we can develop intermediate skills before we can develop more advanced skills. I think it is healthy to pursue developing these more advanced skills. But I don't think you can bypass the earlier steps. I'm not suggesting that a person needs finely tuned hermeneutic skills to benefit from reading a variety of authors. And I found that reading different authors, comparing what they said, and examining how they used, or misused, Scripture helped to improve my hermeneutical skills.
As a really good internediat level step, I found that Zondervan's put together a really good series of competitive doctrinal views on different subjects. They had multiple authors present their viewpoints and then present their counterpoints to each other's views. This was a simple and effective way of getting a quick overview of different points of view from the people who held those views (which is also important because I see too much misrepresentation happen). I read through a number of these during the time period where we were searching for w new church home. It helped me greatly in understanding both the commonalities and the differences in doctrinal understandings. And it prompted me to dig deeper into some of the viewpoints through more detailed writings. Even if you don't go any further than these, they are an outstanding way to better understand what other Christian viewpoints really teach on a subject and why they come to those conclusions. It clears up a number of misrepresentations. |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 607
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 11:59 am: | |
@Ric
quote:Gabriel, I really don't think that we are disagreeing on this matter.
Indeed, I don't think either. I'm afraid what happens with the former adventist movement in my country, Romania, colored my concerns.
This is somehow off-topic, I want to share for the benefit of others what happened in Romania with the former adventist movement. It will be fun if it will not be sad. With one exception, all my former friends who left adventism became Arians. I left the SDA church together with others who became persuaded that the Investigative Judgment is false and that we are justified exclusively by faith alone, atonement finished, etc. So far, so good.
A few years later another exodus from adventism begun. While the first exodus was composed, with one or two exceptions, of laypeople, the new exodus was composed by adventists pastors. It was not intended to be a movement away from adventism, but a return to the roots, to the Arian views of the pioneers and of Ellen White.
But based on the factor that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", the two movements merged with each movement sharing with the other what it has peculiar. They all became Arians and this was the death of former adventist movement here in Romania.
When I tried to reason with them, I made the discovery that these people didn't even knew what they were against. When I asked them to define what they oppose, they described Trinity in two ways: either as tritheism, or as modalism. The problem was that they were not at all inclined to amend their views, even if the internet was full of literature for free.
These were pastors, who nevertheless refused to read anything about Trinity written by the church fathers, anything by Athanasius, Augustine, or the Cappadocians. They all swallowed hook, line and sinker the Dan Brown's thesis found in the best-seller "DaVinci Code": Trinity was made up at Nicaea, a political vote was taken, it was superimposed on the Bible.
Now, you have to understand that these people just went out from a bad experience with organized religion: these people were told lies about Ellen White, they came to see how the adventist leaders modified Ellen's views, made her sound less Arian. They just discovered that a real conspiracy was at work, and now they suspected a larger conspiracy done by organized religion. Once this idea entered into their heads, they become suspicious of anything that came from organized bodies.
In this stage, they simply were shut up to anything I would say about Bible, and in spite of presenting what I thought was a solid defense of biblical Trinity, they still thought of myself as being deceived in the conspiracy. The only way to open their thinking of even considering my approach to the Bible was to persuade them that there was no conspiracy, that the church fathers came to their convictions by doing faithful bible studies, that their arguments were open for all to read, etc. etc.
Unfortunately it was too late. Not knowing the history of the church, being already predisposed toward distrust of organized religion, they simply refused to test their views against contrary evidence. They rest assured that their views of the Bible were right, and looked at every attempt to correct them by pointing to the Bible as part of a historic conspiracy: "You believe in Trinity because you were told to, you're looking at those texts in the way they told you to look." No interaction, nothing.
I wonder how the situation would be if those formers would have known a minimum amount of the history of the church, and be acquainted with the works of the church fathers on the subject of Trinity. Of course, you can't pretend fresh formers to read the Church Fathers of become familiar with the history of the development of the dogma.
But I think that you're right: they lacked some good biblical skills in order to evaluate by themselves what the arian pastors told them. This basic knowledge would prevent them being taken by apparent strength of argumentation.
Funny, one of the pastors who became Arian found a modalist pastor from USA and asked him to be baptised only "in the name of Jesus". Great choice, can I say more?
Gabriel |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 847
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 8:04 pm: | |
Very sad, Gabriel. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12560
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 11:57 pm: | |
Wow. Very sad, indeed. We're glad you can come here and share your experience with us, Gabriel. It must feel very lonely much of the time...
Colleen |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 2819
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 5:42 am: | |
Gabriel,
I've seen the same thing happen to people who left SDAism here in the states. It is very sad. Leaving Adventism is not the same as finding Christ. Finding out out EGW is a false messenger is not the same as discovering the true Gospel. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1759
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 7:49 pm: | |
Do you have a good and simple book that will teach a person how to study the Bible inductively?
Hec |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1923
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 10:09 pm: | |
Hec, this book is from a reputable Christian publisher and has a lot of positive reviews ~
http://www.amazon.com/New-Inductive-Study-Bible-International/dp/0736900225/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
This is a good, handbook as well ~ http://www.amazon.com/What-Bible-All-About-Handbook/dp/0830730850/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304916781&sr=8-1#_
Also, if you have a Bible Study Fellowship (BSF) in your area, I highly recommend it. It's a weekly inductive study of the Bible, and is men only/women only. We're just wrapping up Isaiah, and the book of Acts starts up in Sept.
Leigh Anne |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3668
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 11:06 pm: | |
Also, here is a good webpage on Biblical hermeneutics: http://www.forananswer.org/Top_General/Hermeneutics.htm
Jeremy |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 988
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 8:53 am: | |
Excellent link Jeremy. I would encourage everyone to read it, and take the time to digest each section. There is a lot of information packed into that article. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1761
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 10:36 pm: | |
Thanks all
Hec |
|
