| Author |
Message |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3635
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 3:34 pm: |     |
The following quote is from a document on the website of the official Biblical Research Institute of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, entitled "The Trinity in Scripture," by Dr. Gerhard Pfandl, Associate Director of the Institute:
quote:"'For in Him dwells all the fullness (pleroma) of the Godhead bodily (somatikos).' The word pleroma has the basic meaning of 'fullness, fulfillment.' In the Old Testament it refers repeatedly to the earth/sea and 'all its fullness' (Ps 24:1; cf. 50:12; 89:11; 96:11; 98:7), which is quoted in 1 Corinthians 10:26, 28. In secular Greek pleroma referred to the full complement of a ship's crew or to the amount necessary to complete a financial transaction. In Colossians 1:19 and 2:9 Paul uses the word to describe the sum total of every function of divinity.25 This fullness dwelt in Christ 'bodily,' i.e., even during his incarnation Christ retained all the essential attributes of divinity, though he did not use them for his own advantage. [...] (http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/trinscript.pdf)
In the above article, the SDAs are redefining what "all the fullness of the Godhead" means in Colossians 2:9. Instead of it meaning that Jesus is fully (all of) the one true God (since they deny this Biblical truth), they argue that it just refers to "the sum total of every function of divinity" and that it simply means that Jesus possessed all of the "essential attributes of divinity" (which argument is itself disingenuous since they deny that Jesus retained His incommunicable divine attributes!). But even if they did believe that He retained His divine attributes, their argument that this is all Colossians 2:9 refers to is absolutely false. The Greek word translated "Godhead" (the archaic English word used in the KJV) or (more accurately in modern English) "Deity," theotes, cannot just mean divine attributes. As the Jamieson, Fausset & Brown commentary explains: "of the Godhead--The Greek (theotes) means the ESSENCE and NATURE of the Godhead, not merely the divine perfections and attributes of Divinity (Greek, 'theiotes'). He, as man, was not merely God-like, but in the fullest sense, God." (Emphasis in original. LINK.) Also, as Christian scholar Dr. James R. White shows in his article "Theotetos: Meaning at Colossians 2:9": "One cannot translate theotes as a simple quality or attribute - it refers instead to the actual essence of deity, not simply to its attributes." (LINK.)
In other words, Colossians 2:9 is actually saying that Jesus is "the whole fullness of deity" (ESV)--that He is fully (all of), and not part of, GOD. But in order to try to salvage their polytheistic heresy of multiple divine beings (gods), which is taught elsewhere in the above SDA document, Adventism has to ignore the Greek and come up with their own private, cultic twisting of what the verse means. This is no better than the Jehovah's Witnesses' so-called Greek "scholarship" with regard to Trinitarian issues (such as John 1:1)! And this is just one example of such blatant Scripture-twisting by Adventism, in order to defend their anti-Trinitarian beliefs. Much more can be found at my website: http://www.cultorchristian.com/
Jeremy |
Mjcmcook
Registered user
Username: Mjcmcook
Post Number: 13
Registered: 2-2011
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2011 - 7:02 pm: | |
~HI~Jeremy~
Your post regarding the sda teachings of the
Trinity came at the perfect time for me to share
with a friend in my Calvary Chapel ladies
Bible study group~
Thank-you !
~*~mj~*~ |
Jonvil
Registered user
Username: Jonvil
Post Number: 527
Registered: 4-2007
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 5:54 am: | |
Pernicious!
Certainly explains why highly placed SDA pastors are putting Islam in a favorable light...
'God has no son'
just a facsimile |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 663
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 2:01 pm: | |
I was given a New World Translation by some JW aquaintances of mine, which I now quote:
"because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily" Col 2:9 - NWT.
Which turns a totally awesome verse about Jesus into something that means absolutely nothing whatsoever.
It makes me wonder what fear of God those people have who deliberately distort the Scriptures for their own purposes....
Adrian |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1705
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 4:19 pm: | |
Maybe it is because I just came out of the hospital a few days ago with a minor stroke, but I can't see the difference. Maybe I need a grammar lesson here. I'm serious.
Col. 2:9
ESV 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily
HCSB 9 For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ,
NASB 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
NIV 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
KJV 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
NWT "because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily"
Col 2:9
NWT because it is in him That all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily
KJV For In him all the fullness of the Godhead Dwelleth… bodily
NASB For In Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
NIV For In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form
ESV For In him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily
HCSB For In Christ the entire fullness of God’s nature2 dwells bodily3
Can anybody tell me how to make a table in this forum?
Thanks,
Hec |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1706
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 4:30 pm: | |
I figured it out how to make the table. This looks better.
| Col 2:9 | | | | | | | NWT | because | it is in him | That all the fullness | of the divine quality | dwells bodily | | KJV | For | In him | all the fullness | of the Godhead | Dwelleth… bodily | | NASB | For | In Him | all the fullness | of Deity | dwells in bodily form | | NIV | For | In Christ | all the fullness | of the Deity | lives in bodily form | | ESV | For | In him | the whole fullness | of deity | dwells bodily | | | | HCSB | For | In Christ | the entire fullness | of God’s nature2 | dwells bodily | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Hec |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12458
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 4:58 pm: | |
Hec, think of it as apple pie. I mean absolutely no irreverence. I used to think of God as the whole pie, and the "Godhead" was the pie cut into three pieces: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Each piece had the fulness of the "divine quality"; each piece was FULLY "apple pie". But in the case of an apple pie, a seed left in among the apples would only show up in one piece of that pie, and an unstirred clump of brown sugar might make another piece especially sweet at one particular place. In other words, although each piece is FULLY apple pie, each piece does not fully have "all the fullness" of the entire pie. The uniqueness of the pie would not be fully present in any of those pieces. It would be distributed among the three, but they would not equally share the seed or the brown sugar clump.
What I've come to understand is that every detail of "God" is equally in all three of the members of the Trinity. In other words, using the pie metaphor, all three pieces would share that seed as well as that clump of brown sugar. There is no part of God that is absent from Jesus or the Father or the Holy Spirit. Every single attribute is present equally in each of them. God is One—but He is not "modal". In other words, He is in three Persons, not merely one that manifests differently at different times.
But all three share ALL the attributes of God equally. The NWT wording just means He's "divine"--he's "apple pie" but not necessarily the piece with the seed. In other words, God gave Him His divinity, but that doesn't make Him "all God".
Jesus, however, is "All God". His role is different from the Father and the Spirit, but His attributes and substance and purposes are the same.
Colleen
BTW, how are you? I'm so sorry about the stroke...I'm glad you're back. Let us know how you are! |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3636
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 5:11 pm: | |
Hec,
The SDAs and JWs are saying that Jesus has all of the divine qualities/functions/attributes but that He is not actually God--the one Supreme Divine Being, "the whole fullness of" the (one and only) essence/substance/nature/being of the Deity (the meaning of the Greek word theotes, translated "Deity" or "Godhead" in English).
Jeremy
P.S. Sorry to hear about your stroke, and glad you're doing better!
(Message edited by Jeremy on April 04, 2011) |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 9136
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 5:36 pm: | |
Hec, I am so sorry to hear you had another stroke, if I am remembering correctly. Take care of yourself. Follow your doctor's orders and take it easy. Praying for you. Asking Awesome God to be with you.
Diana L |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1338
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2011 - 7:15 pm: | |
Be well Hec 
Praying for your complete recovery. |
Gregkleinig
Registered user
Username: Gregkleinig
Post Number: 23
Registered: 12-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 6:17 am: | |
G'day all. As one who has intellectually left Sdaism but not physically (I attend for my matrimonal solidarity) and as one who has only ever experienced SDAism in Australia, although the SS quarterly attempts to bring worldwide uniformity, I am often confused as to the vast differences I see between what you people have experienced in American AdventistChurches and what I have experienced here in regional (away from city) Australia. For example I have always seen the Trinity as all fully God and have preached on the Mesianic prophecy in Isaiah (..."Everlasting Father.") and Jesus statement when a disciple asks to be shown the Father; "have I been with you so long and you didn't know me - if you've seen me you've seen the Father".
Many people in the congregation said they had never known that. Was I accidentally preaching Adventist heresy? That is heresy to an SDA but truth according to the Bible.
Are there other non-Americans regularly posting or are you mostly from the USA?
I am at the stage where I don't want to be associated with any church groups at all but just enjoy one on one or small group fellowship. I don't think, at least now, that I ever want to attend another church ever. Yet I really enjoy this forum? Is this normal for exiters?
The Aussie. |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 1147
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 12:26 pm: | |
Dear Aussie, after my 16 years in Adventism, I went back to a mainstream Protestant church for several years and mostly enjoyed it. Although, I never did feel completely at home there.
Then about 14 months ago I had a najor upheaval in my family that had nothing to do with church. I quit attending any church, because I just can't deal with the level of emotion (albeit good emotion) I experience when I'm at church. The music is the hardest to endure and it's very good music. It's so good it makes me cry, and that triggers a deluge of emotion that's related to my family problems.
Not to mention, after 16 years in Adventism, my whole spiritual outlook is so skewed I can't enjoy Bible studies and other church activities like I could before Adventism. I get frustrated with the kinds of teaching that, looking back, I now understand were what set me up to be easy prey for Adventism.
I feel guilty, because of the verse that says, "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together." But I figure I am assembling with other Christians on this forum. |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 1148
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 12:33 pm: | |
Oops, Aussie! I just realized you were asking for non-Americans to answer you. I'm in the USA. SORRY. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 9138
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 1:43 pm: | |
Greg, there is another Aussie on here who posts infrequently. There is a former sda from Australia on CARM and on Facebook. I am sure he is not registered on here. Get my email from the members section and write to me. I will tell you his name.
Diana L |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1707
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 2:46 pm: | |
OK, as I see your answers, I guess the issue is with the phrase "divine quality'. What would be the difference between "divine quality of NWT" and God's nature of HCSB"?
Hec |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3638
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 4:25 pm: | |
Hec,
I assume that the HCSB is using the phrase "God's nature" to mean the divine essence. The HCSB also has a footnote which says: "a. Colossians 2:9 Or the deity"
Jeremy |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1834
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 6:06 pm: | |
Hec, I think they're just trying to "muddy the waters" and undermine Jesus' divinity by that statement.
(Message edited by Asurprise on April 05, 2011) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12470
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 6:29 pm: | |
And by the way , Greg--your reaction is actually fairly typical. Yes, we in the USA did learn that all the Trinity was All God...but we didn't learn that they shared "substance". And yes, Jesus' statement about if they've seen Him, they've seen the Father is one of the most commonly used verses to support the "bloodless atonement" theory that is rampant among "progressive Adventists". In other words, Jesus was kind and loving, and so is God--and He would never REQUIRE His son to die. It's skewed from the ground up...
Yes, it's hard to go to church after leaving. Yet ultimately, even if there's a period of isolation, it's essential that we put ourselves in fellowship. When we become part of the REAL body of Christ, we must have one another to grow and function properly.
I think many of us go through times of pain and other turmoil that makes us pull away--including times of deep mistrust of "church". But ultimately, we learn from one another, and it's important to learn that the SDA church experience is not normal. It's a cult that masquerades as Christianity, and its fellowship is driven not by the Holy Spirit making believers one in Christ but by the common "specialness" of Adventist uniqueness. It's not the real deal...it's a counterfeit fellowship.
We have to learn to function in the Body, being open to learn a new way of understanding reality and the Bible as we stay grounded in Scripture. But yes...it's VERY common!
Colleen |
Bobj
Registered user
Username: Bobj
Post Number: 574
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 10:48 pm: | |
Thanks Jeremy, for this and so many other great posts!
Hec, glad you are OK!
Colleen, the analogy on the apple pie is helpful! I'd never thought of it in such an easy to explain way!
Bob |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1125
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2011 - 2:05 pm: | |
The interpretation of the Three Faces of God has never been clear to my understanding.
Sometimes it seems we are splitting hairs, though I do agree, there can be only One God.
Correct me if I am off the scope , but this is how I try to grasp the Trinity of God.
One God with three forms or manifestations.
One God, One Spirit, Three expressions.
I wonder if The Beings of God are coalesced into one Spirit , possesing three Minds, but when merged exist as one Spirit.
Here is the pivot point;
While Jesus said that He and The Father were One.
He also referred to Him as being outside of Himself, praying to God above.
God The Father spoke from above down towards Christ. Christ sent The Comforter after He departed from the Apostles.
I accept that there is ONE God. But it appears in communications quoted in Scripture that the Manifestations of God can and do occur Separately. Emanating from One Spirit/Mind.
Jim
(Message edited by jim02 on April 16, 2011) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12507
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2011 - 10:34 pm: | |
Jim, we simply can't know exactly how it works. But we do know that "modalism", or the idea that there is one Person who manifests himself three different ways is not true. It is a heresy that was addressed centuries ago, in fact.
God is one "Being" in three Persons, and exactly how that "works" we don't know, but we know it does. The three are mentioned as distinct individuals repeatedly throughout the NT.
Jesus prayed to the Father and promised His disciples that He and the Father would send the Spirit after His ascension.
One thing we know: God is not an impersonal "force". All three persons are persons!
Colleen |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1578
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 10:25 am: | |
Jim,
Biblically it would never work to say that God simply has three manifestations or expressions. Biblically God is defined by eternal relationships. There are true subject/object distinctions between these persons. So the Father loves the Son. The Son loves the Father. The Father sends the Spirit. The Spirit sends the Father. The Spirit glorifies the Father. The Spirit glorfies the Son. The Son prays to the Father. The Father speaks to the Son. The Son reveals the Father. The Father is not the Son or the Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Spirit. The Spirit is not the Father or the Son. And yet, the Father, Son, and Spirit are one single spirit being of one essence or one substance. That one being is eternally defined by relationships between co-eternal, co-equal personal distinctions. We can't fathom it because God is so much bigger than us and we are mere finite created beings. That's good. The God revealed in Scripture is worth worship and deserves our awe. |
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