| Author | Message | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 584 Registered: 7-2005 |
@Hec I deeply resonate with your concerns. For years I thought that only God can judge Ellen White. I assumed that I can function pretty well as an agnostic in this area. Unfortunately irrational fears and feelings of being cursed and lost due to my departure from adventist raised their ugly heads from time to time. I had to fight them back, but I felt less prepared to do. The problem is that in spiritual war hesitancy can be fatal. Only when I read and re-read Jude's epistle I got the weapon: fighting for the faith is rooted in the reality of false teachers being under God's curse, predestined for judgment. Until this truth does not take deep root in our mind, we will hesitate when things get rough. Spiritual war is like physical war: you need to know the enemy, and who's on your side or on the enemy's side. When the enemy is firing at you, you need to fire back, otherwise you'll die. It's either you or him. In our case, it's either we or Ellen. Either we, the former adventists who rejected the adventist gospel are going to spend eternity in heaven and Ellen in hell, or it's the other way around. This is because she cursed us, she was adamantly clear, extremely clear that anybody who's abandoning the sabbath after he kept it is forever lost. She clearly classified Ballenger who rejected the Investigative Judgment and the adventist sanctuary theology as being under the influence of demons, as being from the devil. The entire adventist system is built to impress the idea that, while those who never embraced it may be saved because of their ignorance, those who embrace it and rejected it, are apostate, lost, cursed forever, anathema. If I had another option, I'll gladly took it, but I found, studying Jude, that placing a "Woe" on false teachers is built in the fabric of fighting for the faith. When the temptations come, when adventists and old tapes tell you that you're condemned, lost forever, it's only half a task responding "I'm justified forever, I'm blessed forever, get out of here" I wish all I had to do is only affirm the positive part and let the negative out. What I discovered is that both the positive part and the negative functions as a whole. When the temptation arise to see yourself as lost, cursed, you have to put the curse where it belongs. Especially when the authoritative voice of the SDA Church cursed you, it's necessary to put the curse where it belongs, on her shoulders, "No, I'm not cursed, you are, for you rejected God's grace". If it wouldn't be necessary, I will gladly tell you that you can "live and let live". I'm afraid that many adventists who left adventism for a time due to legalism and were inclined toward grace, either came to see themselves as lost but incapable of swallowing the adventist story, or came into the fold again. There is power in the adventist curse. It's not benign. It's real danger outside, we truly need to be established in the truth. In my view Jude's gospel offers us a perspective that will help us solve a lot of problems. Gabriel (Message edited by Jackob on April 10, 2011) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1720 Registered: 3-2009 |
Test the spirit, judge the prophet, evaluate their teachings to see if they come from God. That's a judgment that we are commanded to do. Judge them to salvation or perdition is not ours to do. Only Jesus has that authority. That's where I think we are stepping in soft sand. Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3656 Registered: 10-2004  |
15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16"You will know them by their fruits. [...] 19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20"So then, you will know them by their fruits." We can ("will") know that they are a false prophet/ravenous wolf/bad tree and that they will be thrown into the fire. Jesus has judged them and has told us. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 10, 2011) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1721 Registered: 3-2009 |
We don't know their last seconds of their lives. Only Jesus does. Hec | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1154 Registered: 7-2005  |
Her last words were, "I know *in* whom I have believed." I must be pretty dense. I'm baffled, Jeremy. How do these words prove she did not repent on her deathbed? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2440 Registered: 5-2007  |
The bible is very clear that we are to test the words of anyone who claims to be a prophet of God by comparing their words against the written word of God, the Holy Bible. Since Ellen White fails this test over and over, I have no trouble labeling her a false prophet. My grandmother, who personally knew her, testifies that "she was a loving caring woman". Whether or not that was true, I can not say because only God can see into a person's heart. I do not care to speculate on what I do not and can not know. It is also said of Ted Bundy that he confessed his sins and accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior. Who am I to say otherwise in either case? Fearless Phil | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1722 Registered: 3-2009 |
Her last audible words were, "I know *in* whom I have believed." Could God here non-audible words that her companions did not? Please understand that I'm not defending that she is saved or not. The only one who has that prerogative is the Lord. I'm defending the fact that no one of us knows if she is or not, and any thing we say about that is speculation. We don't want to make speculation into Biblical truth as much logical as it may look. Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3657 Registered: 10-2004 |
Honestwitness, It means that she still believed in the same false "Jesus" she had preached her entire life. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 10, 2011) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12490 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gabriel and Jeremy, VERY good points. You know, I have been convinced for a long time that the Bible is very clear about the future of false prophets. While I cannot personally attest to EGWs deathbed hours, I do know what Jude and Moses in Deuteronomy and Jesus said about false prophets, and I have to know the word of God is truthful. What I find very compelling is Gabriel's point that if we do not fully "own" and know that fact that EGW was a false prophet who delivered messages from evil (mental illness would never come up with the complexity of Adventism that consistently gives Satan a central role and the the job of final sin-bearer), we are keeping ourselves vulnerable to remaining inside the "curse" of Adventism, of a false gospel. If we can't clearly acknowledge EGW was evil, we cannot be clear about what and who we were and we can't repent. We remain equivocal. Also, the difference between knowing "whom I have believed" and knowing "in whom I have believed" is huge. The biblical "know" is an intimate term that refers to marital intimacy. "Knowing" Jesus is intimate; it refers to the new birth, to the Holy Spirit literally indwelling us when we believe. We are known by Him, and we know Him. It is not an intellectual term; it is a spiritual, identity term. Knowing "in whom I have believed" is not an intimate phrase. It refers to intellectual comprehension of whoever it is in whom she believed. It completely misses the intimacy of "knowing" whom one believes. She did not use the biblical expression. She did not identify the Lord Jesus in that phrase, and she did not state she knew whom she believed. That statement was majorly deceiving. Colleen | ||
| Cauliflower Registered user Username: Cauliflower Post Number: 29 Registered: 2-2011 |
I do have to wonder how mental illness plays into how God "judges" us. I personally believe that more than anything else EGW was mentally ill (from her brain injury). It's sad that she led so many people astray, but what if it was the mental illness that did it? And I do not believe that every mental illness is the devil taking over someone's body. That's like saying that my mom, who had multiple brain tumors was possessed by the devil too. Mental illness is just another form of physical illness. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12493 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cauliflower, mental illness is not the same as evil. We have a ministry at our church for developmentally handicapped adults. These people worship, often as a large group, in one of the services every Sunday before they go to their own Sunday school class. These people know and love Jesus. Their worship is unforced and genuine; it overwhelmed me to see them when we first started attending several years ago. Ellen very likely did have some brain damage. But whether or not she did, brain damage cannot explain her willful copying of others' work and saying God showed her...nor can it explain or excuse her minions who helped her compose those books and who knew she copied but kept her secret. Her brain damage cannot explain her cold and calculating destruction of good men who opposed her in her later years, men such as Ballanger who did not believe in her revelations and whom she slandered and banished to England. Brain damage cannot account for the "testimonies" she wrote and sometimes spoke publicly to people, chastising them for some sin or another and publicly exposing them. Brain damage also cannot account for the complex but completely seamless and interconnected theology of Adventism that depends not only upon Sabbath but upon humans who have no spirits and upon a "great controversy worldview" in which Satan is a central player in the salvation story, ultimately bearing sins out of heaven in the final act of cleansing. God does not judge people based upon illness, physical or mental. He judges us based upon whether or not we KNOW Jesus—whether or not we have been born again. That, according to Jesus (Jn 3:3-6) is the requirement for seeing the kingdom of God. Mentally ill and physically ill people can be born again and know the Lord Jesus. Mentally and physically ill people can also be sold out to evil, receiving power or notoriety from their commitment to deception or other atrocities. Jesus said by their fruits you will know them. Mentally ill people can still bear good fruit...if they know Jesus. But they won't if they don't know Him. If they have embraced power from Satan, they will do great harm—as would a person without a mental illness who embraced evil. Colleen | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 909 Registered: 7-2004 |
I see your point Colleen, about her willful copying of others' work and saying God showed her is evil. I imagine that she was great at justifying her behavior to the point of convincing herself that she was doing the right thing. I'm sure that is how Satan works....the seed is planted, and it is watered and it grows and grows, just like Pinocchio's nose. I am with Hec though about pronouncing judgement on anyone. I think we can safely draw up a pretty good guess as to what God will do with an individual, but thankfully, he knows the hearts and is just. I have attended a Baptist church for years now, and that has been my biggest irritation, that certain people will go around and pronounce anyone from street people to celebrities as either "saved" or "lost". Our Sunday school teacher was the most vocal, and would say that he wasn't judging, he was just a "fruit inspector". Well, I do know that we are able to inspect fruits, and in doing so we can either reach out to attempt to lead them to Jesus, or embrace them as a brother or sister in Christ, but I still want to leave the ultimate decision of salvation or perdition to Jesus. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 886 Registered: 7-2004  |
If someone came along with evidence that she actually did repent of her deeds and deceptions then I would have to seriously given the issue some prayerful consideration. BUT all of the evidence is that she remained steadfast in her teachings to her death. As a result, bouncing the hypothetical question back and forth might be fun but it doesn't have any real world implications. She was a false prophet and a false teacher who promoted a false gospel and Scripture indicates that she is condemned to the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in eternal punishment. (I used that description specifically for those people who can't accept the doctrine of Hell since every one of these descriptors is a direct quote from Christ Himself.) | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 913 Registered: 7-2008  |
Question.... Was Ellen White lying all along..or did she really believe all she said and wrote? Hmmm..Maybe my question doesnt make sense?...sigh ...Animal | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 531 Registered: 4-2007 |
Anyone who would write this ain't innocent. The additions in blue were shown to me during a nightmare after being hit with an indigestion. Without the proper interpretation by Ellen White, scripture cannot be understood or trusted: I am instructed to say (as told to ME by my guide, a young man of noble appearance*)... we are not to receive the words of those (apostates) who come with a (Bible only) message that contradicts the special points (that I have produced or endorsed, such as the Sabbath, 1844, IJ, diet, perfectionism…MY distinctives) of our faith. They (apostates) gather together a mass of Scripture (not interpreted by ME), and pile it as proof around their asserted (Bible only) theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while (some of) the Scriptures (are possibly inspired and) are God's word (many are just the personal opinions of the writers, mainly Paul, and are to be disregarded), and are to be respected (but not taken literally), (ignore) the application of them (anything not interpreted by ME) , if such application moves (contradicts) (MY writings) one pillar (same as 'special points', see above) from the foundation that God (as established and interpreted by ME,) has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He (an apostate) who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit (I am the Spirit of Prophecy, MY writings! MY interpretations!) that gave power and force to the past messages that have come (by ME; much more than just a Prophet) to the (chosen) people of God (the REMNANT, The Seventh Day Adventist Church).--Letter 329, 1905 (Selected Messages, Vol 1, page 160-161). *"The following night I dreamed that a young man of noble appearance came into the room where I was, immediately after I had been speaking. This same person has appeared before me in important dreams to instruct me from time to time during the past twenty-six years." Signs of the Times, Nov. 11, 1875; Counsels on Health, p. 465. (Message edited by JONVIL on April 11, 2011) | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 532 Registered: 4-2007 |
Probably too much rootbeer | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 914 Registered: 7-2008 |
My question has been answered...thank you...lol lol Animal...likes a straight answer | ||
| Cauliflower Registered user Username: Cauliflower Post Number: 31 Registered: 2-2011 |
Did they have root beer back then? ;) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 888 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jonvil, That was a great clarification of EGWs statement. You must be extremely bitter and terribly hurt to recognize that much truth. Tongue planted so far into cheek that people at the airport are giving me funny looks. | ||
| Cauliflower Registered user Username: Cauliflower Post Number: 33 Registered: 2-2011 |
Don't blame the funny looks on your tongue. ;) |
