| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1115 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have from time to time tried various ways to search out the Sabbath question on the Internet. To see what the debates are on both sides of the issue. The main thing I realize is that the question sets up the answer. Or the answer depends upon how you ask the question. You see, you can get an apparently accurate conclusion to a question, and even reference scriptures to back it up, if you accept or assume presuppositions to the question. For example. There is no scriptural statement that transfers Sabbath to Sunday in the New Testament. You can hammer that truth home in so many ways. In much the same way, you can even firmly affix and perpetuate the obligation to the 10 commandments. Thus, you quickly set up a circular argument within the reasoning of the presuppositions. But then comes the Grace and Law debate. The position that the Law itself ended at the cross. That we are no longer under the law, under the supervision of the law, that we are set free from the law. That we live by The Spirit which is now The Law of Christ, not written in letters upon the stone tablets, but upon our hearts. Thus establishing a versatile and adaptable system of moral and intuitively guided Spiritual sense of right and wrong. Knowing that these two approaches exist. I find that it only carries me so far. Perhaps part of that reason is, as I review the rebuttals or explanations between the assorted mainline churches, almost without exception their explanations are inconsistent with their premise or presuppositions. Most in fact confuse the concepts between the Law and Grace and the Old and New Covenants. They tend to merge law and traditions together. This only forces me to keep looking for a way to deal with it and somehow address where and on what basis to seek fellowship in a new church. One of the main issues is, I know before going in, that unless I have a system or means to remain neutral or passive in some appropriate sense, I will run into conflict with Pastors who hammer people about proper Sunday observances and paying a faithful tithe. If they can prove to me that we should and are duty bound to observe these Sunday regulations and tithe obligations then they at the same swipe convince me to return to Sabbath theology. At least that would be consistent with it's own presuppositions. Is there anyone out there who understands what I am pointing out here? Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1116 Registered: 5-2007 |
There is a follow-up thought here as well. A hundred times now, I have tried to convince myself to go visit the SDA church again. It's been about 8 or 9 years since I was there. Thinking, well, I could go EGW lite. In other words, try to be there for fellowship and at least be around people who do not think you stepped out of a UFO. (Hi I was SDA). That while I have serious doubts about EGW, the law and the legalism, there is familiar ground and actually most of the time, a lot less confusion. But, there too, conflict. Which is why I have not gone back. They represent legalism and bondage to it. I realize, I have to make peace with this one way or the other. I have been on the outside long past enough now. I keep asking myself what it the real hold up. Aside from the things already mentioned, it comes down to belonging. I have lost that and in all my attempts these past years, visiting churches, studying, praying. I have not found where I belong, where I fit, or any sense of peace about it. Mostly, church has degenerated into a jaded sense of best guesses and just go with it. It is suggested that I just go and be there, wherever there is and not worry about the missing parts. The problem is, I look about me and see all these glazed eyed folks enraptured in bliss of finding their truth because the pastor says so And they just go with the flow because that is what they always knew. In my case, I no longer have that luxury. I have no church anchor from childhood to rest upon. Spiritually homeless. It is no wonder, I wonder if going back to the SDA is better than no fellowship at all. But then there are those here who claim that the SDA are not Christian, heretical and other colorful terms. Yet, honestly, in the three plus decades there, I never sensed that Spirit. Christ was always Supreme. The religion, how they perceived duty was what became the conflict. The issues about EGW. I have not ignored that. I had my reasons for leaving. There is a sense of security in the past. Maybe that is where a lot of this comes from. Wanting to be home again. I live in the Bible Belt south. I can assure you it is a dessert to outsiders. For a culturally alien former SDA, fitting in is pretty difficult. Still, there must be a way. I just have not found it yet. Jim02 | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1896 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi Jim, Who exactly is imposing a Sunday observance on Christians? I don't know any mainstream Christian who believes they are bound to Sunday regulations. Also, will you provide names of churches/pastors who hammer people about proper Sunday observance and paying a faithful tithe? I've gone to a mainstream church my whole life. Outside of my SDA family, everyone else I know is a mainstream Christian and like me, have never heard of any of those regulations. Again, please provide more information/doctrine/names. Thanks! Leigh Anne | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 150 Registered: 8-2010  |
Jim, Perhaps you know somewhat how the Apostle Paul felt as he agonized for his people the Jews. Or for that matter a little of how Christ felt dying in agony as those he purposed to save rejected him. He was God they saw him and talked with him they despised him. Rest assured you feelings are not unique, at times I have them too. However, I know the Holy Spirit does not lie when He reveals something. I am one of those who say the true 13 point Adventists (as there are 13 covenants in their catechism or Baptismal Vow) are not Christian. I am not shy about it as I was almost one "11/13" for 28 years and I know the christ that the SDA teachings lead me to was NOT the real Christ. I am equally unashamed to say if you are not a 13 point Adventist then brother you are NOT Adventist, you really just might be a Christian. I base this from what I was told by the GC Conference Office's Ministerial Division that because I did not believe it ALL, after 28 years, I was probably not Adventist; that my participation in the hour of worship as Lead Deacon would only serve to confuse others. Here in Dallas, TX it's as Bible-belt as one can get. When we stepped into our first Christian Church I felt as if everyone could tell where I came from--SDA stamped on my forehead or on my lapel. The odor of Adventism was on my suit, I imagined I smelled like a wreaking alcoholic in the pew. Frankly, some of the questions and comments I first made were probably more revealing of my Adventism than anything else. However church is were the weak, wretched and sinners go to learn and grow in Christ; my foibles were to be expected, but I grow. I empathize with you Brother, but know this, our God did not call any of us by name at our appointed time, only so he could loose us to discouragement; there is plan for each fSDA. Tell me how I can pray for you! In His Grip, Benard (Message edited by wiredog on April 06, 2011) | ||
| Grace1958_f Registered user Username: Grace1958_f Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2011 |
Thought I would share a verse that has always encouraged me in times of quandary: Jeremiah 29:11 . . . For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord," plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1149 Registered: 7-2005  |
Jim, I understand what you're saying. I am a member of a Presbyterian church, and there are folks in the church who teach a vague kind of obligation to observe a sabbath on Sunday. They also teach tithing. One of these people is an elder and one is a pastor. These things have been taught from the pulpit. I squirm when I sit under that teaching. However, they teach a lot of other very good doctrine that I find refreshing. I still haven't been to that church or any church for over a year, because it takes a certain level of emotional strength to be a regular participating member of any church and I don't have that strength right now. Two of my sons are facing allegations of crimes that could put them in prison for decades. That situation has sapped my emotional strength to the point that I can't face the music of church participation, so to speak. I wonder if your divorce has wounded you so deeply that you don't yet have enough strength to participate in a church setting, where you will be challenged on a regular basis to face conflicts of doctrine and contribute your money and time to programs or committees. I completely understand how that feels. I keep telling myself I need to get back to regular church attendance. However, myself keeps providing me with plausible-sounding excuses why it's easier and safer to stay home. I get my fellowship by coming here to this forum. | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 431 Registered: 7-2010 |
Jim, The question you are looking for the answer to is, "Why does God need to see me keep the Sabbath?" But you won't find the answer on the internet. In John chapter 4 where Jesus is talking to the woman at the well He explains, Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:22-24) If we worship God in spirit and in truth, don't you think He knows we love Him? Does He need to see me do anything? No, He knows my heart better than I do. Jesus summed up the 10C's into 2C's Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40) So if I love the Lord my God with all that I am, don't you think He knows it? He doesn't have to see me do anything (the works/deeds of the law). So if I love the Lord my God with all that I am everyday, am I not fulfilling the first 4 commandments? Paul writes in Romans 13 that by doing no harm to my neighbor I'm fulfilling the other commandments. Why isn't Loving the Lord my God with all that I am, fulfilling the other four? Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:8-10) You see how the question comes up now? Why does God need to see me do anything? If I claim He is in me, then He already knows doesn't He? I understand the need for fellowship, and how difficult it can be to find it with other Christians. Because there are so many denominational teachings out there. But the thing we have to remember is, our relationship with Him is personal. As long as we keep our focus on Him, that's all that matters. Spend some time with Him, and He will lead you to the church He has in mind for you. | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 182 Registered: 4-2005 |
Jim, I have certainly felt some of the things you have shared. I think I understand most of what you have described and from my own experience find confidence that there is a path the Spirit is leading you along where you will find healing and koinonia. He keeps working that out for me and that has given me evidence of His promise to "never leave" or "forsake" us. I found in my own case that I have "found joy" and Christian community where I did not expect and healing when I had given up hope. For someone who was marinated in SDA culture [my first memories are of Church services and evangelistic meetings] and was saddled with almost 7 years of SDA theological training, it was the cold realization that NOTHING in SDAism did it for me [doctrinally or spiritually] anymore and the religious "cold war" rhetoric I had been fed told me that there were no churchs that had the truth. I was trapped and alone. Enter: Jesus. I threw myself on him and disavowed religion and asked God to lead me on a path of His choosing and vowed that I would not put up conditions or resist. In answer to that prayer, he has lead me to strange places and people [people who had not bowed to Baal]. Some churches and people were from the reformed tradition and others from the Arminian wing of Christianity, even some from cold "formal" "fallen" churches but each time God used the friendship or ocassion to speak into my life and bind my heart and life to His. Looking back over the past 15 to 20 years I shake my head in wonder, for I have put roots down into various church communities, I have learned from Christian friends who have been Penticostal, Anglician, Baptist, Catholic, Mennonite, Vineyard, Calvary Chapel, Reformed and Alliance but it has always been about Jesus defining my journey, my path and my faith. I know and understand so little but that is "small potatoes" as long as the Spirit is defining my life and journey, as long as I am saved. Church is a place to pitch this "tent" and live in community. Ben, Amen Thanks my Friends Despair merely drives me to prayer and seeking Him and in the strangest places I find that He provides healing and nurture. [example - some of us came here to "check out" this site believing the rumours only to find support, understanding and a community of believers]. Jesus calls us to be in community, unlike real estate where it is all about "location, location, location" in the Christian life it is all about "following, following, following" the Lamb and the Pauline teaching on the "body of Christ" drives me to seek community. Jim & Honestwittnes, I pray that you will find a place in a "community" at His "right time". Paul Cross | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1117 Registered: 5-2007 |
I am asked to name names. I have asked for (in the past) and even searched the web for an orthodox Christian, mainline Church that does not teach Tithing, or does not teach it by default or tradition. I could not find one thus far. It is not my purpose to accuse or malign anyone’s church. I did not mean it that way. The context of my preface to the question was that I was searching for a way to ‘cope or handle’ the fact that I will often find myself having to disagree or ignore some teachings of a Church when they cross over into Old Testament re-application of law or legal duty to perform an act so as to meet the expectations of that Church (or it's Pastor). The question of the tithe being required has been a subject of contention for ages. I have studied the subject and the model of our giving is not taught as a tithing system in the NT. I paid my tithe for decades and in fact I continued to pay it to the SDA church for years, even after I had left! It was not until coming to this forum did I realize that tithing was not commanded in the NT. After studying on the topic I made a change in my approach to giving. Now I give in a systematic way, but also as I am impressed where the need is. One of the problems I had with the SDA system of tithe was that it prevented any direct act of participation in the tithe. It was more like a Tax. You paid it, and then it was sent to the conference. The Church itself and all other areas of need were left to offerings. Perhaps, in the larger picture, this worked for the Conference, but individually, it created disconnect issues and guilt trips if you could not afford the extra. Why is it such a strong point for me? Because 'IF' it can be argued that the tithe is obligatory, transcending the law or the old covenant, or whatever other argument used in the legal context. Then at the same time, simply insert the word Sabbath in place of tithe and you have talked me right back into being under the law. For the same logic points that defend tithing, also apply to the Sabbath. (Precedent prior to the giving of the law) Then the other strong point: Sunday Observance and implications to an obligation towards it or elevating it to a superior day. If you go down that path, again you are arguing for the Sabbath and the law once again. If a church uses the 10 commandments as a working model, (and most do), then again they are attempting to pick and choose their systems of law. In coming away from SDA theology, everything hinged upon the law. Are we under it or not? Are we obligated to the (old written) law(s) or not? Are we married to two systems or one? I am seeking consistency and I have not found it anywhere. Thus back to my first preface. I have concluded there are no systems that are consistent. Yet fellowship is vital. I was asking in essence, how do others fit in and engage while at the same time knowing that they have to ignore some of the teachings and just be silent about it? Beyond this whole subject, I am not even sure of myself or my own conclusions regarding any of the topics. It still haunts me that I may be in mixed error on all of it and by evidence of the theologies in the mainline faiths. It may be they are partially wrong about the law too. Setting that aside, I have been attempting to grow in the new knowledge as I understand it from scripture. If a church teaches me back into the law in any way then I end up with even more confusion. In my SDA days, I may not have achieved every precept taught, but at least I had a steady heading towards the objectives. Now, even if I wanted to go back, so much damage has been done, I have burned the theological bridge home. To even go back, I would have to ignore things there as well. Such as EGW errors, Abortion, and Tithing. Unless of course I revalidate their teachings in whole. (Nothing else seems to work) This is why I am caught in the vacuum. I must choose. Make the transition to a new church, go back to SDA, or continue unchurched. By default, still un-churched. I was not attacking any church. I was attempting to express where some of this confusion is coming from and to search for possible approaches to working through it. Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1119 Registered: 5-2007 |
Honestwitness, I left a message for you in the members section. Jim | ||
| Mkfound Registered user Username: Mkfound Post Number: 65 Registered: 1-2011 |
I think part of the problem we formers might face, when leaving the SDA church, is that we've been told that the SDA church is the TRUE church. Therefore, upon leaving--that idea lingers in our minds. We set off looking for the TRUE church, and I think there is no true church, per se, but the Truth we are seeking for is Jesus. I can't say I've 'found' the church yet, but I have found one that I like, and may settle down in. And I loved to worship there, because I knew we were really worshipping Jesus, as he was the focal point of everything done there. I remember one Saturday, when I was still debating the Sabbath question, going to a Messianic church. They follow many of the Jewish traditions of worship, and most of the service was based in the Old Testament. Sabbath morning began with a 2 hour Torah study. There were multiple long sections of readings from the first 5 books of Moses. There was a single reading from Isaiah, and one from Corinthians. The gospel was scantly mentioned, and I found the focus was nearly entirely on the law, and different rituals there. The Sabbath service lasted from 9 am till after 2:30, and after leaving, I felt exhausted, like I had been working hard labor all day! I had a number of issues--one of which was that I barely heard Jesus name, and that we had spent nearly all day looking at various laws. e.g. circumsicion--must do in order to become a member (I'm female, so it didn't personally matter, but we know the Bible is clear on that one) e.g. many various rituals, such a carrying the Torah around and having the people touch it, praying towards the east, singing in Hebrew (although most of the congretation was of other ethnic groups), praying in Hebrew e.g. examining laws such as why to build a parapet on a roof, why not to kill a mother bird and her young, sowing a field with various seeds, etc. etc. Now to clarify--I am not saying that the above things in order to criticize the church. Now i see that every church service is an opportunity to reach to the sinner, and tell of Jesus and his love, saving grace and mercy. And there I was starving for the gospel; I desperately wanted to be saved, as this was just a few weeks after my brother passed away. And I was like 'God, please save me, I want to see my brother again'. So--the question on my lips was--God, show me how to be saved? This is the question that led me out of the SDA church, by the way. So, one of the last things on my mind were, what type of seed I needed to put into my field, nevermind that I don't own a field!  That same day, I went to a non-denominational service that was the total opposite of what I had experienced the Sabbath morning. Jesus was everywhere. We praised Jesus. We talked of Jesus. The sermon was of the blind man who cried out to Jesus, 'Have mercy on me'. Incidentally, that was my cry, and to hear that Jesus did answer, and would answer filled me with hope. So Jim, that's my long answer of my opinion on a true church. I believe that there members of Jesus' church all around in the world, and in varying denominations, and each believer that worship Him in spirit and in truth, is his true church. And I concur, fellowship is really important. I hope you find some here with us. I will pray for you. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1841 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jim; I'd leave the internet alone myself. The answer is simple and in the New Testament (New Covenant). Sunday or Monday either for that matter, isn't a Sabbath any more than the old seventh-day Sabbath is anymore. Jesus is the Sabbath now! (Colossians 2:16,17; Romans 14:5; Hebrews 4:7 and even Hebrews 8:13) Also the Gentiles were never given the law (Romans 2:14). What was the difference between Jews and Gentiles anyway? The answer is that the Jews had the law. But Jesus tore down that wall by His death (Ephesians 2:14-15). Rest in Jesus, my friend. He is your Sabbath Rest now. | ||
| Rossbondreturns Registered user Username: Rossbondreturns Post Number: 142 Registered: 10-2009  |
Amen! Asurprise, couldn't have put it better. | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 795 Registered: 1-2007 |
Jim, tithing is not the same in christian churches as in the sda church. In sda tithing is a demand based on the ot. In christian churches the word tithe does not mean the same as in sda churches. Yes, the word tithe is used in some churches, or gifts, etc. but it does not have the 10%+ sigma attached to it. Jesus wants a cheerful giver not someone who is stressed in giving a certain amount above being able to care for their family as the sdas demanded. I was once told that all the tithe money went to the gc to pay the pastors and they all got the same amount regardless of if they had one or many churches. If this is true the pastor of many churches was actually making less than the pastor with one church. Help! those of you who were pastors before you left, was this true? Gail |
