| Author | Message | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 267 Registered: 8-2006 |
Ok, I had to share this, I found it disturbing to the core. Speculations of Righteousness by faith -Many commit the error of trying to define minutely the fine points of distinction between justification and sanctification. Into the definitions of these two terms they often bring their own ideas and speculations. Why try to be more minute than is Inspiration on the vital question of Righteousness by Faith? Why try to work out every minute point, as if salvation of the soul depended upon all having your understanding on this matter? All cannot see the same line of vision. God's Standard Has Not Changed -The gospel of good news was not to be interpreted as allowing men to live in continued rebellion against God by transgressing his just and holy law. Why cannot those who claim to understand the scriptures, see that God's requirement under grace is just the same He made in Eden- perfect obedience to His law. In the judgement God will ask those who profess to be Christians, Why did you proclaim to believe in my Son, and continue to transgress My law? Who required this at your hands- to trample upon my rules of Righteousness? "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to harken than the fat of rams." The gospel of the New Testament is not the Old Testament standard lowered to meet the sinner and save him in his sins. God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Let us accept it through faith, the the Father shall find in us no sin. But those who have trampled on the holy law will have no right to claim righteousness. O that we might view the immensity of the plan of salvation as obedient children to all God's requirements, believing that we have peace with God through Jesus Christ, our atoning sacrifice. Faith Manifested by Works of Obedience _God requires at this time just what He required of the Holy pair in Eden, perfect obedience to His requirements. His law remains the same in all ages. The great standard of righteousness presented in the Old Testament is not lowered in the New. It is not the work of the Gospel to weaken the claims of God's holy law, but to bring men up where they can keep it's precepts. The faith in Christ which saves the soul is not what it is represented by many. "Believe, Believe," is their cry; "only believe in Christ and you will be saved. It is all you have to do." While true faith trusts wholly in Christ for salvation, it will lead to perfect conformity to the law of God. Faith is manifested by works. And the Apostle John declares, "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar" Disconnect the Law and the Gospel? -The enemy has ever labored to disconnect the law and the gospel. They go hand and hand. We honor both the Father and the Son when we talk about the law. The Father gave us the law, and the Son died to magnify it and make it honorable. It is impossible for us to exalt the law of Jehovah unless we take hold of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. The law of Jehovah is the tree, the gospel is the fragrant blossoms and fruit which it bears. Talk about hard-core legalism and blasphemy and absolutely no understanding of the gospel- and this lady is a prophet?! I believe John was referring to the commandments of Jesus-Believe in Him and to Love your neighbor as yourself, not the Torah-10 commandments. I can see why the Clear Word is so popular among Adventist- they take her commentary and mix it in with bible truths which makes it no longer the Word of God, but blasphemy. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12378 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cortney,what are the sources for these quotes? It's so interesting that you posted them right now; I just finished editing an article by Dale Ratzlaff for Proclamation on "progressive sanctification" and how sanctification has nothing at all to do with our being justified and saved. He points out that we cannot be married both to the law and to the Lord Jesus without committing spiritual adultery (Rom 7:1-7). I had heard but did not know a quote for that idea that Jesus died to uphold the law...there it is. I'd like to have citations... These quotes ARE anti-gospel and completely heretical. Colleen | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 737 Registered: 5-2002  |
Colleen, here is one Ellen White reference: "I beg of you, do not take the word of man that the law is abolished, for that law is as immutable as the throne of God. If the law could have been altered to meet man in his fallen condition, Christ need never have died. The cross of Christ is an unanswerable argument demonstrating the changeless character of the law. The very fact that Christ died establishes the law." {ST, May 27, 1889 par. 7} | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 268 Registered: 8-2006 |
SDA Bible Commentary Book 6, Ellen G. White's Comments Section, page 1072-1073, Romans 3:24-28. If you read on- it only gets worse  | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12380 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thanks, both of you! Colleen | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 894 Registered: 7-2008  |
What part does obedience play in the life of the believer??...just asking. Animal | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1024 Registered: 2-2008  |
Animal~ I think that obedience is evidence of Whom or what (10C's) you follow. vivian | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 896 Registered: 7-2008 |
So...If I allow the Holy Spirit to lead me in my walk with God...obedience to Him will be a fruit of my love for Him? It wont be a forced obligation or a test of my loyalty , especially during final events! Animal....the Curious One. | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 269 Registered: 8-2006 |
The problem is that Adventism is built on a false foundation- the Great Controversy theme. The argument is- could Jesus have sinned? If yes, then you could easily align yourself with this theme- if Jesus could have sinned, then He would be our example, meaning we too can live a sinless, perfect obedient existence- like EGW states again and again "Jesus is our example, he could have sinned but did not, He magnified the law- we too can be sinless, like Jesus". This also implies that God/Jesus vindicated Himself through obedience. I disagree, Jesus could not have sinned. Why? He is fully God. He is beyond perfection/righteousness on a divine level- we are not. We are not God. If Jesus could have sinned, then He would not have been a sufficient sacrifice for all "fallen humanity"- only God could have done what Christ accomplished. God cannot sin. The laws were not made for God and do not apply to God-including the sabbath. God is perfect, holy and just. Why would He/Christ ever be subject to a "written code" for guidance/correction? He is above that, above the law, they do not pertain to Him. Adventists argue Christ kept the law (10 commandments) completely- did He? He did, but not because they were the "written code"-like they imply- He did so without fault because He was God, there was no sin or blemish in Him. James 1:13- Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. Adventists will easily argue this, though. Esp. the fact that Christ kept the Sabbath, He did, not because it was "written code" to obey, He did so "all would be fulfilled/accomplished"- not based on moral obligation. The Great Controversy theme can only make sense if you believe Jesus could have sinned, this outright blasphemes IMO. | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 270 Registered: 8-2006 |
My point is, Jesus "human nature" could have been tempted-like the temptation in the Garden- but, His "divine nature and attributes" never would have allowed Him to follow through. Jesus cannot, could not sin. Jesus was tempted on a "human level" by satan, but Jesus being God had divine attributes (we do not possess as humans) that made it impossible for Him to "give into temptation and sin". EGW and Adventists do not see it this way. If Jesus can be perfect, so can we mentality. Adventists to some degree will agree Jesus had both human and divine nature, but they do understand the whole concept of Christ divinity and even argue His equality in the SDA "Godhead/trinity" concept. Perfection is part of the SDA DNA- because of White's misunderstandings of the Gospel and who Jesus Christ is. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 741 Registered: 5-2002 |
The great controversy worldview requires a sin-prone saviour. It is - by far - the single most disgusting doctrine in all of Adventism! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12384 Registered: 12-2003 |
I completely agree, Cortney and Freeatlast! The Adventist jesus is not the Jesus of Scripture. No matter how well they camouflage their terms, Adventists do not understand Jesus to be almighty God. In fact, many Adventists do not understand that Jesus actually "became sin for us". I didn't understand that... I just thought He died a horrid death as some sort of down payment for my admission to heaven. He took care of my past sins...it never dawned on me that He became sin for the world. My goodness...a Savior who became sin for all mankind could not have been spiritually or mentally/emotionally vulnerable to sin. He had to be greater than we are. He had to be God the Son...and He had to be intrinsically spiritually alive—never "reborn" but from the moment of conception alive. Colleen | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1684 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen 1 john 2:2 If He became sin for the whole world,then nobody in the world has any sin? He paid of all sin and nobody has to pay again. Doesn't that sound like universalism? Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12385 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hec, His sacrifice was sufficient for the whole world; only those who believe receive the benefit. We are saved or lost on the basis of what we do with the Sin-Bearer, not on the basis of our sin. Jesus took care of the "sin" issue. The dividing line is not between those who have sin and those who don't. The line is between those who know Jesus and are born again and those who do not believe. Colleen | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 271 Registered: 8-2006 |
Universalism is the belief that "all mankind" will be saved- no matter what they believe or understand to be true. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God. Our sin was poured into Christ at His crucifixion, His righteousness is poured into us at conversion. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2407 Registered: 5-2007  |
Great point: "the dividing line" Colleen, with your permission, I would like to use that in the commentary I am working on. Fearless Phil | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 163 Registered: 4-2005 |
Just a quick thank-you to Courtney, Colleen, et al. I've been following this thread via the mini-screen [BB] and it is a real blessing. I agree Phil, worth saving - I like to copy passages like this onto my drive at home for quick future reference. Colleen, thanks especially for post #12385 it says it for me and is a nice complement to what Cortney has been saying. Seeing Jesus' life and death in this way certainly intensifies my security, my gratitude and my devotion to Him. Paul Cross | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1770 Registered: 7-2007 |
Cortney; what Ellen White wrote there was so ridiculous! If someone were obedient, they wouldn't need Jesus' righteousness!!!!! | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 272 Registered: 8-2006 |
Asurprise- Agreed! Ellen White had absolutely no clue/understanding of the New Covenant. Which is just another reason why she cannot be trusted as a "messenger of God". | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 787 Registered: 7-2004  |
Righteousness by Faith is such a misleading phrase coming from the mouths of SDAs. Broken down into the simplest explanation, within SDAism it means that faith gives us the power that we need to become righteous followers of the law if we consistently choose to exercise that power. We have the power to become just as Christ was, through faith. Our current life will become (and must become) as righteous as Christ's life--although we will have past sins that He never had. This could not be any more opposed to the Scriptural teaching of righteousness by faith. Christ's righteousness is credited to us as if it were our own when we place our faith in Him. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12391 Registered: 12-2003 |
Phil, of course you may use it! Rick, you are completely right. I've been irritated for years by that phrase within Adventism: righteousness by faith. It's no such thing inside an Adventist framework. It's another obfuscation—the words sound good, but they are meant to deceive. It's one more layer of "guilt" to carry, because NOW the sincere Adventist believes he OUGHT to be becoming less and less sinful because he's dedicated to generating that faith that will make him able to resist sin with Christ's help. It doesn't happen...and they've no way to understand what's wrong! That is—unless they go "belly up", ask God to show them what is true, and submit to Scripture, surrendering their Adventist filter to the Lord Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Craig Registered user Username: Craig Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2011 |
It's worse than you think. Christ lived a perfect life without ever sinning. But wait. Here come the remnant of the last days that have achieved an even greater accomplishment. They have overcome and become perfect even though they had previously sinned. Which is the greater accomplishment? Who suffered more? Who had to succeed through greater trial. According to this line of thinking Jesus had it easier because he was never burdened by guilt. Satan found nothing in him. But the remnant not only had to attain sinlessnss, but they also had to do it with Satan's accusations about their past sinfulness. Which would take greater faith? If this is not the spirit of Antichrist, I don't know what. No wonder Adventists view heaven as a deserved reward. I remember as a student at Walla Walla College in the early 70s. The married student's club would have occasional "Bible studies" which usually consisted of a Bible text and lots of EGW quotes. The topic was about Heaven and its rewards. Only one person mentioned being with Christ as what they looked forward to. Most had some specific "thing" they wanted. One student even said that her first words when getting there would be "Where's my lion?" So it's not about our love for our treasure--the Father and Son--it's about OUR achievement and reward. I will NEVER deserve heaven--EVER! It is solely by the matchless grace of God in Jesus that I will be there. I will never sing about MY overcoming sin or MY attaining perfection or MY faith, or anything of MINE. I don't deserve the favor of God, but I accept it. I have done NOTHING to deserve or to retain it. It is all a work of God, and I will sing His praises and joyfully glorify Him throughout eternity. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12426 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great post, Craig. I remember truly being unable to "feel" any excitement about seeing Jesus. Heaven was about not dying but having endless intellectual and experiential "new horizons". My goodness! Heaven was so...so...physical to say nothing of missing the point about knowing the Lord Jesus. Colleen |
