| Author | Message | ||
| Jody Registered user Username: Jody Post Number: 109 Registered: 7-2007 |
I was wondering if some one could help me. In the old testameant several places God states that he will visit the iniiquity of the fathers to the third and fourth generation. ( For example see Exodus 20:5,34:7and Numbers 14:18) I thought that somewhere,maybe in the New Testament that God later declared that each man would be accountable for his own doing and not held accountable for the sins of the fathers. I was sure i had read something like that before but cant seem to find it,anyone have any ideas? | ||
| Mkfound Registered user Username: Mkfound Post Number: 59 Registered: 1-2011 |
Jer 31:27 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and the seed of beast. Jer 31:28 And it shall come to pass that as I have watched over them to pluck up and break down, to overthrow, destroy, and bring harm, so I will watch over them to build and to plant, declares the LORD. Jer 31:29 In those days they shall no longer say: "'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.' Jer 31:30 But everyone shall die for his own sin. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, Jer 31:32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. | ||
| Jody Registered user Username: Jody Post Number: 110 Registered: 7-2007 |
This was prob what i was lookin for,didnt think i would get an answer that fast....... thanks! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1785 Registered: 7-2007 |
Here's another: "What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge'? As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die." Ezekiel 18:2-4 The whole chapter is God talking to Israel. I thought verses 19 & 20 were interesting.... "Yet you say, 'Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?' When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 400 Registered: 7-2010 |
Is this what you're looking for in the New Testament? For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. (Romans 14:11-12) Paul doesn't mention anyone else's sin, only our own. | ||
| Jody Registered user Username: Jody Post Number: 111 Registered: 7-2007 |
I think all these verses in Jeremiah and Ezekiel were what i was thinkin of.My Sda Grandmother seemed to think that the Bible stated that things could happen to us (ie,people could be diagnosed with sum kind of disease)because of our lineage and that these things were to happen to the third and fourth generation.She was adamant that this is what the bible says.When i disagreed with her,and said that it was prob old testament,she remarked that the old was just as impt as the new (sound familiar??)I said to her that i think that changed and that i had read it somewhere,at the time i wasnt sure I just thought i had read something along those lines before.All of the above verses should be more then adequate proof. I would say that the scenario that she was talkin about was more old testament economy.This may be ground breaking for her to see this perhaps it will open a door or shed some light for her to see that the same thing or at least a similar thing has happened in regards to the sabbath.Pray that the Holy Spirit will guide her to truth and remove the veil. Jody | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1686 Registered: 3-2009 |
How about genetics? Doesn't that goes from generation to generation? Hec | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 807 Registered: 7-2004  |
Does a sin change our genetics? | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1687 Registered: 3-2009 |
Do our genetics influence what we do? (Tendency to alcohol, certain diseases, possibly certain attractions? It's not the sin influencing the genetics, (the parents paying for their children sins,) but the genetics influencing the sins (the children paying for the parent's sins.) Hec | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 808 Registered: 7-2004 |
Still doesn't make sense. In order for the kids to be paying for their parents sins through genetics, the genetic code would have to be altered by the sins. My father and I may both be more likely to be alcoholics due to our shared genetics, but if my father never drank a single drop the same genetics would still be passed on to me. Our genetics are established at inception, they don't change based on what we do and what we avoid in our lives. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7172 Registered: 9-2006  |
Well, here's another possible meaning. When a people become disobedient as Ellen Whites crew did in spite of the warnings of the Methodist church they were attending at the time, and insisted on pursuing date setting to the point where they had to be kicked out of the church, then stubbornly went on to start what ended up as the Seventh Day Adventist Church, a church that is steeped in blindness and heresy. Who is suffering now, because of the sin of disobedience of their own fore fathers? Now you may say, “No, I’m not suffering because of my father.” Well I ain’t heard anybody coming out of Adventism bewildered and thinking it a pleasure cruise. I have heard many formers say they were third and fourth generation Adventists. Did you ask to be born into an Adventist family? Did your father or mother ask to be born into an Adventist family? Whose original sin of clinging to heresy instead of clinging to the true word of God was it? You individually have to own it, but you can never say you started it, nor, being born into it, chose it. Now, here’s what I’m saying, where the Bible says, ‘for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Does this mean that he himself will bring the iniquity? Look at it this way, the iniquity is brought on themselves and their children because God is a jealous God, he won’t stand for the words of Jesus to be ignored, he told the disciples, “This is my son, listen to him!” God, by the Holy Spirit probably tried to deal with Ellen White, or at least through his ministers, because they at first pleaded with her to let go the date setting before they finally kicked her out in order to preserve the Gospel in their church. So God went ahead and let White and her bunch have her way. He didn’t have to actually visit the iniquity on them, they visited it on themselves and their children in which you are. Evangelical or protestant churches hardly ever ex-communicate anyone, and certainly not without praying with them, or for them, and instructing them, so think of the corner that old time Methodist church was backed into. Now the Methodist church today has been diluted, but the churches of years past were of great faith, in fact that is their thing, faith. We know now that children raised in broken homes many times suffer in their lives, not to mention sexual abuse and so fourth. Not saying this is exactly right, just saying its something to think about. It is enough to make me want to get Gods message when I read the word, that’s fer sure. River | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2415 Registered: 5-2007  |
Well River you make a good point since I was a fourth generation Adventist. Leaving sure wasn't the most fun thing I ever did. But then, at the time, I fully intended to be nothing more than the best possible first-class sinner that I could figure out to be. Ironically now that I thing think about it, Jan and I were married in the Methodist Church. Well, I never joined so I never rebelled against them by not coming back. And, to think I was still on the membership rolls of the Napa Seventh-day Adventist Church down the street from them. Well, as the rest of the story goes, the Lord had other ideas in mind which included worshiping with very much alive Holy Spirit led Christians who were meeting in the middle of a cemetery. Fearless Phil | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1689 Registered: 3-2009 |
River, If this were FB, I'd press the "like" button. Hec | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1028 Registered: 2-2008  |
Just some observations: 1) This verse qualifies that God will visit the iniquities of those that hate Him. 2) This word from God comes just after the commandment regarding idolatry. (Ex. 34:7 is a repeat of the same commandment) 3) In Numbers 14, the children of Israel had just been told about the abundancy in the land of Canaan and also about how big and strong the men were. The children of Israel didn't believe that God would or could conquer the people of that land for them. God asks Moses (Num. 14:11)"long will they not believe in Me..." and He considers wiping out the whole nation of Israel. So I think that in context, "visiting the iniquities..." has to do with unbelievers. Those who don't believe that God can deliver them and who hate God. I don't believe that "visiting the iniquities..." has to do with believers. Now regarding Ex. 34:7, I have a question:
On the commentary that I have from Gill (regarding the verse above) that is included with e-sword, He commented this on "iniquity, transgression and sin;"
Has anyone else heard of this idea that Jews distinguish the difference between "iniquities, transgression and sin"? Would Paul, Peter, and James have carried over these definitions in their writings in the New Testament? vivian | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1029 Registered: 2-2008 |
p.s. one more clarification... those who believe that Christ's sacrifice covers their sins and they have been delivered would not have "iniquities" counted against them... so how could God "visit them"? Of course, for an adventist who has to keep the 10C's in order to have their sins blotted out through the investigative judgment... they haven't believed that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for their salvation. They don't believe that through Christ alone, they have deliverance... that's why River's comment above is true. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2784 Registered: 8-2004  |
Christianity Today published an article recently called Sin in the Double Helix. I found it worth reading and pondering. I think it has been well established that we are born with tendencies to excell in some areas and do poorly in others. I don't think this maps our or life path or makes us HAVE to give in to our weaknesses or to persue the fields are strenghths are in, but it does affect us. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2420 Registered: 5-2007 |
One thing I have found and is no doubt true of all parents is that I have behavioral traits that I have been able to identify as coming from my parents and grandparents, both things that can be said to be bad and some that are considered to be good. Oh yes, my three kids display characteristics that obviously come from both my wife and myself. What a surprise…not! While genetics might have something to do with this, I am very sure it goes way beyond our inherited ‘gene pool’. Fearless Phil | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 809 Registered: 7-2004 |
My challenge isn't about our inherited tendency towards sin in general and even specific sins. My point is, that in order for my sins to be genetically passed to my children, these sins would have to be genetically programmer into me from conception. If I rob a bank, that act doesn't suddenly change my genetic code. In order for our specific sins to be passed on to our children through genetics, this is what would have to occur. And if I robbed the bank afterbthey were conceived, it would be impossible for this act to be passed down genetically even if it could change our genetic code. Genetics play a role in who we are and how we act, but our genetics are not modified by how we act. Perhaps this mindset about changing genetics through our actions is unwittingly passed down through years of EGW indoctrination in things like a mother's corset wearing affecting the body shape of her yet to be born daughters. Genetics doesn't work this way. Learning, on the other hand, does work this way. My kids do what they see me doing. How many times have you thought to yourself mid-statement that you are saying something that sounds just like your parent? | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1791 Registered: 7-2007 |
I've heard that when people take blood oaths, such as in the Mormon and Masonic religions, the demonic results of that can be passed on to their children, unless the (saved) children ask God to break it, to sever the line to themselves - something like that.... | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1792 Registered: 7-2007 |
Also, Adam sinned and his sinful nature was passed down to us. | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1031 Registered: 2-2008 |
Regarding the word "visiting" in the verses listed in Exodus and Leviticus. I checked on e-sword to find the meaning and also how this word was used in other verses. The word "visit" (H6485) means "to visit (with friendly or hostile intent); by analogy to oversee, muster, charge, care for, miss, deposit, etc." I checked to see how this word was used in other verses in the OT. Here are some examples: 1)Gen 21:1 Then the LORD took note(H6485) of Sarah as He had said, and the LORD did for Sarah as He had promised. 2)Gen 39:4So Joseph found favor in his sight and became his personal servant; and he made him overseer(H6485) over his house, and all that he owned he put in his charge. 3) Exo 4:31 So the people believed; and when they heard that the LORD was concerned(H6485) about the sons of Israel and that He had seen their affliction, then they bowed low and worshiped. 4) 1Sa 2:21 The LORD visited(H6485) Hannah; and she conceived and gave birth to three sons and two daughters. And the boy Samuel grew before the LORD. 5)There is a lot of references to "numbering" people. Such as in Numbers when they are counting the people or "numbering" the prophets of Baal. So I don't think that "visiting" means that the iniquities of the father is passed on to kids. It's a reference to how God takes notice, oversees, counts the iniquities of the children even to the 3rd or 4th generation. I still believe that this whole reference of "visiting the iniquities" is in reference to people who don't believe in God and who hate Him. vivian | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1690 Registered: 3-2009 |
Vivian says: For what purpose would God "takes notice, oversees, counts the iniquities? Hec | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1032 Registered: 2-2008 |
Hec, ... for the great white throne judgment. In Revelation 20, John writes,
God oversees over all of our lives. I believe that as He oversees my life, He is refining me for His purpose, His glory. For the unbeliever, John has written that they will be judged according to their deeds at the great white throne judgment. As an adventist, I believed that these verses meant that my kids would suffer from the sins of my life. I see now that "visiting the iniquities" has nothing to do with passing down my sins to my kids rather it means that God is sovereign and He oversees everyone's life... believer or unbeliever. As a believer, our sins don't count against us because of what Christ has done for us. What is your take on these verses? vivian | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1693 Registered: 3-2009 |
My take? Like Animal, very simple. I know that the theologians will find all kinds of explanations, but like Animal says, "keep it simple." When you quoted Exodus 20, you stopped at verse five, but I think that verse six is very important for understanding this. Both verses say: "I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments." Notice that verse five is talking about, like you said, those who hate God. Verse six however is talking about those who love God. I we do a little math we find that if you take a person and count four generations we will end up with: First generation (father and mother = 2 second generation (children, big family = 10 third generation (another big family 10 each = 100 four generation (keep the big family 10 each = 1000 Total = 1112. Verse six says that He shows lovingkindnes to thousands. That could be interpreted in two ways. (1) since verse five is talking about generations, the thousands of verse six could be talking about generations too. However, (2)even if we take it just as thousands, the comparison is that God visits the iniquity on around a thousand while he shows lonvingkindness to thousands. Just a simple comparison to say in another way that God is love. Of course remember that I started saying that I'm a simple person. Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12423 Registered: 12-2003  |
Good point, Hec. I think, also, that when we have unhealed wounds (I'm thinking, for example, of the consequences of abuse to children); they grow up deeply wounded, and out of that brokenness, they often unknowingly or without clarity sin against others because that defensive or aggressive or otherwise abusive behavior is almost unconscious. Those sins against others that result from our own brokenness from the sins done against us damage others. None of this means that the next generation is judged for our sin; it does mean that the next generation will suffer from the results of our sins done against them... When we are born again we become able to know our brokenness and submit it to God and begin to act in truth and reality, surrendering our almost habitual responses and allowing His truth to instruct us in our behavior. Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1033 Registered: 2-2008 |
Beautiful Hec!! I love what the Spirit has shown you through numbers in these verses. Sorry I haven't replied sooner... we're dealing with the remains of a flooded basement (ripping out carpet, pad, dry wall, insulation, etc.). I'm sure one of my ancesters must have gone swimming on the Sabbath and that's why our basement flooded! ha! Absolutely, God's main attribute is love. Out of His love He watches over all of us, good and evil. Just because my basement flooded doesn't mean an ancestor sinned and I'm now paying for it. I see it as an event that God has allowed to happen in our lives to refine our trust in Him and to build our faith. To me, God visiting the iniquities speaks of His sovereignty. His watch over every detail of this world. vivian |
