| Author | Message | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 277 Registered: 7-2010  |
In a discussion with a SDA friend of mine they asked me the question (paraphrased): "Does the Bible say that grieving the Holy Spirit is considered committing the unpardonable sin, or is that something Ellen White said?" Now, I really don't know what EGW said on this subject, but the mention of "grieving the Holy Spirit" immediately brought to my mind Ephesians 4:30 which talks about the Holy Spirit being the seal. Logically speaking, if you outright reject the Holy Spirit then you are rejecting being sealed.. so in an eschatological sense you would have the mark of the beast and be lost (you have essentially rejected Jesus and His promise). The verse does not however call this "unpardonable" and in fact contextually Paul is encouraging them to stop rejecting the Holy Spirit (it wasn't hopeless), so clearly this can not be considered an "unpardonable sin", so I'm not really sure where my friend got that part of the question. I've previously been familiar with a passage in Mat 12:30-31 which some call the "unpardonable sin" (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). I have never really studied the subject since leaving SDAism though. Does anyone have any thoughts on this subject? Michael | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1881 Registered: 6-2006  |
I've heard that growing up (I'm a never-been), and it looks as though that's what Matt:12 says/means, so I doubt it came from EGW. I don't see where one would automatically connect the mark of the beast from that though ~ maybe that came from EGW? Seems like a logical conclusion, but you would need scripture to actually state "you will have the mark of the beast if you grieve the Holy Spirit". Since some Bible Scholars are pointing to Nero as the beast, I would hesitate to use that theory.  Leigh Anne In my opinion, an unpardonable sin would be to discourage someone from worshipping God any day, time, or situation. Too bad I can't magically add that to the Bible! | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 724 Registered: 5-2002  |
I was expressly warned by an Adventist Bible Teacher who also happens to be my father that I committed the unpardonable sin when I rejected Ellen White as a false prophet. In calling the work of the Holy Spirit (Ellen White's writings - aka the Spirit of Prophecy) the work of Satan, I grieved the Holy Spirit and sealed my eternal doom. I am so glad my Heavenly Father cleared that one up for me! | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 278 Registered: 7-2010 |
Oh, so there are SDAs who believe that even questioning the integrity of Ellen White is the unpardonable sin? Wow... I was not aware of that! I can see how the SDA doctrines can reach that conclusion, but this is the first time I have ever actually heard it. Michael | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3619 Registered: 10-2004  |
Michael, Usually Adventists will say "grieve away the Holy Spirit" (adding the word--and concept of--"away" to that Biblical phrase). This addition comes from, you guessed it, Ellen G. White! But the verse actually says:
This verse itself tells us that we are not able to "grieve away" the Holy Spirit or reject Him and His sealing once we are sealed (saved). It says that we have been sealed "unto the day of redemption." We cannot be "unsealed." The seal of the Holy Spirit cannot be "broken." We are sealed all the way up to the day of redemption and can't "lose" that seal/salvation. Therefore, Christians cannot commit the unpardonable sin or "reject" the Holy Spirt. "Grieving" the Holy Spirit is something that the Ephesians had been doing, but it is not the unpardonable sin and does not mean that they were rejecting Him. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on March 08, 2011) | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 279 Registered: 7-2010 |
Jeremy, I just checked the original wording my friend used, and you are correct... the word "away" was included in my friend's question. My brain automatically corrected it when I wrote my paraphrased version of the question in the OP. The info on the addition of that one little word is very interesting. Michael (Message edited by MichaelMiller on March 08, 2011) | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 279 Registered: 5-2009 |
Does Hebrews 10:26-31 fit into this discussion in any way? ++++++++++++++++ Hebrews 10:26-31 (English Standard Version) 26For(A) if we go on sinning deliberately(B) after receiving the knowledge of the truth,(C) there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27(D) but a fearful expectation of judgment, and(E) a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28(F) Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy(G) on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one(H) who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned(I) the blood of the covenant(J) by which he was sanctified, and has(K) outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said,(L) "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again,(M) "The Lord will judge his people." 31(N) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. ++++++++++++ The alphabet letters are cross references & the K is to Matt 12:31-32 The original NLT version in v 29 reads 'Such people have insulted and enraged the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to his people.' That's pretty strong emotion there. ~J9 | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 280 Registered: 7-2010 |
It looks like the Hebrews 10 reference is a comparison of those who rejected the law in the OC with those who reject Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the NC. Michael (Message edited by MichaelMiller on March 08, 2011) | ||
| Natofborg Registered user Username: Natofborg Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2011 |
Okay, this is all news to me. I was taught that the "Unpardonable sin" is rejecting God and the only reason that it is unpardonable is becuase you have rejected God to a point where you refuse to give God a chance to come into your heart. | ||
| Mkfound Registered user Username: Mkfound Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2011 |
I had also been told by an Adventist that I had committed the unpardonable sin for rejecting the 'spirit of prophecy'. Then, when they realized I would never come back (to Adventism) they corrected themselves, and said if you really repent, you just might be accepted. So much for that! About grieving the Holy Spirit however... if we take a look at the word grieving, it conveys utter sadness in emotion. And to me, it shows how much the Holy Spirit cares about us, how much He loves us, that he is grieved when we do not listen to His voice. To me the 'grieving Holy Spirit' painted a picture of love, not of force. Perhaps this is similar to how Jesus told the Jews before his death, how he wanted to be like a hen, which would gather the chicks under her wings--but "they would not". The effect of comforting, love and protection is seen there. And Jesus comments, "But they would not". So the loving, gathering, caring, protecting was God's desire, but the little 'chicks' wanted to run away, as probably each once of us has done. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 273 Registered: 2-2010 |
I was taught that grieving the Holy spirit is the unpardonable sin. Scripture does not refer to grieving the spirit as the unpardonable sin at all. It just says not to do it. The unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I see this as attributing to God the works of Satan, and attributing to Satan the works of God. Colleen pointed out to me once that as soon as the Pharisees accused Jesus of having a demon, Jesus began teaching in parables so that only those with eyes to see and ears to hear would understand. They had blasphemed the Holy SPirit. The passage in Ephesians is talking about Christian Living. Paul talks about the gentiles who are not Christians and how they have lost all sensativity. He is teaching Christians how to respond to the sensativity given to us as God's children in the Holy Spirit. When I was a child it grieved my mom to watch me get into trouble. As an adult, I am totally capable of causing my husband grief when I am a bit moody . These are the people in my life who are committed to being in my life. They are the ones who have to put up with me no matter how I behave. When I show no regard for them and live according to my own desires and whims they are grieved. I see it the same way with the Holy Spirit. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit. He is not going ANYWHERE. God is a covenant keeper, and Ephesians says the Holy Spirit is the seal GUARENTEEING my inheritance in the saints. He is committed to me and He has to put up with me, no matter how I behave. I believe the passage on grieving the Holy Spirit is about encouraging us to be respectful and responsive to the Holy Spirit who lives within us and is privy to every thought and whim we have. We are to honor God and not grieve Him with our selfish lifestyles, but live to bring Him glory. Thats just how I see it now. Unpardonable Sin: "And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Matt. 12:31-32 Grieving the Holy Spirit (in context) : "So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed. That, however, is not the way of life you learned when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. " Ephesians 4:17-32 | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 386 Registered: 7-2010 |
The problem comes in when we add or subtract a word from Scripture. It can take on a whole new meaning then. For example, John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. KJV John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God. NWT The NWT is the New World Translation used by the JW's, and as you can see the minimal adding of the letter/word "a" changes the whole context of the sentence. Which so does grieve "away" the Holy Spirit. It changes the text to say what we may want it to say, so we can prove someone else is wrong in their doctrine. When in fact we are the ones that are wrong. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1657 Registered: 3-2009 |
"And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Matt. 12:31-32 If the Three are one and the One is three, when I speak against the Holy Spirit, am I not speaking against the Son? And when I'm speaking against the Son, am I not speaking against the HS? So how can I speak against the son and be forgiven, but speak against the HS and not be forgiven? Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12336 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hec, the point of Jesus' comment in Matthew 12:31-32 is the context where the Pharisees accused Him of having a demon when he cast out a demon, as Nikki mentioned above. And yes, the three are one, and speaking against any is speaking against them all. But the point of Jesus' words about blasphemy against the Spirit is that the Pharisees attributed the Holy Spirit's power to Satan. Wayne Grudem has a really succinct paragraph in which he summarizes this unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Spirit:
In other words, this sin can't be committed by accident, casually, or with incomplete understanding. Those Pharisees looked right at Jesus as He systematically fulfilled all the prophesied signs the Messiah would perform. They knew that His acts were acts that only God could do. They KNEW who He was...but they refused to believe. Then, as a crowning insult of blasphemy, they deliberately refused to believe and intentionally attributed what they knew to be the power of God—to Satan. This sort of sin cannot be forgiven because it is informed, deliberate, and persistent. Those Pharisees did not want to believe, and they wanted to destroy the One who was the Light shining the illumination of accountability on their darkness. Colleen | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 882 Registered: 7-2008  |
IMO....LIVING WITHOUT POPCORN AND ROOTBEER is an unpardonable sin as well. ...Animal...what do you think? | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 283 Registered: 7-2010 |
Animal, Only if someone calls rootbeer an "evil spirit". Michael | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 284 Registered: 7-2010 |
Colleen, I was also getting the impression that this had to be a deliberate attack. It amazes me the amount of pride/arrogance the Pharisees had. If Mat 12 is indeed describing a deliberate and intentional attack, then there is a significant implication: The Pharisees were experts on law keeping, but it did absolutely nothing for purifying their hearts. In this case they had become so prideful/arrogant that they knowingly tried to stop others from looking toward Jesus and made themselves the focus instead. The Pharisees believed they didn't need Jesus because they were good enough to earn heaven on their own. This is essentially the same as the original sin... "you shall be like God". This is the logical conclusion of work-righteousness though... "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Galatians 2:21). Michael | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12349 Registered: 12-2003 |
I completely agree, Michael. Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 1020 Registered: 2-2008  |
great point Michael!! ... they "knowingly" tried to stop others from coming to Jesus because He was a threat to their way of life and who they were. I can't remember who wrote this (either David Jeremiah or Andy Stanley), but he said that grace was inviting to the unrighteous and a threat to the self-righteous. vivian | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1883 Registered: 6-2006 |
"grace was inviting to the unrighteous and a threat to the self-righteous." WOW! Viv, I LOVE that! Leigh Anne | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 727 Registered: 5-2002 |
Salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone is a direct threat to the business model of those who make their living off the Law. |
