| Author | Message | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 96 Registered: 8-2010  |
Alison1, I'm late in posting so the majority has already been said but I'll just share something. The last "church" my family attended was a church plant and was setup as "progressive". They discussed setting up the church based on a demographics study to target young families, to be "seeker friendly", we were not to use the traditional terms of the Adventist idiom. The group before I left grew to ~100 families and was renting from an Evangelical Church. During my exodus my pastor told me he did not believe in those specific doctrines already mentioned and asked whether or not I noticed he did not preach them from the pulpit, and he also pointed out there was only one adult sabbath school class that used a Quarterly. He was also redoing the materials used in the Revelation Seminars to be more progressive. However that being said the chairs contained the mixed masses but they were all Adventists. You could very well have Christians in the pews but you will also have the Traditional Adventist that will teach the IJ, Veneration of EGW, annihilationism, and all will hold to Jewish Sabbath Observance--maybe not all viewing it as mandatory. So what would happen if you bring a guest to church, do you know which Gospel they will be exposed to? A church is dependent on the fellowship of its believers you can't avoid being indoctrinated. If Scripture is correct--and it is--the flesh will seek to embrace the Legalistic side of "have to DO" and ignore Grace and "what was DONE". To me that is playing Russian Roulette with all chambers loaded. During the fAF weekend I went down to visit a friend in the Orange County Area of CA that attends a progressive church. What I understand is the Spirit in the church is one of Apathy because no one really wants to use Scripture as it is instructed 2 Tim 3:16 when it might convict. My impression is that my friend is concerned because the church lacks fruit. My question is if progressive means promoting change moving towards something better--why not progress to the Gospel itself. Don't be content with Adventist lite where you aim at nothing and you will hit it every time. In contrast Christianity says aim for the empty Cross. | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 52 Registered: 10-2010 |
Ok, my next thought is this. When I was Adventist up in CT and here in Daytona Beach, FL both pastors that I had were both very Christ-centered. What I mean is that most of the sermons that they gave were very Christ-centered. Maybe I was just very fortunate. But to me it seemed that these two churches were becoming more gospel and christ-centered. Both of them used the Bible more than EGW writings. Alot more discussion about Jesus, the bible and the gospel. Maybe they were starting to experience Christ. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3589 Registered: 10-2004  |
But does it matter that they are "Christ-centered" if they are centered on a false christ? The same could be said of Ellen White's books, such as The Desire of Ages. It is a very "Christ-centered" book, but it teaches a false jesus throughout. Mormonism can also be very "Christ-centered." For example, check out this interesting LDS Sunday School curriculum: http://lds.org/manual/new-testament-gospel-doctrine-teachers-manual?lang=eng But again, does it matter if they are centered on a false christ? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 22, 2011) | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 97 Registered: 8-2010 |
Alison1, That was the same thought I had when I was leaving, perhaps there is a change. My pastor was even telling me there about this huge wave of change that will come up form the pastoral ranks and force the leadership to change. My response back to him was oh you mean like there was suppose to be in 50's the 80's and now in the 2000's? If they disagree with the teachings they should outright renounce them and drop the tie to Adventisim. This is for the sake of both the Institution and of Christians seeking a bible based Church. To smooth over the doctrines or pretend they don't exist makes them hypocrites. I know that sounds harsh, but in what other organization would that behavior be tolerated? | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 730 Registered: 5-2009 |
Excellent post, Wiredog!! Amen and Amen! Why are they so scared to go to the top GC guys and tell them they really don't believe all the fundamental doctrines? All the "grace-teaching pastors" could go enmasse. (Well, we all know exactly what would happen.) This is one reason that the FAF weekend asked SDAs to "choose whom they will serve"...it gets kinda uncomfortable sitting on the fence after awhile. You can't progress either towards SDAism OR the gospel if you keep one foot on each side of the fence. You just remain stuck on your tiptoes. | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2010 |
Jeremy, Your attempt in comparing Mormonism to Seventh-day Adventist, in my mind, is questionable. I understand where you are coming from but the Mormons are far less Christian than the Seventh-day Adventists by a long shot. Most protestant churches are much more accepting and tolerant of the SDAs than the Mormons. Believe me, I've gotten an earful from different people. | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 347 Registered: 5-2009  |
Alison, have you read the last 2 issues of Proclamation? The Walter Martin article and the 2 Talbot articles are essential reading if you want to understand why today, most Christians accept Adventists without a second thought. I highly recommend that you read the history, the lies and cover-ups and the manipulation that went on in order for SDAs to be accepted into the mainstream. [here's the gist: SDAs were viewed JUST like the Mormons until in the 50s they took up an effort to clean up their image and revise their language to sound more evangelical. they never changed the doctrines. so now you have an adventism that is deceptive on first glance (looking and acting very Christian, saying all of the right things but meaning something else entirely) and seemingly benign, just maybe a little quirky. but they preach a false gospel. period.] Here are the direct links: Did Adventists Lie to Walter Martin? http://lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2010/3/waltermartin.html Talbot article Part 1 http://lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2010/3/notevangelical.html Talbot article part 2: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2010/4/notevangelical2.html I would love to hear your reaction to this information. There's lots more to read but this is a great start. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3591 Registered: 10-2004 |
In what specific ways? Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12273 Registered: 12-2003  |
Exactly, Cloudwatcher and Jeremy. There is not one doctrine of the Christian faith which Adventism has not distorted. They are just more deceptive than the other "Christian cults". When an Adventist pastor is "Christ-centered", he's not teaching the same Jesus the Bible reveals. The Adventist Jesus is fallible, ceased to exist while he was dead, didn't know if he would rise from death, and inherited sinful "propensities" from Mary. Alison, read the articles at the links in Cloudwatcher's post above! Colleen | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 732 Registered: 5-2009 |
I used to think so, too, Alison, but the more I've studied, the more shocked I've become. Mormons are just more upfront with their beliefs and don't claim to be evangelical Christians. | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 54 Registered: 10-2010 |
I do have these issues of Proclamation and I will pull them off the shelf and re-read them again. And I'll get back to everyone and share my thoughts with you. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 706 Registered: 5-2002 |
"Progressive Adventism" is like saying "New-and-improved Conestoga Wagon". No thanks I already have a Ferrari (the Gospel) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12281 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great analogy, Freeatlast! Colleen | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1705 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jeremy; the Mormons make less pretense at being "Christian." They are very obvious to people who know the Bible even a little bit, that they don't believe the Bible. Adventistism on the other hand, is far more subtle. The same effect is achieved though - to keep people from completely accepting Jesus sacrifice. When I was an Adventist, I couldn't "put my weight down" on Ephesians 2:8,9 where it tells believers "for by grace you have been saved," because Ellen White said that no one should say they are saved. Since I couldn't COMPLETELY accept Jesus as my Savior, I might as well have been a Hindu - because I was completely lost. Oh, I talked the talk like most Adventists do. "Salvation is a free gift," while at the same time wondering if I had repented of everything and only "hoping" that I was saved. So the SDA church has far more of a Christian APPEARANCE than Mormonism. But the members are just as lost if they were like me. | ||
| Alison1 Registered user Username: Alison1 Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2010 |
Asuprise, you are so right about the Mormons. They don't a big claim about being "Christian". I know. I was a Mormon for 10 years before I was introduced to the Seventh-day Adventists. I'm just grateful that the Adventists introduced me to Jesus and the Bible. But it was after that that God took over and started to guide me more into His Word. God had lead me to a couple who believe in Righteousness by Faith and being Justified by faith. They really were wonderful in really teaching me the Bible. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3596 Registered: 10-2004 |
In recent decades, the Mormons, much like the Adventists, have become very active in promoting themselves as "Christian." Their website for the public, mormon.org, says the following when you click on "FAQ":
And their second FAQ says:
Here are a couple of other FAQs on their site:
Sounds just like Adventism. Jeremy | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1711 Registered: 7-2007 |
I have a half-sister who's Mormon. When she and my half-brothers were little, I secretly taught them the Adventist religion, so they were kind of secretly Adventist. (I was Adventist then.) Our dad was raising them to be nothing. Now as adults, even my two half-brothers seem to lack that Christian glow in their countenances, though I've told all three (or I should say six, because of my other brother and sisters too), how I was saved out of the Adventist church and I've also tried to tell them the gospel. (My Mormon half-sister is married with two little ones now.) When it comes to belief about salvation, Mormons and Adventists have something in common. In the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23, in the second half of the "verse," Joseph Smith wrote: "...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." I quoted that to an Adventist lady whom I was trying to witness to and she got a very strange look on her face. I asked her why, and she said that that was the way her mother had taught her about salvation when she was growing up. Yes, that does sound very Adventist. They have a blasphemous little jingle that goes something like: "As man is, so God was. As God is, so man may become." | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 734 Registered: 5-2009 |
Alison, just curious...when you became adventist, did they teach you that their prophet teaches that Jesus is Michael the archangel? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12286 Registered: 12-2003 |
It sounds Adventist to me--the only tiny difference is that the Mormon statements are slightly more clear in their statements of heresy. Functionally, though, they are the same. Adventists are taught the same ideas. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3598 Registered: 10-2004 |
"...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." That sounds identical to the SDA mantra of: "If we do our best, God will do the rest." (Of course Ellen White taught that absolute sinless perfection is necessary to be saved!) Jeremy |
