| Author | Message | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 368 Registered: 5-2009  |
Today I read a statement that has stuck with me: "Ideas have consequences." It made me think about the consequences of false ideas like the Great Controversy (see previous thread). For the benefit of the lurkers, I wanted to share this. I found this handout in our stacks of heresy. ;) It's a handout that my former SDA pastor-husband had that he got from when he would help his dad (current SDA pastor) with evangelistic meetings. And like most things Adventist, they turn a true statement from the Bible into a false idea because of the implications attached. Anyone want to take these on, one by one? Let's help shred false ideas that have devastating consequences. *** THIRTEEN FACTS ABOUT SUNDAY EVERY CHRISTIAN SHOULD KNOW 1. The Bible nowhere calls Sunday a holy day or a day of worship. 2. Jesus NEVER KEPT IT. He kept the Sabbath. Luke 4:16, 31. 3. The Apostles kept the Sabbath, not Sunday. Acts 18:4, 13:14, 42-44. 4. The Sabbath is called the Lord’s Day, not Sunday. Mark 2:28; Exodus 20:9 5. Sunday was first called the Lord’s Day by a lawyer named Turtulian, not Jesus. 6. Sunday was made a day of worship by a heathen, Constantine on March 7, A.D. 321. 7. Sunday is named after the sun in the sky, not the Son of God. 8. God has promised a blessing on those who keep the Sabbath. Isaiah 56:2 9. The Sabbath is the only day blessed by God. Genesis 2:2, 3. The other days, including Sunday, are called working days. Ezekiel 46:1. 10. This side of the cross, the Sabbath commandment was kept! Luke 23:56 11. Where, anywhere in the Bible is anyone commanded to keep Sunday? 12. If Jesus had given another day, He would have spoken of it. Hebrews 4:8 13. Since the Bible makes no mention of Sunday as a holy day, it must be a man-made institution. This being true, it faces destruction. Matthew 15:13. (Message edited by cloudwatcher on March 01, 2011) | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 257 Registered: 7-2010  |
Off the top of my head... 1. Sure... fine... but why? 2. As a Jew living during the time of the old covenant law he kept the Sabbath. I have no problem with that. 3. Where does it say they "kept" the Sabbath? Acts says Paul went to the synagogue to reason with them. He did so because he could find them gathered all in one place, not because he was "keeping" any day! If a SDA was given the opportunity to make a case to convert people to Adventism in a "Sunday church" on Sunday, and the SDA did so, would that make him/her a "Sunday keeper"? 4. I fail to see how the provided scripture references prove the point being made. 5. Doesn't this discredit the role of Constantine in #6 then? 6. People were meeting on Sunday long before Constantine was even born (see previous). 7. Saturday is named after the planet Saturn which was named after a pagan god... what of it? 8. And which covenant does this pertain to? Do you keep the Sabbath without desecrating it? Really (describe using scripture each requirement and how you keep them)? 9. Indeed, the fourth commandment did memorialize the seventh day of creation (as it also memorialized the Exodus from Egypt) for a particular group of people for a specific length of time, but God's rest didn't end on that seventh day (see Hebrews 3 & 4). The weekly Sabbath leads us to a full understanding of the permanent rest available in Christ. Ezekiel is describing a part of the old covenant system which Jesus fulfilled. 10. Nice try... A) Jesus had not risen yet, and B) Why would they do otherwise until they fully understood what had taken place? 11. Nowhere... this is a red herring argument. We don't "keep" Sunday. 12. You might want to study Hebrews 3 & 4 in full context because it is proving that "today" (every day) is our Sabbath rest in Jesus. He didn't give us another day; He gave us permanent rest from obtaining salvation through our own work. 13. Once again, Sunday isn't a "holy day". All days are alike (Romans 14, Colossians 2) Michael | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 712 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well, Michael, one thing is clear... You haven't given this much thought or Scriptural study but are simply bitter because you were mistreated by a few non-representative Adventists and just wanted to find any excuse you could to go out and live in sin (tongue in cheek). | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 156 Registered: 4-2005 |
Cloudwatcher, Thanks for the "list" - I couldn't help responding to this. This is especially amazing when I think that in the "bad old days" I likely handed out and promoted this kind of stuff. What a change when the fog clears. Michaelmiller, re: point #12 A very helpful suggestion. I agree, straightening out Hebrews would clear up a lot here... Comments that leap to mind on the first three points; 1. The Bible nowhere calls Sunday a holy day or a day of worship. This is vitally important if you are trying to replace “Sabbath” with Sunday. Since that is not the point nor ever should be (“Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival, or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.” Colossians 2:16-17 ESV) – everyday is holy in the presence of the Lord for He is Lord of the rest (Sabbath) which is not in our hearts by the Spirit. The last things that New Covenant Christians want to do is reincarnate the “Sabbath Shadow” as Sunday. 2. Jesus NEVER KEPT IT. He kept the Sabbath. Luke 4:16, 31. So? This is precisely the behavior we would expect when God comes to live among us, He moves into our neighborhoods and customs and that is where He taught and ministered to the Jews. – I believe the Jews worshiped in the synagogues on the Sabbath. He would be a strange Savior if He did not act this way, Jesus’ custom of attending synagogue on the Sabbath did not serve to “immortalize the Sabbath” any more than dinning with prostitutes and tax collectors made those into “blessed professions”. 3. The Apostles kept the Sabbath, not Sunday. Acts 18:4, I think the apostles had learned from the best (Jesus Himself) and He said go… where they are… and make disciples. They would have been poor fishermen if they “fished” in the place where the potential converts did not gather. Acts 13:14,42-44. I would suggest reading the whole chapter – just confirms what we’ve just said. Paul Cross | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 370 Registered: 5-2009 |
I've had people express to me how they could never go to church on Sunday. They would actually rather not worship with other believers at all, rather than worship on Sunday. Apparently, the Jews (to whom the Law was given) had no such aversion. Read Leviticus 23 (where it describes the feasts, including the 7thday Sabbath, btw). The Festival of Harvest was what they were gathered for when the Holy Spirit came upon Jews and Gentiles and birth THE CHURCH. It was a Sunday. In fact, The Festival of Harvest was celebrated 50 days after Passover on the day after the Sabbath (7th day...stuff starts getting tricky when you start mixing Lunar calendars (Jewish) and Gregorian calendars (ours)). So they had no problem coming from wherever they were, giving a special offering, presenting burnt offerings (that the Lord accepted, v.18) on a day other than the 7th day. The day was proclaimed a Holy day for holy assembly! WHAT? On the day after the Sabbath? Yep. It was a day that they weren't supposed to do any ordinary work. So now that you know that Jews had no aversion to gathering on a day to worship other than the Sabbath, please know that Jesus didn't either. See Matthew 26:55 where Jesus affirms that He was in the Temple teaching EVERY DAY. So,what happened after the cross? I found this interesting, so I'll just cut and paste: ****** The early Christians may have worshiped on the Sabbath, along with other days of the week. It would be natural for them to do so, because most of them were Jews continuing to associate with their Jewish brethren. When Paul traveled from synagogue to synagogue in the Mediterranean world preaching the gospel, he often preached on the Jewish Sabbath. This was a matter of necessity. After all, Sabbath was the day Jewish congregations met and Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles associated with the synagogues were the natural recipients for the gospel message. However, Scripture ( Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 ) and the writings of the church fathers show that the primary day for worship in the apostolic church was not the seventh day of the week, but the first. Ignatius, the apostolic church father who was probably born during the time of our Lord's ministry and was, along with Polycarp, a disciple of the apostle John, said this about the Sabbath and Sunday worship: If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith . . . . (Epistle to the Magnesians, chapter 9). Justin Martyr, a disciple of Polycarp (mentioned above) wrote: And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succors the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration (Comments on weekly worship from chapter 67 of First Apology). Along with Ignatius and Justin Martyr, many other apostolic and early church fathers clearly declared Sunday the Christian day of worship. This was long before the centralization of church authority in Rome and the "Christianization" of the Roman Empire under Constantine.2 from -- http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=46170 -- Do we disobey God when we worship on Sunday rather than on the Sabbath (Saturday)? | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 371 Registered: 5-2009 |
By my previous post, I'm in no way suggesting that the Sunday is now the Sabbath nor am I transferring Sabbath sacredness to Sunday. I was just trying to point out that gathering on Sunday is not the taboo, Mark-of-the-beast-getting, false worship event that Adventists claim it is. | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 158 Registered: 4-2005 |
Cloudwatcher, Thanks for the historical notes. I have sat in classes where some of the historical documents were sited - and selected - to give a different impression. The impression that Saturday was observed by Christians much longer after pentacost as SDAs would like us to believe. The feeling is that the latter they can make the beginning of Sunday proactice the safer Saturday Sabbath is from attack. Thanks for the clear evidence that Jewish Christians felt free to worship often regardless of what day of the week it was. Such a freedom in worship would have been consistant with their understanding of the new covenant. Paul Cross | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 159 Registered: 4-2005 |
Cloudwatcher, After re-reading your last 2 posts on this thread I was taken back to that original list and to #11. The list poses a question; (my thoughts in bold) 11. Where, anywhere in the Bible is anyone commanded to keep Sunday? This question shows that some just do not understand the nature of the New Covenant shift and that “Sunday” is not about the DAY. The New Testament (New Covenant) church did not need a command to keep a certain day or to replace Saturday – now they were free – they were free to worship whenever the Spirit moved them to worship. A VERY good question, a better question is Where, anywhere in the NEW COVENANT is anyone commanded to keep Saturday or Sunday? That is the right question in this context - IMO. Paul Cross | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 373 Registered: 7-2010 |
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. (Act 15:23-29) As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. (Act 21:25) These two passages from Acts points out what the "Gentile" Christians were supposed to do or not do. If these men were filled with the Holy Spirit why didn't they write anything about the Gentile Christians keeping the Sabbath? This would have been a perfect time for God to relay that message to "US" Gentile Christians. If you look at Acts 21 Paul got into a lot of trouble for bringing Gentile Christians into the Temple. Why would they be kept out of the Temple if it was about keeping the law? (Message edited by dljc on March 01, 2011) | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 502 Registered: 4-2007 |
11. Where, anywhere in the Bible is anyone commanded to keep Sunday? Of course the Adventist mindset insists that those who choose to worship on Sunday are Sunday 'keepers', but for the sake of discussion I'll leave it lie. An argument based on silence BUT If silence is indicative that Sunday keeping is not a valid issue then why is our Lord Jesus (and all NT writers) silent on the sooo important issue of Sabbath keeping? Is the NT resounding silence on Sabbath keeping equally indicative? The NT repeatedly lists sins of those guilty of breaking 9 commandments but NEVER the fourth, is this silence equally indicative? Is silence golden? "Silence is the element in which great things fashion themselves together; that at length they may emerge, full-formed and majestic, into the daylight of Life, which they are thenceforth to rule. Not William the Silent only, but all the considerable men I have known, and the most undiplomatic and unstrategic of these, forbore to babble of what they were creating and projecting. Nay, in thy own mean perplexities, do thou thyself but hold thy tongue for one day: on the morrow, how much clearer are thy purposes and duties; what wreck and rubbish have those mute workmen within thee swept away, when intrusive noises were shut out! Speech is too often not, as the Frenchman defined it, the art of concealing Thought; but of quite stifling and suspending Thought, so that there is none to conceal. Speech too is great, but not the greatest. As the Swiss Inscription says: Sprecfien ist silbern, Schweigen ist golden (Speech is silvern, Silence is golden); or as I might rather express it: Speech is of Time, Silence is of Eternity." (Poet Thomas Carlyle, who translated the phrase from German in Sartor Resartus, 1831) | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 372 Registered: 5-2009 |
Certainly, if Sabbath-keeping means all that Adventist say it means, then it should have been a central teaching to the Gentiles as well. And even though some may have gathered on the 7th day, God, in His foreknowledge should have warned them that one day this day would be changed. Since it is such a big test of loyalty, such an end-times dividing line, why is there no mention of it's importance to the Church? I guess that's why God needed to raise up a new prophet.... Yeah. I'm gonna go ahead and trust the Bible and the Spirit to teach me. | ||
| Free2dance Registered user Username: Free2dance Post Number: 248 Registered: 2-2010 |
I remember how relieved I was when I learned that God doesn't try to trick us!! I didn't realize how much that idea was ingrained in me. But of course I thought that! This whole Sabbath thing is about being lucky enough to be exposed to the clues that point to the key that utlimately determines whether or not we will enter Heaven. It was like a subtle population control technique. Only the smartest and best can come. I used to ask why Sabbath as a test wasn't mentioned in the NT and people would say, it is in prophesy... It was like there was some mysterious treasure map that leads people to salvation and through survival of the fittest and brightest the saints were chosen. It explained why the number dwindles to 144,000 in the end. Thats how I understood it anyway. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 504 Registered: 4-2007 |
Sounds like what they are really saying that only those 'enlightened' (is there such a word as 'endarkened'?) by the twisted plagiarism of their anti-Spirit of Prophecy could 'see' the Sabbath 'TRUUUTH'! |
