| Author | Message | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1079 Registered: 5-2007 |
EGW in so many words said that satan was responsible for the various flaws and effects we see in nature, such as weeds and thorns and death. Then there are the agnogstics and atheists who suggest that nature is a denial of the creation story. The Bible says that nature testifies of a Creator and leaves man without an excuse. Did God create the thorns or did satan. Did God create disease, virus, bacterial disease or did satan. Did God allow satan to manipulate nature to his own purposes, tampering with genetics? What of the dinosaurs? Did God create meat eating animals before the fall of adam, or afterwards, or as EGW suggests, this was more tampering by satan and/or man? Preadators of land and sea, was this the way of creation from the start or was it after the fall? I do not like subscrbing to satan any act of creation power. EGW even says he plays with the weather ! Yet, there appears to be a truth that satan is still in control to some extent of this world that was once his. Though he is defeated, he has not surrendered his possession as yet. Jim (Message edited by jim02 on February 12, 2011) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1687 Registered: 7-2007 |
Here's a verse: "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2nd Corinthians 4:4 | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3575 Registered: 10-2004  |
That verse says that the devil is the god of unbelievers (the one they worship/follow), not that he is the god/ruler of this planet/Earth. There is only one God and Ruler of the universe--including this world and everything in it. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2011) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3576 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jim, It was not the way Creation was at the beginning and it was not Satan's work. It was God cursing the earth after the Fall. See Genesis 3:17-18. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 12, 2011) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1864 Registered: 6-2006  |
Jim, Are you still reading Ellen White, or is this just stuff you're remembering? With all due respect, it seems (on the surface) like you know more about what she said that what the Bible says... Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12255 Registered: 12-2003  |
Also, dovetailing with Jeremy's post above and the text from Genesis 3, Romans 8:19-23 states that creation groans and has been subjected to frustration by God Himself. The weeds, etc are not the work of Satan; they are God's binding the earth in decay. Colleen | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 348 Registered: 7-2010 |
**Yet, there appears to be a truth that satan is still in control to some extent of this world that was once his. Though he is defeated, he has not surrendered his possession as yet.** Jim, There was a Japanese soldier who was left behind on an Island in WWII. He believed the war was still going on because no one (a ranking officer) had told him the war was over. You can read his story here: http://www.wanpela.com/holdouts/profiles/onoda.html I bring this up because this describes satan very well, with one difference, and that is he knows the war is over. But he knows that many people don't know this. So he continues to deceive them into thinking the war is still going on. The story about the Japanese soldier helps to explain how when "we" don't know the war is over, we will continue to fight. Jesus won the war at the cross. By being the perfect sacrifice and payment for the debt that was owed. Satan doesn't want people to know that the war has been won, that is how he operates. The Great Commission was given to the disciples and us, to share and spread the Good News, that Jesus has reconciled us with Him, and that the war is over. Are we still going to have spiritual battles? Of course! My friend, you are in the middle of one right now. You are struggling between what EGW taught and the SDA church teaches and what the Bible teaches. Satan was never given the ability to create. Manipulate, deceive, lie, kill, that's what he does. But when we have spiritual battles we have a Savior that we stand with, Who is the most powerful of All. Sin entered the world through Adam and Eve by the deception of the serpent known as satan. Sin contaminated the gene pool you might say. But it is by the deception of satan and that's all. Satan was allowed to test Job, but he couldn't kill him. Satan didn't do anything to Job that God wouldn't allow. Satan was allowed to test Peter's faith, but that was it. | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 776 Registered: 1-2007 |
Jim, In the creation story read Gen.1 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.' Do you see anywhere in there where it says God plus Morning Star (aka Satan)? NO! Now go to John 1:1,2 'In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. Again I ask the same question was Morning Star (aka Satan) mentioned? God told Adam after he sinned and was put out of the garden (Gen.3:17-19). 17) Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying"You shall not eat of it": "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. 18) Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, and you shall eat the herb of the field. 19)In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return. So back to my original question did Morning Star (aka Satan) have anything to do with creation? NO! Please set aside that wacky womans teachings and stay strictly with the bible. God does not lie and neither does his Son. EGW sugar coated everything along with her contradictions of herself in her writings. Gail | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1690 Registered: 7-2007 |
God gave the world to Adam and Eve and they gave it to Satan. Unbelievers are still in Satan's kingdom of darkness, but when God saves a person, he/she is brought into God's kingdom of light - see Ephesians 5:8; Colossians 1:13 and 1st Peter 2:9. All the people in the false religions - from Hinduism and Islam to Seventh-day Adventism are deceived - until and unless God intervenes. If I'm not mistaken though, God doesn't intervene until the person either prays for help or because others are praying for the person. | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1082 Registered: 5-2007 |
The reason I brought this up , and the reason I mentioned EGW, is because as a former SDA it is obvious that much of my underlying thinking has been influenced by what I used to know. I do not study EGW anymore, but I may mention something I recall. I feel that there may be partial truths at times to some of her comments , and to that end I was exploring this as a topic. God does not tempt. But God permits satan to test us. At least that was the case with Job. Strangely enough, a sermon I heard on TV this morning was on the topic of where does suffering come from. He said, as Christians it may be from persecution or similar situations defending the faith. He said that it can also be things we bring on ourselves. Being stupid. Bad decisions, bad habits. But there is also suffering that comes from others, people who harm others, broken relationships, and there is disease, accidents and natural disastors. These are those areas that are not so easily taken in stride. These are the ones that call out to God, why ? I do not want to give satan any more ground than he already has taken. I am trying to understand the big picture when it comes to suffering and holding it in contrast to blessings and joy that we all desire from God. I agree, God may not intervene unless there has been prayer for help. Prayer indeed changes things. But here to, understanding what the big picture is. Why are prayers answered for healing in one area and yet not in another? I know there is no universal answer beyond trust and perhaps a self inventory. There are pastors who teach prosperity and power in prayer. Is that a valid path? In some veins it seems we are to expect suffering and loss as part of being a Christian, while others will teach joy and prosperity. I have experienced both. As a former SDA, I long to return to that settled sense of theological security. I have attempted to reconstruct a framework to grow from. The roots of latticed thinking runs deep and I am not sure I will ever be completely rebuilt into a new understanding. I do not have a sense of home anymore denominationaly. But I have continued to keep reading my Bible. Jim | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 859 Registered: 7-2008  |
you either believe the Bible or you believe EGW... You cant believe both. It really is THAT simple..the choice is yours to make. ...Animal | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1692 Registered: 7-2007 |
I was going to add something to my post.... Unless those people in the false religions cry out to God to show them the truth; if they continue to assume that they're in the ONE TRUE CHURCH, they'll be forever separated from God's Presence. Jim; I don't agree with those "prosperity preachers." If they had had SUVs at the time of Christ, would He and His disciples have been driving them? Jim; we're in the covenant of the Spirit now, not the Sinai covenant between Israel and God - "the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones." (2nd Corinthians 3:7) Simply accept Jesus' complete atonement for yourself, Jim. Ask Jesus into your heart and to forgive your sins. Ask for the gift of the Holy Spirit. We're in the "ministry of the Spirit" now. (2nd Corinthians 3:8) | ||
| Mkfound Registered user Username: Mkfound Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2011 |
Jim, I must admit, sometimes I feel the same way that you do. The reason being that in Adventism, we have given the evil side so much control, so much space (on pages of EGW's books for example), so much air time (as SDA's we were always talking about how the devil was going about deceiving people), etc. etc. As you mentioned, EGW even attributes some aspects of creation to the fallen angel. So, I totally get you. I was thinking the same thing myself a little while ago, as in "Who causes all these bad things to happen?" On the one hand--if God is disciplining me--I thought that only God would discipline me--as He is my Father in Heaven. But on the other hand, such great evils happen to people that I believe go far beyond the extent of discipline, and it makes you think the source can only be evil. I can't say that I've come to any sort of conclusion that is all nice and down pat. But what I wanted to share was, the familiar verse, that "All things work for together for good, for those who love God". And from my own experience, I can tell you that the greatest tragedy I experienced was the death of my teenaged brother last year. And out of that tragedy, God brought me to Him, and to the "Jesus-truth", as I like to call it. Within 2 months of my brother's passing away, I was no longer an Adventist, and I was reveling in the joys of being saved, and knowing that God really loved me. So from total hope and despair--both grieving my brother's passing, and the hopelessness of being an Adventist (after my brother passed away, I really grieved over whether I would see him again, because I knew I could never be perfect enough. So it felt like my brother only had a short time on earth, and i would never see him again--there wasn't enough time!) But from this hopelessness God brought me to him and showed me how to be saved (believing), and the assurance of that belief, and God showed me his love. So, using emotions and plain human logic, I can't explain why my brother 'had' to be in the car accident. It makes no sense. He was coming home from his 2nd last exam. His life was just about to start--high school was just about over. He was young--and had big dreams. It just makes no human logical sense that God would allow someone so young to die. From 'logic'--a person could make a picture of a cruel god. But Biblically, and through experience in these last months, I realize that even though things happen terribly in this world--God is in ultimate control. And because He is God and loving, I know that He has been carrying me and comforting me during this tough time. Remember Jesus promised that he had overcome the world--this just before his death he said to his disciples. Just know that you're not alone in all this questioning of how it all works, but try to remember that God is in control of the world, whatever happens. And I know--the GC paradigm will interfere with that. It portrays a picture that God is fighting his hardest--and even needs our human help to show that the evil can be defeated. But nothing could be further from the truth--the devil is already defeated. Jesus is the Winner, praise God! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12258 Registered: 12-2003 |
We experience dreadful things because we are born into a fallen world in bondage to decay. We are never told why God intervenes dramatically to prevent tragedy and other times He allows us to endure it; Job was never told the reason he experienced his dreadful suffering. We are promised that God is with us in our suffering, and He teaches us to trust Him. He does not waste anything that happens to us; He redeems whatever we submit to Him. Ultimately God's work with us is to teach us to trust Him. It's all about believing He tells the truth and trusting Him. He asks us to give up our rationalizing and to BELIEVE Him. As Romans 15:13 says: "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing so that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Joy and Peace are the products of believing; the fruit of belief is hope awakened in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who is our Seal when we believe (as per Eph 1:13-14). Colleen | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 363 Registered: 6-2008 |
GCfrankie, Revelation 22:16 clearly identifies the "Morning Star": "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." (NIV) How did you get ever Satan as the "Morning Star"? | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 703 Registered: 5-2002 |
Maybe meant to say "son of the morning"? "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:12 | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 364 Registered: 6-2008 |
We measly humans CANNOT see the "big picture": that is God's prerogative and He keeps many things out of our sight, sometimes to increase our faith in Him, but always and only because we have no real "need to know", to use a military term. Struggling to comprehend the incomprehensible is futile! Many things will never be revealed to us in this life, and we will have to wait for them to be revealed in the hereafter. We have to give up our attitude that God has no right to hide explanations-whys and wherefores--from us! In this world we can have "the peace that passes understanding" only when we are willing to trust God's wisdom and recognize that He doesn't need our thumbs-up before He acts or our approval afterwards! Trusting God's goodness is not always easy; most of humans will be challenged by this and will never achieve it perfectly. But it is a goal that only He can help us toward. That is what Jesus implied in His instruction that we should be like little children, coming to Him with our cares and concerns with faith in His wisdom and trusting His loving desire to help us. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3582 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yen, Here are a couple of passages:
The word for "morning star" in Isaiah 14:12 is translated as a proper name ("Lucifer") in the KJV. See also: http://www.gotquestions.org/morning-star.html Jeremy | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 368 Registered: 6-2008 |
Interesting, Jeremy! I never noticed before that both Jesus and Satan were called "morning star"! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1088 Registered: 5-2007 |
Animal, EGW believed a lot of things that agree with the Bible. It is not a either or. It is weighing out in the light of the Bible what is truth and what is error. My focus is NOT on EGW. But there are things that are suggested in the form of her commentarys that are reviewed as I attempt a rebuild. To simply say the Bible alone is to also say I need no other outside input or points of view. Is that a valid concept? That would cut across one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit that include teachers. To completely dismiss her as a false prophet and having no audience seems to be the impetus. That may be valid. But that is why I explore these things. So far , I have not found a single source that is perfect. So error notwithstanding. I have to consider the big picture. One of the things about the SDA was that in many ways , it did work. It had meaning, cohesion and a quality that I have yet to find since. I cannot tell you what I am expecting or even looking for. But I knwo it has to be greater than a hunch or a whim. Faith is about the unseen. I get that. But it is also about a spiritual connection. Someone asked me on another string (in so many words) had I ever felt God's Spirit. I believe once upon a time I did. In the Catholic church as a young boy, I sensed the awe and majesty of God in worship. God was very real. Then years later, there were many special moments and times where I sensed God in the beauty of a Sunrise, a calm ocean, or a newborn baby. In the SDA, though I always struggled to do better, I still felt closer to God than now. But the SDA legalism became a stagnation and so I drifted away. Then life brings hardship and loss. I retrace my steps and look for God, and realize , I no longer knew where home was. Ever since, finding God, finding home, knowing that I am where he wants me........ I don't know. Jim | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 1089 Registered: 5-2007 |
Mkfound, I am very sorry that you lost your brother. I believe you are healing and that God has given you great peace. I too, believe that God works things to the good. Like you, I am nowhere near feeling that I have everything down pat. Nor would I ever expect to. If I can arrive at a simple faith. That will be enough. In this world, we carry on despite the darkness, because we are to be a light to the world. Did someone lead you to a new understanding? Have you found a new church? Jim | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 721 Registered: 5-2009 |
Just a few quick thoughts, Jim. (BTW, I'm glad you asked about the thorns, etc. Reading your post, I realized that I still just assumed, I guess, that Satan was the one that put the "thorns on the roses"...and, reading the above posts it hit me that it WAS God's curse, His doing. He was in control of it --NOT Satan! From EGW I had it deep in my bones that "Satan did it"! Wow...another thing I just always "knew" was true falls...Duh!) The more I study, I'm wondering what you find of EGW's that is true. I mean, if she wrote one grace-based statement, she wrote hundreds that contradict it. Even stuff that seemed true, upon examination, ended up being false, the more I study the Bible. My thought is: If there is anything in her writings that is a true statement, it probably came from one of the Christian writers she was copying. Her "true" statements issue would be another excellent topic to research. And, yes, some Christian authors may not have some details correct, or disagree on non-salvational issues (all the Christian teachers I listen to remind their listeners to hold their statements up to the word of God), BUT they do NOT deny the completed atonement, believe that law saves us, believe that Jesus is an archangel or that Satan bears our sins as the scapegoat! I think maybe you have had lots of painful loss and losing a religion, even if false, brings up the pain of the other losses. You WILL find all the security you need in Jesus--He is real and loves you more than you know. And He will always be with you through everything---He went through the storm with His disciples and He will go through all your storms right by your side! He will be your Security now. |
