| Author |
Message |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3570
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 7:32 pm: |     |
Grace,
Here is a brief summary of Pastor Mark's view on the baptism of the Holy Spirit: http://www.calvaryphx.com/askCalvary/afmviewfaq.aspx?faqid=3034
Jeremy |
Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 614
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 8:02 pm: | |
Jeremy, I just went back and looked up the old sermon I was referring to. It's here:
http://www.calvaryphx.com/cdn/media/os/am120609mp3.mp3
(Excellent sermon, by the way--one I highly recommend for anyone who is interested in what the Bible says about tongues...)
After re-listening to it, I realized that he does refer to the Holy Spirit being "upon"... I didn't realize at the time that he meant it as something different from "in".
But I do want to point out that at about the 12:30 point, Mark Martin talks about how evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit isn't speaking in tongues, but power. Power to love, power to witness, power over sin, etc... So I guess that was the part I was remembering that was in reference to the second blessing... He says, "You cannot say that the evidence of being filled or baptized or empowered by the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues..."
I'm listening to your sermon links now--it looks like it's the top one on the page ("Secret Power") that refers to the "with" (para), "in", "upon" (epi).
Interesting, Pastor Mark does talk about constant "refilling"... Again, isn't that then, 2nd 3rd, 4th, fillings? So maybe this is all just a matter of semantics and labeling?
All I know is that God INDWELLS me, and throughout my life, He has also empowered me. And that empowerment happens all the time, at different times and in different situations. So whatever that "empowerment" looks like or what it's called, I don't know. I just know that God's Spirit is very real.
I'm going to study this more...
Grace |
Snowboardingmom
Registered user
Username: Snowboardingmom
Post Number: 615
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 8:04 pm: | |
Just saw your post, Jeremy. Thanks for the summary link. Fits his sermon I just referenced  .
Grace |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7133
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 9:02 pm: | |
Grace, I think a second blessing is the wrong terminology since we are blessed by God even before we are saved, so a 'Second blessing'?
John called it Baptism, Jesus called it baptism, why do we have so much trouble with the word baptism? Who ever started this 'second blessing' stuff anyway? It is certainly a blessing, anything that God does for us is a blessing, but its certainly not the second blessing I ever received.
The largest mistake that I see in saying that we are baptized in the Holy Spirit when we are born again and that all are baptized in the Holy Spirit when we are born again,is that it does away with the simple Gospel. The gospel is so simple even a child can understand it as per Acts 16:31, John 5:24 and others.
Now it may seem to simplify it for those who have not received the promised baptism, that frees you up from any danger of you ever having to acknowledge that there is one.
But to cross the word baptize with believe to me seems down right silly.
"Well, we got saved and we went over to the pool and the Pastor 'believed us! I was the first to get believed, then it was Norma's turn and she got believed.
I do have problems with multiple infillings unless you count that as is taught in Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; But thats not talking about the Lord re-baptising anybody, I think what they call refillings is Just simply the anointing of the Holy Spirit coming on you to supply what you need, which is Spirit, pork chops won't do at a time like that.
I don't see where re-filling is in the bible, if its there, where is it?
True, we are leaky vessels, but the Lord ain't and my sustenance is him, I don't know what your sustenance is. I mean we can avoid getting leaked out by simply applying the bible aspects of everyday living, such as Timothy II 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
Stir it up by remembering all that God has done for you in the past, think on his goodness, then you won't get leaked out. That don't seem difficult at all unless of course there's something wrong with your memory.
I mean folks, I can be low as a sink hole and start remembering all the good things God has done for me straight away, I'm back up.
I mean, I've heard some Pentecostal preachers claim this refilling stuff too, but I can't find it in my Bible. Jesus promised to baptize us in his Spirit, but not more than once, if that's what this 'Infilling business means.
Maybe I'm by that like you all are the baptism, you see baptism and believe as all one word. I mean I don't really know how you arrive at such a thing.
The main problem with re-filling is that he says he will never leave us nor forsake us, so even though I may feel empty I know he is less than a hair breadth away, and this goes for everybody, baptism or no baptism. I mean folks! He doesn't go away and wait till we get leaked out then come back, he is never gone. Think about that. he would be braking his promise and he neeeeever breaks his promise. When you start going on feelings you are in trouble.
If I feeling like kicking my dog I'm pretty sure my dog would appreciate me not going on feelings.
I just don't see re-filling in Acts 4:31.
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7134
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 9:20 pm: | |
I mean really, wouldn't it seem silly of me to say the Spirit leaked out? I mean if it depended on me the Spirit would leak out, but it doesn't depend on me, it is me that is dependent upon him. Baptism means to infuse, if I am infused with him and I leaked, we'd both be in trouble. What? Is Jesus supposed to run out my britches leg or what?
I better get me some longer pants and tie my pants legs in a knot! |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7135
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 9:33 pm: | |
And tongues is not THE evidence, it is An evidence.
Acts 10:44-47 because its part of the package. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12227
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 10:56 pm: | |
I really like Mark Martin's synopsis above, Jeremy. Thanks. I've listened to several of his sermons as well about spiritual gifts and manifestations...
I would deal with the John 20:21-22 text a little bit differently just because when Jesus breathed on the apostles and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit", He had not yet been glorified. John 7:28-39 recounts Jesus' standing up and crying out, at the end of the Feast of Booths, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
Then John writes, "But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (v. 39).
Moreover, in John 16:7, Jesus said, "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you."
So Jesus' breathing on the apostles after His resurrection was certainly gifting them with the Spirit's presence and protection, but this doesn't seem to be a "normative" experience for the church. The apostles had to live during the days between Jesus' ascension and Pentecost, and Jesus provided spiritual protection for them that is not described in detail.
We know, though, that Jesus told them to wait in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit would come upon them with power. They were not go out as His witnesses until after Pentecost. Then, as Jews and Samaritans and Gentiles believed in the Lord Jesus, they also received the Holy Spirit just as the apostles had at Pentecost.
Post-Pentecost, believers, according to the book of Acts, received the Holy Spirit and His power as their inheritance as God's adopted children. But God's blessings on His children don't stop there. Many times God pours out special power and deep worship and new abilities as He calls us and convicts us of His will and His work.
So I see the "indwelling" and the "baptism" as coinciding ever since Pentecost...although I know that many people do receive special events of receiving the Holy Spirit's power and gifting POST-new birth. I don't believe, however, that these empowerings and infillings are getting more of the Spirit. You can't get more of a Person. They are His clear moments of sending and equipping and confirmation...but certainly not everyone experiences these moments in the same ways.
All believers, however, have all of the Holy Spirit. Our willingness to surrender and to be responsive to Him, however, results in our experiencing Him in deeper and deeper ways, and our lives will reflect His power in more consistent and integrated ways.
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7137
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 5:00 am: | |
Then how do you explain the use of the word baptism (baptise) Colleen? Surely the writers knew the difference between the word believe and baptize?
Even the pattern of water baptism follows belief, you believe then are baptized. Post-Pentecost believers also spoke in tongues, all of them.
Lets get away from use of the words 'more of' the bible doesn't say you'll get 'more of'.
No one is contesting the Holy Spirit in you because according to John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
The bible plainly says in Corinthians I 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
A person is born again of the Spirit of God, not apart from the Spirit of God.
Nobody is saying here that "My dog is bigger than your dog." That's a crude way of saying it, but you get the idea. You keep going back to 'Our willingness to surrender, be responsive, why do you see the words indwelling the same as Baptism?
I mean there is just no way you can be a Christian without his indwelling in you (go right back to 1 Cor. 12:3, John 14:17.
Colleen, not a one of us can really explain the Baptism by Jesus himself accept in terms of 'something wonderful'.
In the sci-fi movie 2010 the character asks, "what will happen?" and the return was, "Something wonderful." Now that movie was for entertainment, but the baptism in the Holy Ghost is not to entertain, not to give us more toys,but for Gods purposes here on the earth.
Look, I'm not even 100% sure that I should preach this here amongst formers, one former who had received the baptism said to me,"I don't preach it because it makes them more 'responsible' if you tell them about it." But this again is not according to how I understand the Bible, because it says in Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Colleen, when I said people need to be taught correctly you said, "We don't need a teacher." But who else said that in the Bible?
I'm going to wrap this up, I've done my best by you all. I love all you, I can't even explain that since I haven't even ever met most of you.
This love I feel in my heart toward you all has been a scary thing to me at times, what I can't explain sets me on edge. I keep asking, "Is it you God? Or am I just going nuts?"
As frustrating as the thread has been, I know that when I calm down, the love will come flooding back. I feel like Jonah, "I know you Lord, that's why I don't want to go."
I'm just going to sit out here on this hill under my vine, and wait to see what happens.
River |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 7139
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 5:48 am: | |
You all probably view me as the nuttyest fruit cake under the sun.
Well..if you do, I'm not contesting it. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1600
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 5:46 pm: | |
OK. I don't know why I get so confused by small things sometimes. River says:
quote:Look, I'm not even 100% sure that I should preach this here amongst formers, one former who had received the baptism said to me,"I don't preach it because it makes them more 'responsible' if you tell them about it."
Why would that make me more responsible? Is it something that I must do, or is it something that the Spirit does?
Hec |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12231
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 5:49 pm: | |
It's something the Spirit does, Hec. We don't control God; we submit to Him. He blesses and gifts us as He will...and He has promised all those who believe in the Lord Jesus will receive the Spirit.
Colleen |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 851
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 6:14 pm: | |
God loves me and I love him.
See how simple the bible makes it??
I like to keep my theology that simple so others can come to love God like I do.
Animal...we need to keep it simple so our light can shine for Him. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12232
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 9:38 pm: | |
Hey, Animal, we've been eating popcorn this evening—minus the rootbeer...Yum!
If it's good for Animal, it's good for us!
Colleen |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 852
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 6:11 am: | |
Colleen.....
you is a smart woman !!!!! |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2390
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 7:04 am: | |
Animal,
That statement makes you smarter than the average bear even if you do drink root beer.
Fearless Phil |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 853
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 2:21 pm: | |
awww....shucks.
I wonder if bears like popcorn...hmmmm..
Animal |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1240
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 10:52 pm: | |
I am sure Yogi does |
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