| Author | Message | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 986 Registered: 2-2008  |
I had a conversation last week with a family member. Of all things, she wanted to discuss the 4th commandment... what a surprise ;) She told me that Jesus saved us "out" of our sin but not "in" our sin. Since she "keeps" the 10C's so diligently, she's not living in sin but I am. I am living rebelliously since I know the truth of the weekly Sabbath and I don't keep it. I don't want to bore you with the entire discussion. What bothered me about it all is this comment of being only saved "out" of sin. To me it sounds like another way they strip Christ of who He is and that He's not able to save us completely. We have to prove we can keep His law before He can save us. I just want to know where this belief of only being saved "out" of out sin comes from. Does anyone know? Vivian | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 487 Registered: 4-2007 |
The Remnant Dictionary SIN/SINFUL: Not keeping the Law of God A choice - what you do, not what you are. People are sinful because they choose to sin. The Remnant, through the exercise of their will, choose not to sin and are therefore sinless and safe to save. NOTE: Acts of what appears to be sin by Remnant members are in actuality not sin but merely occasional and unintentional failings, lapses or mistakes. "Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law" (Review and Herald, vol. 71, No. 35, p. 1, August 28, 1894.) "To be redeemed means to cease from sin" (Review and Herald, vol. 77, No. 39, p. 1, September 25, 1900). "Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all his precepts" (Manuscript 122, 1901, quoted in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 6, p. 1118). "To every one who surrenders fully to God is given the privilege of living without sin, in obedience to the law of heaven. ... God requires of us perfect obedience. We are to purify ourselves, even as he is pure. By keeping his commandments, we are to reveal our love for the Supreme Ruler of the universe" (Review and Herald, September 27, 1906, p. 8). HOWEVER the acts of SIN exceed even the breaking of the LAW... The Sabbath-school teacher who is faithful in little things is preparing himself for a higher responsibility. We should be faithful in everything. It is a sin to forget. Many are heard again and again to excuse themselves for some gross error, by saying that they forgot. Have they not intellectual powers? and is it not a duty to discipline their minds to be retentive? It is a sin to neglect. If you form a habit of negligence you will find at last you have neglected your own soul's salvation, and are unready for the kingdom of God. {ST, March 6, 1879 par. 7 Never should we lose control over ourselves. . It is a sin to speak impatiently and fretfully or to feel angry-- {HP 246.4} Poor cooking produces disease and bad tempers; the system becomes deranged, and heavenly things can not be discerned. . It is a sin in the sight of Heaven to have such food. {TSDF 91.9} It is a sin to place poorly-prepared food on the table, {TSDF 97.8} Move out in this work, my brethren in Australasia. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb. 11:1. Have we not proved this in the past? As we have moved out, trusting God's promise, things unseen, except by the eye of faith, have become things seen. As we have walked and worked by faith, God has fulfilled to us every word he has spoken. The evidence we have of the faithfulness of his promises should check every thought of unbelief. It is a sin to doubt, and we do not believe that our brethren in Australasia will be guilty of this. {RH, May 13, 1902 par. 3} It is a sin in the sight of heaven for parents to dress their children as they do. {RH, January 9, 1900 par. 7} It is a sin to be sick}; for all sickness is the result of transgression. {HR, August 1, 1866 par. 2} It is a sin for mothers to remain in ignorance in regard to the physical organism, and the proper manner of dressing and feeding their children. {HR, November 1, 1870 par. 4} . It is a sin to be ignorant of how to care for the wants of this habitation God has given us. {9MR 46.2} The study of Latin and Greek is of far less consequence to ourselves, to the world, and to God than the thorough study and use of the whole human machinery. It is a sin to study books to the neglect of the various branches of usefulness in practical life. Never can one who is ignorant of the house we live in have an all-round life. {YI, April 7, 1898 par. 5} Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here. (Dante) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7126 Registered: 9-2006  |
Hagarff aharf harf harf! I think I just lost twenty five pounds. I just laughed my butt off.  | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8950 Registered: 3-2004  |
If I did not laugh I would cry my heart out and then some. They are sick, sick, sick and do not know it!!! Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12216 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jonvil, Thanks for the collection of sources. No wonder we have been, collectively speaking, so neurotic about fear of food, fear of our feelings, fear of our questions, fear of our curiosity and desire to read for fun and challenge...and on and on. Goodness, those quotes above basically explain my consuming anxiety and guilt during the first 40+ years of my life...even if I never read those quotes, they were the "color" of everything I learned in school, Sabbath School, and at home. Colleen | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1235 Registered: 12-2007 |
Just makes me want to cry.... and to think we used to actually BELIEVE that crap !... and sad that so many we love STILL believe it. Francie | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1861 Registered: 6-2006  |
The author of confusion strikes again! | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 313 Registered: 5-2009  |
Vivian - what does your family member think of Romans 5:8: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Tell me if I'm remembering this correctly..were you in BSF? If so, look at the notes for the Moses study. I don't remember the lesson number, but the notes on the 10commandments give an awesome run down explanation on how NONE OF US can even begin to keep one of the commandments. Your family member sounds so perfect. Why on earth does she need a Savior? I think it's awesome that you regularly have these conversations with family. (Message edited by cloudwatcher on January 31, 2011) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1598 Registered: 3-2009 |
If sin is defined as "the transgression of the law" as the first quotation says, then where are the laws that say that: It is a sin to forget. (ST, March 6, 1879 par. 7) to neglect. (ST, March 6, 1879 par. 7) to speak impatiently (HP 246.4) ... to speak fretfully (HP 246.4) to feel angry (HP 246.4) to poorly cook (TSDF 91.9) to place poorly-prepared food on the table )TSDF 97.8) to doubt (RH, May 13, 1902 par. 3) to be sick (HR, August 1, 1866 par. 2) to study books to the neglect of the various branches of usefulness in practical life. (YI, April 7, 1898 par. 5) for mothers not to know how to dress their children. (HR, November 1, 1870 par. 4) to be ignorant of how to care for our body. (YI, April 7, 1898 par. 5) Hec | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8954 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hec, thank you!!! Diana L | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 87 Registered: 8-2010  |
It is disconcerting to see how the Adventist Institution and their Prophet play fast and loose with what is Sin. It does not differ from the-- (i) RC Church, (ii) Pharisees, or (iii) the other Adventist, cult contemporaries in how they are able to define what is a sin (viz., the works that someone can do or not do to loose or earn salvation). | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 88 Registered: 8-2010 |
And on further thought-- Am I then correct in writing that in addition to the existing Adventist catechism (i.e., the Baptismal Vows and the SoFB) one can effectively say Adventist also have 10 additional commandments? Succinctly stated below as The EGW sayeth thou shalt not I. Forget II. Neglect III. Speak impatiently or fretfully IV. Feel angry V. Doubt VI. Poorly cook and place poorly-prepared food on the table VII. Be sick VII. Be ignorant of how to care for our body. IX. Study books to the neglect of the various branches of usefulness in practical life. X. Not to know how to dress their children If we keep it up to the logical extremes we can also reach 613 Mitzvot. This is just plain sick and cheapens the significance of the Christ's Death on the cross by either saying (i) He didn't do quite enough to save us or (ii) that despite the cost of His life we WANT to be enslaved to some Law from which he freed us. (Message edited by wiredog on January 31, 2011) | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 988 Registered: 2-2008 |
Jonvil- good grief! and they call her a prophet. I'm saving these. Can you tell me what some of these abbreviations stand for? ... ST, HP, TSDF, RH, HR, MR, and YI? (I'm afraid to ask what these are because I know there's gonna be a slue of what they "should" mean! ha! Jonvil... if you want, I want to know what they are according to your "Remnant Dictionary" and according to the sda dictionary. ) Cloudwatcher... excellent reference in Rom. 5:8. Eph. 2:5 can be added to that: "even when we were dead in our transgressions, [God]made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" I haven't attended a BSF yet. I've wanted to, but there isn't a study in my town. The closest one to me is on a Tuesday and I can't make those. You see, she's not the only one to mention this belief. I've had another relative mention this belief too that we are saved "out" of our sin. I was thinking it may have been taught in a lesson within this past year. Both of them say this as if they are quoting from the Bible... yet don't give me a reference to look this up. I guess I need to specifically ask them where this is. I thought that maybe someone here has heard this same rationalization and could tell me exactly what they are referring to. Has your husband heard this before and know what they are referring to? vivian | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 989 Registered: 2-2008 |
p.s. On a Saturday night about a year ago, I asked her if she had sinned that day. She said, "... aahh.. yes... sure." (I should have asked her how she had sinned that day because I KNOW that she believes that she didn't) She didn't want to admit that she thought she was perfect that day because she knows that that would be calling God a liar. So then I asked her why it even mattered that she kept the sabbath if she had sinned and broken the law anyway. no answer. I would have been happy just to hear her say that she WANTED to worship God on a sabbath. But the reality is that she worshipped God on a sabbath just to keep the law.  | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7130 Registered: 9-2006 |
I'm inclined to agree that 'Thou shalt no place poorly cooked food on the table. I have seen some women's cooking so poorly that there has got to be a sin in it somewhere, if it wasn't it oughta be. Perhaps the sin is permitting them within 15 feet of a kitchen? If some of the cooking I've seen doesn't produce disease of some kind, it surely contributes to short tempers. Haaa! I remember my wife, who is a fairly good cook today, when we were first married I came home from the field one day (military) and she had cooked some pinto beans. When I went to dip the beans, as soon as the air hit the beans, the skin peeled off them. I took a bean and threw it on the wall, and of course the uncooked bean hit the wall and bounced off hard as a marble. My new bride went into the bedroom, slammed the door and laid across the bed crying her eyes out. Another time she tried to cook gravy for breakfast, I started to dip the gravy and it was like water, it was early in the morning and I had no time to cook it as I had to leave for the post, so I slung the gravy across the kitchen and of course she heads for the bedroom, lays across the bed and bawls so you could hear her a block away. I went hungry that morning and very ill tempered. | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 314 Registered: 5-2009 |
Vivian, he's only heard it in general terms, but not specifically written somewhere that he can remember. I'll keep my ears open. I'll find that BSF lesson and share it with you sometime. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1112 Registered: 7-2005  |
Indy4now, I just found an old post from a few years ago that I wrote concerning sabbath breaking. The thread is here: http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/5371/4081.html?1143608382 My post said this: When was the death penalty for breaking the Sabbath abolished? When was the last execution performed? Is there anything in history that documents this? After the death penalty was abolished, what form of punishment replaced it? Who was authorized to administer the new penalty? Who was authorized to judge someone guilty of breaking the Sabbath and therefore being deserving of the new form of punishment? If the Sabbath law is still binding today, where can I find specifics on how to correctly keep this law? If my specific instructions are found in the Bible, I can only find them in the Old Testament, which says the penalty for breaking the Sabbath is the death penalty. But that obviously won't work, because no one executes people for Sabbath-breaking any more. If my specific instructions are to be found written in my heart, as the New Testament would suggest, then what is to be my punishment for breaking the Sabbath, who is authorized to pass the judgement that I'm guilty and who is to administer the punishment? How easy it would be to soothe my gnawing need for parameters and boundaries by going to an extra-Biblical source of instruction, like an "inspired prophet." How tempting it is to offer suggestions and instructions to others, when they think aloud in a Bible study class, wondering how they should order their lives in relation to God's Old Testament law. How tempting it is to offer God a substitute for the blood of Christ, when I stand before Him supremely vulnerable, with nothing to commend myself to Him but His own work on my behalf. I must have something! Please, there must be something *I* can do! How sweet the words seem to my shattered spirit, "God requires that His holy day be as sacredly observed now as in the time of Israel. The command given to the Hebrews should be regarded by all Christians as in injunction from Jehovah to them." E. G. White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 296. Oh, what a relief! Finally, something I can sink my teeth into! I'll get busy right away and make a list of all the Sabbath restrictions, so I can measure my performance. Let's see...no swimming in the pool...but it's all right to dangle my feet in the water, while sitting on the edge of the pool... There...now I feel better...because I'm back in control of my eternal destiny. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 490 Registered: 4-2007 |
Vivian They are abbreviations for the sources of these quotes: RH= the 'Retch and Horrific' (formerly known as the 'Review and Herald', YI=the 'You Idiot' (formerly the 'Youth Instructor') ... ST=Signs of the Times HP=In Heavenly Places TSDF=Testimony Studies on Diet and Foods HR=Health Reformer MR=Manuscript Release Jaundiced John | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12223 Registered: 12-2003 |
I love it, HonestWitness! I've also heard that "saved us out of our sins" line...I think it is a more-or-less popular phrase within Adventism right now that rationalizes their belief in perfection without actually saying they believe they have to become perfect. I think it's sort-of like the phrase "safe to save"...some teacher (like Graham Maxwell of "safe to save" fame) uses the phrase, it catches on because it has such a great "sound", and it becomes part of the vocabulary. But I've no idea where this "out of our sin" started... Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3569 Registered: 10-2004  |
Well, I know they've always liked to use the Bible verse that says that Jesus saves us "from" our sins, and they say this means that we cannot be saved "in" our sins. Jeremy | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 991 Registered: 2-2008 |
LOL River... I've committed that sin in my home many times!! ... just ask my husband! My kids use to sit down at the dinner table and look up and ask, "can't we go out to eat somewhere?" haha! thx Honestwitness, this person thinks that because I go to church on a Sunday I am "keeping" a Sunday. So obviously, the only requirement is to go to church on the right day which is Saturday. All other regulations are up to the convictions a person feels they need to do in order to honor the sabbath (... notice I didn't say to honor God. They might "say" they do what they do to honor God, but really what matters is that they honor the sabbath properly). Thx "jaundiced" John! .... hope you feel better! Jeremy and Colleen... It's so sad to see the rationalization they have to go through to prove that they have to be perfect in order to be saved. Yet they can't admit to being perfect because they know that would be calling God a liar. This idea must be spreading because I heard this from 2 different people from opposite sides of the country (one from CA, the other from CT). All this tells me is that their theology doesn't require surrendering to God. To surrender to God would be admitting that their character isn't in "harmony" with God's 10C's. wow... hadn't really thought about that before... To surrender to God would be admitting that their character isn't in "harmony" with God's 10C's. ugh. vivian | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8959 Registered: 3-2004 |
ROFL River!!!! I have committed that sin also. My son has told me that I am the only person he knows that burns toast, using a toaster. How he survived my cooking is a miracle of God. That is one thing I vividly remember when I was going to church, even once in a while. NO ONE COULD ADMIT THEY HAD ANY PROBLEMS. I had been in a 12 step program and had learned it was normal to have problems and that God could help us get through them. But in church, everything and every one had to be HAPPY WITH A SMILE ON THEIR FACES!!!! What a crock!!!!! Diana L | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1599 Registered: 3-2009 |
I have never heard the "out of their sins" phrase. I know that it is very common to quote Mt. 1:21, "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins", and then explain that Jesus came to save people from their sins and not in their sins. Hec | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 993 Registered: 2-2008 |
Thx Hec!!! I'm sure they were misquoting and say ing "out" instead of "from"... I wanted a reference that they use to support this belief. I thought that maybe there was another reference in Romans because one of the discussions I had recently was on Romans. thx so much! vivian |
