| Author | Message | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2716 Registered: 8-2004  |
As I read Ranting and Raving by Jeff Dunn at Internet Monk this morning, I was struck by how much is said here applies to Adventism as well as the programs he targets. I was especially struck by this paragraph:
Jesus did not come to help the bad figure out ways to become good. He came to bring life to the dead. He came to offer us Himself in return for our full surrender. What a trade! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 838 Registered: 7-2008  |
AMEN...AMEN...AMEN !!!!!! Animal is doing cartwheels here !!! The true gospel...Christ died so that we may live !!! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7065 Registered: 9-2006  |
Sounds like this guys view of Jesus as more of a tyrant than anything else. This is not the Jesus I know, he has improved every part of my life, he has not demanded my surrender at any time, he has asked for the sticks I had built around myself for self protection a stick at a time and waited for me to hand him the stick. That is the Jesus I know, and I feel sorry for this guy. Probably doesn't read his Bible much or he has a different one than I got, because my Bible tell me in John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. More abundantly means in great quantities the last time I checked. He came bearing many gifts, and that in addition to the gift of eternal life. He has encouraged me thousands of times when I was down in heart, if he wasn't interested in doing it he sure does a lot of what he ain't interested in. And yes, even though I am bad in a lot of ways, he helps me figure out ways to do good things for others. River | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2717 Registered: 8-2004 |
River wrote, "Sounds like this guys view of Jesus as more of a tyrant than anything else." Seriously? That's not what I got from the article. Did you read the whole article or just the snippet I posted? (Message edited by helovesme2 on January 14, 2011) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7066 Registered: 9-2006 |
I answered the quote you posted. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1574 Registered: 3-2009 |
WOW, River, you lost me this time. Hec | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2718 Registered: 8-2004 |
The point of the article was that Jesus did not come to give us some glorified self-help program. He came to raise us from the dead to life and salvation. It wasn't saying that he doesn't encourage or give gifts. Apparently the snippet I quoted did not carry the meaning over well. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12172 Registered: 12-2003  |
I get what you mean, Mary. My life in Adventism was entirely about getting better, becoming more selfless, more kind, more well-intentioned, less selfish--and it was all about self-denial. I understood Jesus as showing me how I was supposed to be and somehow imparting to me the ability to become good. NO! Jesus asks me for ME. I have to surrender my rights and my life and my self-indulgences to Him, and He makes me alive. I was dead; now I am alive. Before, I was just a dead person trying to become alive by trying to conform myself to the example of Jesus. Now I see He is my Substitute, and as my Substitute, He has the authority to give me His life. Now I am alive, and changes that happen are generated entirely by Him making me aware if yet another "place" in me that I have to entrust to Him. Yes--He came to wake the dead! Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7067 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ok Mary, I read the article and I get what he is going after and I agree entirely, I've been saying the churches are dead for ages. But nevertheless this is a sentence: He could not care less with you improving in any area of your life. Because in the end that is your life. Yours. Jesus does care about every area of your life, and I don't see how it is our life anyhow, we are created beings at the mercy of God. our life is his to do what he wishes with anyhow whether you surrender to him or not. can we remake ourselves? No. When we leave this world, can we direct our spirit upward or downward? No. I get it, the guy is fed up, I get fed up, we should be fed up. Are we at the mercy of these mega churches that are complete with smoke and bone jarring music? No. I get it, he's fed up churches, books and T.V, with a self improvement gospel that never mentions repentance. But are we at the mercy of them? No. I'm sure if the guy re-read some of his statements he would catch it. Probably did, I've made big boo boo's before and I ain't trying to hang him for it. We do need to realize though that we aren't at the mercy of the stick churches. Thats the problem with Adventists, they seem to look at these stick churches like a kid looks to a father. Then when formers come out they grieve as if they have lost the only father they knew. But, as Colleen said, changes that happen to those that love Jesus is generated entirely by him, so we are not at the mercy of all thats going on around us, Jesus can lift us above all this. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7071 Registered: 9-2006 |
Do ya really wanna know why I think Jesus is interested in every area of our life? Go here http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=76WDLLNX | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 968 Registered: 2-2008  |
I agree with you River, God is interested in all areas of our lives. After all, He died for us... why would He die for us if He wasn't interested in our lives? I just think that there are a lot of people who see God as a genie. They go to church because they feel rotten... either emotionally or financially and they figure if their life is this bad... why not try church? why not try God? He's promised me abundant life. So they try God with these expectations they've come up with that they want God to fulfill in their life with no intentions of total surrender of their life to God... for His purpose. People have been approaching their "gods" in this way since the beginning of time. Egyptians would sacrifice to their god in order to have a better harvest. Romans would pay homage to different gods in order to have a better life. Some people approach God in this way too. Their prayer might go something like this: Dear God, you have promised that you came so that I could have life more abundantly so please send me some money to pay my mortgage. So in this sense... God didn't just die for us to make our life better. He's not interested in our physical lives for the purpose of us just having a better life. He wants ME... my heart, soul and mind. As we surrender our lives to Him, He fulfills His promise of giving us life more abundantly. I don't think that this just means we'll have a comfortable life with no issues (emotionally, physically or financially) but with everything that happens in our life whether it's through death of a child, cancer, or in financial abundance... He gives us a life of abundance through ALL circumstances. That's a miracle!! How many of us could say during a time where our marriage is falling apart, or a child dies, or with cancer, that through this circumstance, they know that they can trust God with their circumstance because they know He is the one who gives them life? That is what God is after... our surrender, our life AND in this context He is very interested in every aspect of our life. How many of us could stay in a marriage to Mr. Marlboro Man (taken from "Lies Women Believe") the rugged, beautiful hunk of a man who can supply all of our physical needs and more, who can give us that nice house, who can takes us on those great vacations, etc. YET he can't give his heart up... he remains distant, never sharing his life, his dreams. I'd rather be married to Barney Fife (?sp?) if he was committed and shared his heart and dreams with me. Same with God... He wants a marriage with His body where lives are surrendered... and within this context, He promises to give us life abundantly through ALL circumstances and is interested in all aspects of our lives. vivian | ||
| Gcfrankie Registered user Username: Gcfrankie Post Number: 752 Registered: 1-2007 |
River, thank-you for the video as it is amazing. I am going to give a copy of the address to the pastor and my sunday night bible study teacher and anyone else who is interested. Indy4now, I agree that Mr. Marlboro Man can only temporarily fill your needs before he walks out. The one positive we can rely on is Jesus always by our side through thick or thin in good times and bad when we commit ourselves to him. Jesus being our self-help guru, NOT, but I do think the Holy Spirit does nudge us to want to change our sinful behavior. Jesus is always knocking on our hearts whether saved or still a sinner. What we need to do is really listen for that knock and answer the door and let Him into all aspects of our lives even the dark places. I wish the churches would teach this. I can understand why Jeff Dunn is so frustrated with the churches candy coating everything. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 7072 Registered: 9-2006 |
Viv, You pretty much hit all those nails on the head. I guess the main reason that sentences such as the one I described get me going, is that whenever people have confided in me that life seems hopeless to them, I always assure them that Jesus is right there, even in the midst of the storm and he cares and does answer prayer, it just isn't always in our own time. He is not a distant God, but with us in person. One time my daughter, when she was 13 years old had a toy poodle, the thing got out in the road and got runned over, so she took this tiny broken thing into her bedroom and sat down in the corner with the dog. I went into her room where she was sitting with the dog, the dog was mangled and bleeding form it mouth, and his bones were broken all over. Normally I would have taken the animal out and put it to death to put it out of its misery, but there she was, sitting in that corner with the dog. I told her the dog was suffering, and that he would not live. But she had faith in God and said she was going to pray for him. Well...what does a father do with that? I walked away, and in the living room I told my wife, "There is no way that dog will live until morning, but I'm going to wait until it dies, then take it out and bury it." My daughter sat there with that dog and prayed all night, and the next morning that crushed thing was up drinking water. That dog lived several more years and died of old age. I have never in my life seen an animal in such bad shape as the dog was. I can't sit here and say that God healed the dog, but I can say that I never saw an animal recover like that, and I have been around animals all my life, tried to treat dogs and it takes less than that to kill them. Today my daughter has much faith in God. I want to impress that God cares so much for people, he is close, and he cares. There are people on this forum who are going through hard trails, I know it isn't easy, with some, family has hurt you, with some it may be financial struggle, with others you are tempted to give up, don't give up. look up brother or sister because God does care for YOU. Let your faith reach out, look to Jesus and live above the shadows. River | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 969 Registered: 2-2008 |
... the faith of a child. There's nothing more precious than that!!! I loved your last line River, "Let your faith reach out, look to Jesus and live above the shadows." Truly, Christ is the ONLY way to live above the shadows. Sergio and I were talking today about how people "use" Christ as a safety net or like one of those lifesaving donuts at a pool. A lot of people believe that they can swim on their own and if they do sin... there's Christ, the "lifesaving donut" to bail them out. What some don't realize is that they can't swim without Christ. He's just not our safety net in cause we mess up, but He's the only reason we live and can swim. Thanks for this thread Mary! vivian | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 1213 Registered: 12-2007 |
love the video River  I posted it on FB |
