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Message |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 189
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 11:06 pm: |     |
Dear Dennis,
i do not believe in a limited atonement.
i believe that Jesus died for all the sins of the whole world, all of mankind each and every person.
i believe what the Bible says:
God so loved the World...equals everyone
Jesus died once for ALL...all means allllll
i just cannot find the place where God limits the death of Jesus to believers only??
i do not see God so loved believers...
or
Jesus died once for believers......
or
Jesus died for believers sins and not just believers sins but also the sins of believers..
that does not even make sense....
The Word says 1 John 2:2
Jesus is the atoning sacrific for our sins (believers) and NOT for ours (believers) only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD...equals all mankind, if you will or believers and unbelievers.
i do not see how it could be said any plainer.
The atonement for sin was for everyone.
Not everyone accepts the atonement/free gift of salvation.
Those who refuse the finished work of Jesus on the cross commit the ONE unforgivable sin...
The ONE sin that wll send them to hell for all eternity and that sin is refusing the salvation Jesus purchased for them...paid in full for all.
There is NOTHING standing between God and man except for man's willingness or unwillingness to come to Him on His terms and His merits alone.
The full price was paid for ALLL but not all will be saved.
much love
handmaiden |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 190
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 12:15 am: | |
Dear Jim,
We sin because we are born sinners.
We were sinners from the begining.
We became sinners in Adam.
We did not become sinners because we sinned... we sin because we are sinners.
The cause of sin is man's rebellion against God or our nature to sin.
Only two men did not have a sin nature...
Adam before the fall and Jesus the second Adam.
Before the fall Adam had a free will...
he could choose to obey God or disobey God = sin or not sin.
He used his free will to SIN.
NOT THY WILL BUT MINE BE DONE.
After the fall Adam lost his free will...
he could no longer choose to sin or not sin.
He could only sin.
Every thing he did was counted as sin.
Man can do NO good apart from God.
All our "good works" is counted as unrighteousness...filthy rags.
Jesus was born sinless.
He had free will to sin or not sin.
Jesus chose NOT to sin. NOT MY WILL BUT THINE BE DONE.
We are either in ADAM = sinners
or
we are in Christ, who restores our free will..
Now we are able to again choose to sin or not sin.
If we choose to sin, we do not fall like Adam did, as our sins are already paid for on the Cross and we have an advocate with the Father, even Jesus, who says "yes, they are guilty.. But the penalty has been paid in full for their sins".
Now we can choose not to sin by abiding in Jesus and letting Him live in and through us...apart from Jesus, we can do no good thing but in Him, by His power we can choose not to sin.
We are not saved by good works...we have none.
We are saved unto good works, we are saved to do good works.
We do good works because we are saved not to become saved.
If we sin the eternal punishment is gone...
but the temporary consequences are still in effect.
A little boy may break a window. His father forgives him the relationship is not broken ... but the window still is  and one or both must pay for it or work for it to be fixed... a temporal not eternal consequence.
If someone is murdered, the family of the victim may forgive the murderer, but the victim is still dead.
The eternal penalty was paid for on the cross but the temporary consequence is the victim is separated from his family, on earth but not necessarily in eternity.
A righteous man falls seven times and rises again.
Christians are not perfect but they are forgiven.
Forgiveness removes the eternal penalty but not the temporary consequence.
These consequences are learning experiences, they are trials and sufferings for living in a still fallen, sin dominated world...SIN DOES NOT JUST AFFECT THE SINNER BUT ALL OF US.
God uses these things to conform us into His image... to mold us into vessels of honor, the pressure to form a diamond from the coal and to chisel the intricate cuts of a beautiful diamond to make it sparkle. He uses pruning and fertilizer to cause us to be more fruitful trees.
What satan means for evil, God uses for good and for His glory.
This life is a snap of the fingers a vapor and it will all be over soon and THEN Jim, we will enter into His glory... where eye has not seen nor ear heard nor has it entered into the hearts of man, what God has prepared for those, who love Him and are called by His name.
It will be worth it all when we see Jesus.
How do we come to Jesus in our failings ....just that way.... we run into His loving, merciful and compassionate arms....and He gives us rest and peace that the world will never know....because He is our Father and He loves us.
Because He is our Father, He chastens us, disciplines us, teaches us and watches us grow.
He does the work in us and presents us blameless before the Father in Heaven.
Rejoice He is coming soon!!!!!
much love
handmaiden |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2157
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 6:22 pm: | |
Handmaiden,
Thank you for your comments. Apparently, you really do believe in limited atonement by concluding that "not all will be saved." If Jesus fully paid the penalty for everyone's sins, then everyone must be saved. Otherwise, our sovereign God would be grossly unjust in demanding double payment for every unconfessed and unforgiven sin that is forever before the Father. The ungodly will pay for their own sins in hell--not even Satan can be blamed for them. An appropriate theme in hell would be the popular song, "We did it our way."
quote:I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for Myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will. --Charles Spurgeon, the prince of preachers
quote:If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ alright. --Martin Luther
quote:"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16 ESV).
quote:"...no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father" (John 6:65 NASB)
It's all about Him! To God alone belongs all the glory!
Dennis Fischer |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 1168
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 11:00 pm: | |
I believe that Jesus did die for the sins of ALL.
BUT I also believe it is up to each of us to either accept or reject that gift. I dont think it is all that complicated. Either we accept His gift or we don't.. Just because He paid the price for us and the gift is offered doesnt mean He is going to force us to accept it. |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 192
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 12:13 am: | |
AMEN!!!!! Skeeter, You got it!!!! SALVATION is as simple as that....
ALL sins are forgiven and PAID IN FULL ....we are ALL FREE to ACCEPT the free gift and be SAVED or to REFUSE it and be LOST. |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 193
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 12:27 am: | |
Dennis
The atonement by Jesus on the cross was unlimited in that it paid for all sins except the unforgiveable sin of refusing the free gift of salvation.
People who refuse the free gift of salvation and go to hell do not pay again for their sins ...they are paying for the ONE sin, Jesus did not pay for on the cross the rejection of Jesus as their Saviour.
God freely chose all people to be saved and sent His Son to die for all people but all people did not choose God back.
God gives us all a free will.
He does not force us to accept or force us to decline His gift.
The choice is ours alone to make.
God says "I have set before you life and death...choose LIFE!"
love
handmaiden |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2158
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 4:37 pm: | |
Handmaiden,
The unconfessed and unforgiven sins of the ungodly are forever before the Father. Hopefully, you are not saying that Adolf Hitler only had one sin (unbelief) akin to a garden-variety sinner who is not touched by God's free grace. The Bible clearly teaches degrees of reward and punishment (these vary according to their works). Although we are not saved by our works, we are punished or rewarded according to our works. This reflects more than merely one sin by the ungodly. Your view would require the same reward or punishment for all people. Faith itself is a gift from God. If God chose all people to be saved, then all people will be saved. However, the Bible reveals that it is not His plan to save every single person. If God wanted to save everyone, He would need to radically change all human hearts so they would eagerly desire Him (i.e., the apostle Paul on the road to Damascus).
We can't choose what we don't desire. Christmas shoppers will discover this truth anew this season. God must first intervene in order for any fallen man (rebel against God) to choose Him (John 6:44). Remember, God hated Esau and loved Jacob BEFORE they were even born. Both Judas and Pharaoh were very evil men that God allowed to bring glory to His name and to fulfill Scripture. Although Joseph's brothers meant it for evil by throwing him into a well, God actually meant it for good. Likewise, God chose ancient Israel above all other nations in the world. Indeed, God chooses the members of His wonderful family--the elect. Jesus made it clear to His disciples that they didn't choose Him, but rather He chose them (John 15:16). The fact that God chooses some people doesn't obligate Him to choose the rest as well. He doesn't owe salvation to anyone. This makes His free grace even more amazing. Salvation comes from the Lord (Jonah 2:9). Let us remember that salvation is entirely God-centered and not man-centered. Contrary to popular opinion, human beings are not the captains of their eternal destiny. It's all about Him! Soli Deo Gloria!
In His power and for His glory,
Dennis Fischer |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1527
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2010 - 8:00 pm: | |
How can you be sure the Hitler will not be in heaven? 'Do you know if he accepted Jesus at the very last second?
Hec |
Handmaiden
Registered user
Username: Handmaiden
Post Number: 198
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2010 - 5:56 am: | |
Dear Dennis,
My Bible tells me that Jesus hung on the cross dying and said
"Father, FORGIVE them, for they know not what they do". Luke 22:34
FORGIVENESS does not depend on the wrongdoer but on the HEART of the FORGIVER.
Jesus was asking forgiveness for people who had not only NOT confessed their sin,
But did not even realize they were sinning.
My Bible tells me that i am to love my enemies, do good to those who hate me, pray for those who despitefully use me and bless those that curse me. These things would be reallllly hard for me to do
IF i had not already forgiven them.
People that are my "enemies" and treat me badly are not in the habit of repenting and confessing their "sins" against me. i choose to forgive them whether they have asked for it or not.
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them...” Mark 11:25
Am i as a christian ONLY supposed to forgive Believers???
No, i am to forgive as God has forgiven me.
Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Ephesians 4:32
My Bible tells me i am to forgive others as God in heaven has forgiven me.
God forgave me ALL my sins... when Jesus paid the sin debt of the World BEFORE i was born, before i committed any sin and certainly before i believed in Him or i confessed any of my sins.
Jesus died to reconcile mankind to God, to remove any and all obstacles between man and God that WHOSOEVER believes shall not perish but have ETERNAL LIFE.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, NOT WANTING ANYONE to PERISH, but EVERYONE to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
God DID CHOOSE everyone.
HE IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS AND SHOWS NO PARTIALITY.
“Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show PARTIALITY but teach the way of God in accordance with the TRUTH. Luke 20:2`
But each ONE of us has the FREE WILL to ACCEPT or REJECT the wooing of the Holy Spirit to receive Christ as our Saviour.
IF we REFUSE to ACCEPT what God has done on our behalf THEN we will be lost, condemned and enter into eternal punishment - hell and punished in varying degrees dependant on our KNOWLEDGE of Jesus Christ and how many times we rejected Him or hardened our hearts in our lifetimes.
They perish because they REFUSED to love the truth and so be saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:10
But the one who does NOT KNOW and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. Luke 12:48
Truly I tell you, ALL people can be forgiven ALL their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an ETERNAL sin.” Mark 3:27-29
Yes, God does use the wicked for His purposes and yes if we harden our hearts FIRST then God can allow our hearts to be further hardened like He did in Pharoah's situation.
But sin is sin to God,
1 sin or 10 billion sins, it does not matter the number of sins.. sin separates us from God.
EXAMPLE:
a murderer gets the death penalty for taking a human life.
a serial killer gets the same death penalty for taking 20 lives.
Yes, IF Hitler or Stalin or Mao tse Tung had turned to accept Jesus with their final breath, they would have been saved.
God is not willing that ANY should perish. He came to save the lost and that was everyone including Hitler. IF and it is a very BIG IF, but if Hitler chose God back and received the free gift of salvation, then he too would have been saved.
If a man stands on the lowest spot on earth = death valley and another man stands on the highest point on earth = summit of Mt Everest ...they would look even and equal to a man standing on the moon.
This is God's perspective - sinners are equal in His sight.
The worst sinner in the world and the best person in the world would be in the same condition WITHOUT Christ.... lost and condemned to hell...punished according to their knowledge of the Christ, they had REJECTED.
In fact the Bible says the one, who loves God the most is the one, who had the most sins forgiven...."which one loves me more"...Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.” “You have judged correctly,” Jesus said. Luke 7:42-44
Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.” Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” Luke 7:46-49 (no mention of a confession of sin before forgiveness here either)
The thief on the cross did not confess his sins to Jesus!
He acknowledged the Lord and asked to be remembered when Jesus entered His kingdom.
Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw THEIR faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” Matthew 9:2
(again no confession of sin before forgiveness).
And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. (no confession of sin here either)
The night i gave my life to Jesus, i did not confess every sin i had ever committed in order to receive His forgiveness and His free gift of salvation.
i simply acknowledged that i was a sinner and needed Jesus to save me.
My Bible says that as far as the east is from the west is how far God has removed our sins. Psalm 103:12
Dennis, WHERE do you get this idea that unconfessed sin is unforgiven and where do you get the idea that alll unconfessed and unforgiven sin is FORVER before the Father????
i see no verse in the Bible that would support such a statement.
You say that...
"If God chose all people to be saved, then all people will be saved. However, the Bible reveals that it is not His plan to save every single person. If God wanted to save everyone, He would need to radically change all human hearts so they would eagerly desire Him (i. e., the apostle Paul on the road to Damaascus)."
How do you get that view when the Bible says that God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotton Son that WHOSOEVER believes shall not perish but have eternal life.
OR that God is not willing that ANY should perish.
For my Father’s will is that EVERYONE, who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:40
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Acts 2:21
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:13
Or the gifts and calling of God are without repentence or respect of person.
for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29
It sounds to me that God is willing to save any/all.... all that will come to Him in the Name of His dear Son Jesus.
Sounds to me like God chose EVERYONE But NOT ALL chose Him back.
EXAMPLE:
A man can fall in love and choose a bride ...but he cannot make that woman love him and choose him back. The woman has a free will and can choose another man or not to marry at all or she can chose to love and to marry the one, who has chosen her.
God wants us to come to Him, just as He came to us, FREELY and out of a heart of love.
He does not force us to come to Him. He woos each and every one of us but we are free to reject that wooing.
Yes, even faith is a gift from God and the Bible says all men are given a measure of faith.
God DID intervene ...He sent His Son to reconcile man to God by His death on the cross..
If God had not intervened the WHOLE WORLD would have been lost.....condemned already ....John 3:17.
God is omnicient He knows all who will come to Him and all who would reject Him. But He still made availabe to ALL the offer of the free gift of salvation.
God hated Esau before he was born because He KNEW that Esau would not value his birth right.
But the birth right was STILL GIVEN to Esau and it was his to keep or sell as he chose.
He chose to sell his birthright for a bowl of soup......as God foreknew that he would.
God is Sovereign and uses our free will choices as He wills in His plans for our good or our destruction or to fulfill prophecy.. because He does know the begining and the end of all things.
If i know that my daughter's favorite color is purple and i buy her a purple and a red sweater ... i know which sweater she will choose without violating her free will.
God in His Sovereignty can do the same with our free will choices .. He knows and uses our choices without violating our choice/free will in His eternal plans.
God chose everyone... the elect are the ones who chose Him back. and God foreknew this.
But just as with Esau, God STILL sent His son to die for ALLL and Let us make OUR OWN choices even, when He knew what we would choose.
Jesus is the Lamb that was slain BEFORE the foundation of the world..
i have to disagree with you, Dennis human beings are the captains of their fate/eternal destiny.
God does NOT send anyone to hell.
NO ONE WAS CREATED TO GO TO HELL.
No,One goes to hell, unless they CHOSE it themselves, by REJECTING of their own free will, the ONLY means of entering heaven.
much love
handmaiden |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2159
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2010 - 5:22 pm: | |
Handmaiden,
Irrefutable evidence reveals that Hitler and Stalin fully knew what they were doing. Only an eternal hell can justly and effectively give Adolf Hitler six million consecutive life sentences. Sin is nothing less than cosmic treason against a holy God. Human beings are morally-incapable of choosing Christ with their fallen will. Desiring and choosing Christ is not the same as choosing a menu in a restaurant which doesn't require any saving grace but only the common grace given to all. Jesus emphatically stated that "no CAN come to me unless it is granted him by the Father" (John 6:65). Notice that the words of Jesus are all-inclusive and don't leave us with any doubt about the phrase "no one can". This phrase clearly describes all human beings. We cannot choose what we do not desire.
The Great Apostle concludes: "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:18 ESV). These are not my words or philosophy. The phrase "no one can" denotes moral inability due to a fallen will. Moreover, Jesus said in His high priestly prayer: "I am not praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours" (John 17:9). Even a casual reading of John 17 verifies that God elects His own. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, And this is not your doing; it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8; see also Eph. 1:5). The gift of salvation is not extended due to any human merit, but solely upon the sovereign will and mercy of God (Rom. 9:14,15,18,21). After all, He is the Potter and we are the clay (v.21).
God does not encourage, facilitate, or author evil in any way (He simply left or hardened the Egyptian pharaoh by leaving him alone in his sins and his bent toward evil to bring glory to His name among all nations in that area. Everything that God does is for His glory. Likewise, with Judas, the Bible declares that it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born, but he was chosen so that Scripture would be fulfilled. God didn't have to make the pharaoh or Judas into lost men--they were lost already. Unlike Peter, Judas was not given eternal security in Christ. Yes, John 3:16 tells us that only those who "believe" will inherit everlasting life. Faith or belief in Christ is always preceded by God doing something first; specifically, regeneration. Thus, the only way that anyone can be brought to faith is by being born again. Jesus said that being born again is a requirement for salvation. Just like we had absolutely nothing to do with our physical birth, we likewise have absolutely nothing to do with our spiritual birth as well. Salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. It's all about Him! To God alone belongs all the glory!
Dennis Fischer |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1531
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2010 - 7:53 pm: | |
John 3:16 SPV: For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life, except Adolph Hitler.
Hec |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12057
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 12:44 pm: | |
The Bible absolutely teaches election. Absolutely. And Jesus did clearly pray for those the Father gave Him...although in the context of John 17:9, Jesus is specifically praying for His disciples who will be immediately carrying His gospel into the world.
The only prayer Jesus could pray for the world was that the world would come to know Him—and in verses 21 and 23 Jesus does pray this:
quote:…that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
This passage in John 17 is not a central passage proving the election of a few; it is, rather, showing that those to whom God has granted faith to believe are being prayed for by Jesus to receive all that God granted to Jesus so they can go into the world so the world may also believe.
Election is absolutely a biblical teaching. And so is the command to believe. The Bible is also clear that belief is only possible as a gift from God (Eph. 2:1-10 describes this reality). God graciously grants people who are utterly dead spiritually the gift of faith so they can believe.
The Bible also teaches that God is
quote:the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Tim. 4:10).
And this:
quote:He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only but also for those of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
These verses are not in the Bible for us to make a "formula" explaining how Jesus' blood is not "wasted" or how sins are not paid for twice. On the contrary, these verses are in the Bible for US to respond to God's truth.
God isn't explaining how He saves in His revelations of Scripture. The ways and methods of God are inscrutable to us, and we can no more explain the mechanism of salvation than we can explain the mechanism of creation.
God is revealing that He saves, and He is revealing to us how He Himself has taken responsibility for human sin, paying His own price required for sin, and providing our own Creator as our Substitute. God reveals His work in salvation and explains that in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life, we must receive the Lord Jesus and His shed blood as our own payment for sin and allow Him to be our Savior and Lord.
The Bible tells us what is required for our salvation from our perspective, and these things are
quote:written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope (Rom 15:4).
We are commanded to believe, and the fact that only God can give us the faith necessary to believe is one more reason to praise Him. Nevertheless, we must obey when the words of Scripture are clear to us.
From our perspective, we are obligated to respond when the Holy Spirit imprints the truth of Scripture on our hearts. The Pharisees committed the unpardonable sin because they looked right at Jesus, knew that He was fulfilling all the OT shadows and prophecies of the Messiah, knew that His power was from God, and refused to believe. Ditto for Judas. Judas even sent out with the apostles and did miracles with them during Jesus' ministry.
From our earthly perspective, we we must believe when we know who Jesus is. God does not reveal to us how He interacts with the hearts of any other person.
We have to embrace that God elects, and God commands us to believe. Walking a "sawdust trail" does not constitute belief. Deciding to mentally "accept Jesus" and respond to a call does not equal saving faith either, although saving faith can coincide with such a moment.
Salvation occurs where it can't be seen: internally. Election is true; we cannot say that Judas, for example, was elected for salvation, because Jesus said Judas betrayed him in order to fulfill Scripture. Yet we cannot say, either, that Judas was never without opportunity to believe.
We simply can't explain this mystery; we are human. God alone can see all reality. We are asked to trust Him and obey Him when His Spirit convicts us.
We diminish Him and His incredible mercy and grace and justice and wrath when we try to formulate how He saves and how people are lost.
We have to accept not knowing how He does it...but we also have to accept the fact that He is clear what we must do: BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus, repenting of our sin, and declaring He is our Lord. We must be honest before Him—and we can't do ANY of this unless His Spirit gives us His power and understanding and conviction. And we cannot explain HOW He is interacting with any other person.
Election and our responsibility to believe: they are concurrently true.
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2160
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 2:08 pm: | |
Handmaiden,
The unconfessed and unforgiven sins of the ungodly do not somehow evaporate by themselves. The unbelief of the ungodly reflects that our sovereign God never brought them to faith. On the other hand, the godly exhibit a heartfelt sorrow for sin, a renouncing of it, and a sincere commitment to forsake it and walk in obedience to Christ. Unbelief is the inevitable result of a profane life. Moreover, theological liberalism, in at least its extreme forms, represents a sort of unbelief. God didn't cause the lostness of the wicked, they were lost already without Christ. If God didn't save even one person He would still be a great and awesome God. The real truth is that we all deserve eternal separation from God due to our original sin condition. The fact the He even saves some makes His saving grace even more amazing. He doesn't owe us anything. We are all born as rebels against God--no exceptions.
Fallen man is morally-incapable of bringing himself from death to life. Many people today (not just Adventists) wrongly believe that God helps them to save themselves. The harsh reality of this world has conditioned them to conclude that there is no free lunch nor any free grace. Thus, they want to have a controlling part or final word (salvation by works) in their eternal destiny. They refuse to give God all the glory. The fallen will of man has no desire for Christ. This is why Jesus taught eternal punishment in hell. One must be alive to be tormented. Scripture informs us that hell only gets worse while heaven only gets better. Thankfully, God's people are promised to never come under any judgment or condemnation that would jeopardize their salvation in any way (Romans 8:1). "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God" (v. 16). "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills and he hardens whomever he wills" (Romans 9:18 ESV). It's all about Him!
In the Potter's hand,
Dennis Fischer |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2161
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2010 - 3:14 pm: | |
Hec,
No one has the innate ability to believe or come to faith. It is a gift from God that follows the miracle of regeneration. Soli Deo Gloria!
Dennis Fischer |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2162
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 4:23 pm: | |
Colleen,
In 1 Timothy 4:10, Paul is obviously not teaching universalism, that all people will be saved in the spiritual and eternal sense, since the rest of the Bible clearly teaches that God will not save everyone. Most will reject Him and spend eternity in hell (Matt. 25:41,46;Rev. 20:11-15). Yet, the Greek word translated "especially" must mean that all people enjoy God's salvation in some way like those who believe and enjoy His salvation. The simple explanation is that God is the Savior of all people, only in a temporal sense, while of believers in an eternal sense. Paul's point is that while God graciously delivers believers from sin's condemnation and penalty because He was their substitute (2 Cor. 5:21), all people experience some earthly benefits from the goodness of God. Those benefits include common grace that God gives to all people (sunshine, maintaining order, restraining evil in our society, wholesome food, rain, compassion for the undeserving, unregenerate sinners, monetary wealth, and the Gospel message). God is, by nature, a saving God. That is, He finds no pleasure in the death of sinners. His saving character is revealed even in how He deals with those who will never believe, but only in those temporal ways.
In 1 John 2:2, the phrase "for the whole world" is a generic term, referring not to every single individual, but to mankind in general. As I indicated earlier in this thread, Christ actually paid the penalty only for those who would repent and believe. Since much of the world will be eternally condemned to hell to pay for their own sins, they could not have been paid for by Christ (see Matt. 7:13-14).
In John 17:21,23, the thought here is that they may be brought together in the same spiritual life around the truth that saves. That prayer was answered by the reality of 1 Corinthians 12:12,13 and Ephesians 2:14-22. The high priestly prayer of Jesus, in John 17, should really be called "the Lord's prayer."
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12069
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| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2010 - 8:34 pm: | |
Dennis, I never suggested Paul teaches universalism, and you know I don't believe such a thing! 1 Timothy 4:10 says that Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. In other words, He is the world's Savior. He came for all mankind. All. Those who believe will experience it.
Believers believe only by the power and grace of the Holy Spirit. None of us "decides" to be saved. Nevertheless, when the Holy Spirit confronts us with the reality of needing to believe, we must obey.
I'm not talking about so-called "decisional regeneration". I'm talking about something we can't explain or define; but I'm deeply opposed to "formulating" the process by saying Jesus did not actually die for the sin of the whole world. Of course those who do not believe do not receive forgiveness or eternal life. At the same time, we cannot diminish what Jesus did in order to get the "sin/payment formula" to balance from our time-bound perspective.
We are saved or lost on the basis of whether or not we have believed and have been counted righteous because of Jesus. God sees us either in Christ or not in Christ. If we are not in Christ, we are still dead in sin and bound in the domain of darkness. If we are in Christ, we have passed from death to life.
God evaluates us on the basis of our relationship with Jesus, not our relationship to sin. Sin is a given. Jesus took care of sin by breaking its power. We are either alive in Him—or, like the Pharisees, we refuse to believe.
Yes, there is election—but we can no more explain how God elects vessels for honorable or common use than we can explain how we can be commanded to believe when belief comes from God.
We can't explain it—and we cannot diminish the magnitude of what Jesus did.
Colleen |
Dennis
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Post Number: 2163
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| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 9:17 am: | |
Colleen,
I didn't say that we can explain how God actually elects His people. Obviously, according to many biblical biographical accounts, God's choice, will, or election is not based upon any human merit (i.e., the apostle Paul, Abraham, the penitent dying thief, etc.) If we could fully explain and know the ways of our holy and sovereign God, He would not be worthy of our adoration, praise, and worship. As finite beings, we cannot even imagine the ways of an infinite, holy God.
We certainly do not "diminish" or "limit" Christ in any way by citing passages like Matthew 1:21; John 6:37,44,65; Romans 9:11-16,18,21, Ephesians 1:5, John 17; 18:9, etc. It is impossible to "diminish" our Triune God by giving Him all the credit, honor, praise, and glory for the salvation of His elect or chosen ones. Faith or belief itself is a gift from God. After all, He is the Potter and we are the clay. It's all about Him!
Dennis Fischer |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3511
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 7:07 pm: | |
Awhile back, I watched an excellent series by Dr. R.C. Sproul on the TULIP. I especially recommend watching his explanation of Limited Atonement, which can be viewed for a few more days here: http://www.ligonier.org/rym/broadcasts/video/limited-atonement/ (The rest of the series, except for Part 1 of Total Depravity, can also still be viewed, although they won't be on the site much longer.)
I am always puzzled by the resistance to the teaching of Limited Atonement, since it seems to me that even Arminians should have no problem with the teaching. In other words, why should Arminians object to the teaching that Jesus atoned for the sins of all those whom He foreknew would choose Him? If He foreknew who would be lost and, as Spurgeon liked to point out, especially with regard to all of those who had already died as lost souls before He came to earth and were already burning in Hell (Sheol/Hades), why would He atone for their sins? And how could He actually atone for their sins without them leaving Hades (or not going there in the first place!) and entering Paradise and receiving eternal life? If all of their sins are actually atoned for, propitiated, blotted out, gone--then how can they still justly be sent to Hell?
The answer is that Arminianism actually denies that Jesus really atoned for the sins of anyone. In reality, everyone, except for Universalists, "limits" the atonement in one way or another. The classic teaching of Arminian "unlimited atonement" is that His atonement does not actually have any inherent power in itself to actually do anything, unless a person chooses Christ and chooses to have the atonement "applied" to them. Thus, who is it that is really limiting the atonement? Is it the Calvinists? Or is it the Arminians?
The classic statement of those who adhere to so-called "Limited Atonement" (or "Definite Atonement") is that the sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient for all (thus not diminishing the value of Jesus' sacrifice at all and thus enabling the universal call of the Gospel), but efficient only for the elect.
Let's take a look at that text in 1 John 2: "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." (1 John 2:2 NASB.)
That word "propitiation" means that His sacrifice actually did something--something very powerful--all by itself, without any "help" from our human will or decision or choice or faith or belief. It means that the blood of Jesus actually and totally appeased the wrath of God on our behalf. It thus guaranteed our salvation, guaranteed that we would believe in Christ (by God's will and power--faith being His gift), and guaranteed that our sins would be blotted out and we would not remain children of wrath. That's how powerful--inherently powerful--the blood of Jesus is! It makes me want to shout "Hallelujah!"
So, if we take that verse to refer to everyone who ever lives in this world, then we would have to believe in Universalism, because if the blood of Jesus has actually eternally appeased/satisified God's wrath against them, then where is God's wrath going to come from? How can He get His wrath back so that they are able to go to Hell and suffer His wrath? Did Christ's sacrifice only temporarily or possibly appease God's wrath, pending our response? Do we have a part in appeasing God's holy infinite wrath? God forbid! Or was it an eternal sacrifice which has eternally taken away God's wrath against us? Hebrews chapters 9-10 (especially 9:12, 14 and also 13:20) answer that question and tell us that it is an eternal sacrifice which has forever taken away our sins (the Scapegoat!). Is it Jesus' blood that takes away our sins, or is it Jesus' blood + our free choice?
Hebrews 9:12 says: "through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." Notice that it does not say, "having obtained a possible eternal redemption," but rather that He actually had "obtained eternal redemption" for us by His blood!
So, I've come to realize that the teaching of unlimited atonement (especially within the context of Arminian election) actually diminishes the value of the blood of Jesus, because in essence it is saying that the blood of Jesus alone was not able to actually satisfy God's wrath (actually propitiate our sins) and guarantee our salvation, but that our choice/faith must be added to Jesus' blood in order for His blood to have any power! Now I realize that most people who believe in unlimited atonement do not see it that way and are not intending to diminish Christ's sacrifice in any way--but the teaching itself does do that and is therefore, in my opinion, an erroneous teaching when it comes to the atonement of Christ. However, let me make clear that this is not an area that true Christians have to divide over. I also understand that it is usually very difficult for us formers to even consider the concept of Limited/Definite Atonement, having come from the background that we have.
Remember, though, that Definite Atonement does not deny that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for all--however, it is efficient only for believers. On this point, Arminians and Calvinists are agreed. The difference is in what makes His sacrifice efficient--is it our own human choice and willl, or God's purpose and will?
Soli Deo Gloria!
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on December 09, 2010) |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12078
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 8:48 pm: | |
Jeremy, the "sufficient for all, efficacious only for the elect" phrase completely sums it up in my mind. This phrase does not limit the power of Jesus' blood.
I have a good friend, a former Adventist, whose daughter is an unbeliever. One day a couple of years ago she was talking to me about her daughter. She was agonized over her, and she finally blurted out to me, "I pray for her all the time—but I don't know if she's even elected!"
That misunderstanding is exactly the sort of thing that leads people down the path of double predestination and the sense of hopelessness that there's no point in praying for the resistant.
Ultimately, we all have to trust the Lord Jesus with the salvation of one another. We simply can't know the end of another person's story; that is God's domain. But the fact is that we are called to be witnesses for Jesus and to make disciples. This command does not suggest we can take a fatalistic position and say, "God has already chosen those who will be saved; if they can't be saved by their own effort, they won't be saved by mine, either."
We are called to witness, to declare the truth, to proclaim the Lord Jesus, crucified, risen and reigning—and we are to call people to repentance. This reality in no way contradicts election. It doesn't mean we participate in saving people, nor does it mean a person's decision turns the key to salvation.
At the same time, we must obey the Lord's commands: believe, witness, make disciples, baptize. We are to teach, preach, evangelize, show hospitality, mercy, give liberally, and lead diligently.
There's really no point in sitting on top of this apparent mystery and spending our time trying to explain HOW these things work. I'm more and more convinced that the truth of God's word—the fact that we do not choose Him but He chooses us, the fact that we are expected to respond to Him with repentance and obedience—these things become more and more "clear" the more we submit to His word and surrender our ideas, dreams, and desires to Him.
The Holy Spirit makes Truth more and more real, more and more part of our worldview and rule for living. Election is more meaningful to me now than it was a few years ago. So is obedience to the Lord's commands. I am expected to submit myself to the whole word of God and accept His will and His reality as my own.
The fact of election is never intended to release us from our responsibility as sons and daughter of the Most High God to witness of Jesus and to pray for the salvation of those who are lost. God only knows how He will reach each one He reaches. We must trust Him and submit to His word.
Colleen |
Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2165
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| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 11:07 am: | |
"God positively or actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to insure their salvation. The rest of mankind God leaves to themselves. He does not create unbelief in their hearts. That unbelief is already there. He does not coerce them to sin. They sin by their own choices...The dreadful error of hyper-Calvinism is that it involves God in coercing sin. This does radical violence to the integrity of God's character...All that God has to do to harden people's hearts is to remove the restraints...It is not that God puts his hand on them to create fresh evil in their hearts; he merely removes his holy hand of restraint from them and lets them do their own will." [Excerpts from Dr. R. C. Sproul's classic book entitled Chosen by God, pp. 142,143,145,147,148]
Indeed, the accent and purpose of election is clearly based upon the work of God and not upon the works of man. Dr. Sproul adds: "Salvation in its fullest sense is the complete work of redemption that God accomplishes in us...God's choice of the elect is sovereign, but not arbitrary. All of God's decisions flow from his holy character. God simply chooses us according to the good pleasure of His will." I am most grateful that the gift of salvation does not ultimately depend upon the will of man. The apostle Paul concludes: "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy...So then he has mercy on whomever he wills,and he hardens whomever he wills" (Romans 9:16,18 ESV). This passage is the coup de grace to Arminianism. This is the Word of God that requires all Christians to cease and desist from views of predestination that make the ultimate decision for salvation rest in the fallen will of man. It's all about Him!
In awe of His saving grace,
Dennis Fischer |
Hec
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Username: Hec
Post Number: 1542
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 5:04 pm: | |
Jeremy,
quote:as Spurgeon liked to point out, especially with regard to all of those who had already died as lost souls before He came to earth and were already burning in Hell (Sheol/Hades), why would He atone for their sins? And how could He actually atone for their sins without them leaving Hades (or not going there in the first place!) and entering Paradise and receiving eternal life? If all of their sins are actually atoned for, propitiated, blotted out, gone--then how can they still justly be sent to Hell?
Maybe they are not burning in hell, but waiting for their eternal "reward" when Jesus comes.
quote:Is it Jesus' blood that takes away our sins, or is it Jesus' blood + our free choice?
I would think that it is Jesus blood alone. But are you saying that we don't need to accept the blood? Not that accepting the blood pays for any of our sins, but will we be born again, just because Jesus died for us even if we do not accept his sacrifice? So, does it make no difference if we accept his sacrifice or not?
quote:Remember, though, that Definite Atonement does not deny that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for all--however, it is efficient only for believers.
"Sufficient only for believers". Who are believers? Does who believe? Is it then necessary to believe? Would we call it Jesus plus believe, or would we call it Jesus plus nothing? Or believe does not add anything, it's just the means by which we accept the gift.
Dennis,
quote:"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy...So then he has mercy on whomever he wills,and he hardens whomever he wills" (Romans 9:16,18 ESV).
It doesn't matter how much human will or excertion is put forth, it depends only on God's mercy, but I have not heard anyone ever, in the Bible or otherwise say that we can be saved without believing, or accepting Jesus. So while God provided for everyone, the whole world, only those who accept Him will be saved. Granted that the faith or desire to accept Him is also given by God, but God would not force anyone to accept Him.He gives the person the desire, but He also gives the person the prerogative to accept or deny.
Now, what am I talking about? I'm not theologian, or expert at anything, but I'm just saying what I thought as I read the posts above.
Hec |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3513
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 6:14 pm: | |
Hec,
quote:Maybe they are not burning in hell, but waiting for their eternal "reward" when Jesus comes.
Even if that were the case, my point would still remain:
"If all of their sins are actually atoned for, propitiated, blotted out, gone--then how can they still justly be sent to Hell?"
quote:I would think that it is Jesus blood alone. But are you saying that we don't need to accept the blood? Not that accepting the blood pays for any of our sins, but will we be born again, just because Jesus died for us even if we do not accept his sacrifice? So, does it make no difference if we accept his sacrifice or not?
Yes, we will be born again because Jesus died for us, and we also will receive Him and trust in His sacrifice for us, because He died for us. Faith is the tool which God uses to cause our rebirth and bring us to eternal life.
quote:"Sufficient only for believers". Who are believers? Does who believe? Is it then necessary to believe? Would we call it Jesus plus believe, or would we call it Jesus plus nothing? Or believe does not add anything, it's just the means by which we accept the gift.
Actually what I said was that His sacrifice is sufficient for all, efficient only for believers.
As I said in my previous post, Jesus' blood guarantees that we will believe. God gives faith to all those whose sins were atoned for by Christ on the cross.
"What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus."
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
[...]
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Romans 5:1, 8-10 NASB.)
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on December 10, 2010) |
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3514
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 6:26 pm: | |
Let me add verse 11 of the above passage:
"And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."
So we were indeed reconciled to God at the Cross, and we have now received that reconciliation through faith.
Jeremy |
Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2166
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| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 10:17 pm: | |
Hec,
You are absolutely correct in stating that the gift of belief or faith is essential for salvation. Since belief or faith is essential for salvation, God brings the elect to the point where they wholeheartedly agree with Him, desire Him, obey Him, praise Him, and worship Him (i.e., Paul on the road to Damascus, etc.). As also with Abraham, David, and the penitent thief, God's election is not dependent upon any human merit, but "God simply chooses us according to the good pleasure of His will" as Dr. Sproul indicated in my previous post today.
Thus, the saints wholeheartedly believe in Jesus Christ. God changes their "wanter" in the miracle of regeneration as the late Adrian Rogers used to say. God makes them willing to believe. On the other hand, the unregenerate have no desire for Jesus Christ. Salvation is completely God-centered and God-exalting. In other words, salvation is a rescue operation from start to finish. Moreover, God never goes on a rescue mission that fails. It's all about Him! To God alone belongs all the glory and praise for our salvation!
How would we like to have a neighbor living next door to us with a background like David had? Yet later, God called him a man after His own heart. David truly repented and asked God to "restore" to him the joy of His salvation (Ps. 51:12). Through it all, God never forsook David to the point of removing the indwelling Spirit from him (Ps. 51:11). The Holy Spirit prompted David to seek God's forgiveness when he prayed, "a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise (v. 17). Believers fall at times seriously and radically, but NEVER fully and finally. God's grace preserves them. What a wonderful assurance!
Dennis Fischer |
River
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Username: River
Post Number: 6975
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 6:29 am: | |
What amazes me most about what Dennis insists on trying to jump on this forum and teach, a concept within itself is just as wrong as some of what he came out of. is the fact that people come out of Adventism and land on whatever teaching makes them the most comfortable, and become just as entrenched in that as they were in Adventism.
I mean once they settle on something, whether it is Calvinism, Hyper Calvinism, Lutheran, Catholic, Independant or just whatever they land on, they become just as brittle, unyielding and hard as they were when they were Adventists.
I mean I very well understand how scary it is to have the rug jerked out from under you, I really do, because the Lord has given me the insight and the feeling of infirmity for the former Adventist and I fully do sympathize at least most of the time.
But what I fail to understand for the life of me is this hard brittle stubbornness that the former carries out of Adventism with them.
I mean, you would think that you of all people would have a teachable spirit. But I can't see any difference in trying to talk to this group as trying to talk with a hardline Adventist.
I mean, you get on here and talk around each other and talk over each other and nobody learns a darn thing because you are too stubborn, hard and brittle to learn. I just about as soon try to talk to a fence post at times.
You know what? It don't matter which of you is right or wrong, what matters is that you have a workable and teachable spirit so the Holy Spirit can reach you in the very depths of your heart.
He wants you to know him intimately, he already knows you intimately, he is all knowledge, he knows everything about you far more than you know yourself, and you can't know him without a teachable and yielding spirit.
Well...yall just go on ahead quoting scripture at each other,,,around each other,,,or what ever!
This stubborn and unyielding spirit that I have encountered on this forum reminds me of the gold and silver necklaces the children of Israel carried with them out of Egypt. I mean what did they need with gold and silver jewelry in a desert wilderness for anyhow, it just weighted them down, and they ended up beating it into a golden calf to worship, just like you end up beating the crap you carry out of Adventism into a golden theological calf.
River |
Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2167
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| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 8:27 am: | |
River,
Apparently, according to your rebuke, if we formers continued to teach and believe in Arminianism and/or semi-Pelagianism that Adventists and Catholics firmly hold unto, then we would be still on the right road. Personally, I didn't leave Adventism to teach the soteriological views of Adventism.
Dennis Fischer |
River
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Username: River
Post Number: 6978
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 9:48 am: | |
No Dennis, I didn't say that or mean that, you know what I said and what I meant, you aren't stupid so quit pretending like you misunderstood me.
Yall come on here and claim you value the truth, yet when someone tells you the truth you don't wanna hear it. Well good luck with that. |
Hec
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Username: Hec
Post Number: 1543
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 1:42 pm: | |
Yes, River, some of us do have a special kind of cement that hardens pretty quick. We leave SDA and instead of remaining teachable, we settle for some other doctrines that are not SDA and then defend them with the same strength we used to defend SDA. I'm trying to put a little more water on the cement so it won't hardens so fast. I can be as stubborn as anybody else, but I'm trying to keep my options open. Sometimes I do argue what seems to be a stubborn position, but it might just be that I don't get the new position yet, and I have to clean up all the loose ends before I adopt a different position. I'm not about to jump from the pan to the hot coals.
I do appreciate you trying to keep us grounded. I like to "argue" with people who are still open, people who may consider that they may be wrong and there is another truth. I came out of SDA where everybody knows the truth, even if they were opposing truth. There is one truth that I will not compromise: Jesus saved me. Anything else is icing on the cake and can have different flavors. It may give us more assurance or less, but I don't think that I'll ever become as hard headed as I was when SDA. There might be some doctrines that I am not accepting yet, like the eternal punishing, but it doesn't mean that I believe that the only truth is mine. I might be wrong, and you might be right on that, and the Spirit will reveal it at its proper time.
Hec |
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