| Author | Message | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 262 Registered: 5-2009 |
I'm reading a book (Take Back Your Life) about cults. It's about cults, in general, not about religious cults or SDA, specifically. It points out that cults deceive, manipulate, coerce, in order to persuade, attract, recruit, convert, retain and ultimately exploit people. Do you think Adventism exploits people? How? Besides the ponzi-scheme-type of financial system it employs, I'm not really sure what SDAs leaders have to gain by persuading, recruiting and coverting...I know what the Enemy's motives are though and I know he's behind it all. Have you ever felt exploited by the cult you were a part of? | ||
| Berit Registered user Username: Berit Post Number: 77 Registered: 7-2007 |
Sounds like an important book! Wow, you raise many good questiones and I feel I get pretty upset just thinking about the spiritual abuse going on in the sda church and which I also feel being a victim of.. In the church we were involved in, Ellen G. White was estimated very highly and I think the use of her can often be very manipulative. Both how other interpet and use her and how a devoted person read her - EGW is very very manipulative in many of her sayings. Having something to say about every aspect in life the devoted sda get their life pretty restricted. Our church were connected with a self-supporting group running a bible-scool, health centre, bakery etc. I now people there were exploited a lot. Young people being told they are working for God = accepting low payment and no pension. Ugh, many other stories can be told:-( Another manipulative aspect of adventism is how everything is centered around their paradigm, thus causing them to become narrow minded. And they certainly exploit people financially! Some friends of us had it financially very tight - the husband had to say no to many good job-offers because of working on sabbath. They had little in their fridge and of course no money to spare paying tihte. Church members suggested them to BORROW money in order to pay their tithe!!! In the church of my SIL it was encourrage to pay 10 % tithe, + some other x % to chuch school and other things = claiming almost 20% of the members monthly income!!! Much can be said and I look forward readig what the others will share! | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 177 Registered: 7-2010  |
I definitely believe that the SDA church exploits its members and employees. As a former SDA employee, when I was first employed by the conference, they automatically deducted 10% tithe from my paycheck. I didn't have the privilege of returning it myself which to me translated into them being more interested in my money more than they were interested in me having a 'personal' relationshp with God. It eventually stopped because it was illegal. I worked for a treasurer who helped the conference fill its coffers by deliberately not telling the pastors benefits that were due them. Workers' handbooks were always out of date and new workers sometimes didn't receive a handbook because 'we're working on an updated issue." When the pastors are ordained and if they are married, they are told that he and his wife are a team. She sacrifices and sacrifices but there's nothing in the conference budget to help her with entertaining, traveling, etc. When he is moved, consideratiom is not given to her career and her loss of money and tenure. Sometimes they are moved in the middle of the school year, which affects the children. If she makes a certain salary, the pastor's insurance will not cover her. When it comes to retiring, if they are both church employees and if they are under the NAD retirement plan, their years of service do not stand alone but are merged for a reduced retirement rate. Some conferences audit the workers' tithe to make sure it's being returned. If it isn't, they can be fired. Mind you that their prophetess says that the Sabbath and tithing is not reiterated in the New Testament but is assumed. The lay member cannot serve in a major office if he/she doesn't return tithe, etc. I could go on and on, not including the deliberate deceptions, racism and the Clear Word...... So suffice it to say that I believe the SDA church exploits. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 12033 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cloudwatcher, yes. I've experienced/observed many of the same things listed above. When I taught at Gem State Academy, I was part-time officially, but I taught full-time when we added in all the private lessons I taught. They considered the lessons "contract teaching" although they billed for them, but because I was part-time, I was not eligible for my own benefits. Moreover, because I was always there and married to a full-time faculty member, I had to serve all the regular rotations for supervision and other off-hour requirements, including sponsoring the yearbook—the equivalent of another class, but was considered "supervision" and completely unpaid. After the first couple of years I had a HUGE sophomore class, but I was only hired for two sections of English. I had between 35-40 kids in each section (regular class sizes were in the 20s). I was doing the work of half-time instead of one-third time, and I could not get the administration to give me an extra section. Why? They didn't want to pay me for half-time. Sometime toward the end of the first semester, the education superintendent from the Union Conference came to campus on his annual visit and sat in the classrooms of the "newer" teachers he hadn't observed previously. Afterward he spoke privately to me and asked if I had concerns. I told him how frustrated I was to have HUGE classes with some pretty unruly 15-year-old boys, to be doing the work for three sections, but that the school refused to divide my classes. Well, all thanks to God, when second semester started, I had a third section and was officially half-time. Sigh... So that was one time the exploitation was obstructed, but I still had to do full-time supervisions and sponsor the yearbook and do class sponsorhips for no pay... Colleen | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 263 Registered: 5-2009 |
I think I'm going to be sick to my stomach... Working in the HR office of Andrews University, I can tell you that the things you mention are standard operating procedure. (How many people did I help retire who were dismayed at the measly amount that they received in retirement in exchange for 40 years of service? How many did I hear say, in bewilderment, "well, it was for the Lord...") The little time we spent employed in a conference in California, I can tell you this is standard operating procedure... Having family who worked for the church for 20+years, I can tell you that this is standard operating procedure. I guess I never saw it as exploitation. But it most certainly is. It's interesting what happens when you begin to feel used by the church...you start feeling guilty for not being willing to sacrifice for "the work." You feel selfish. And it just occurred to me that God does not exploit or take advantage of us... | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3501 Registered: 10-2004  |
Absolutely, Cloudwatcher--Jesus said that "the laborer is worthy of his wages" (Luke 10:7 NASB). Jeremy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6932 Registered: 9-2006  |
More importantly, although I cannot speak about the ponzi schemes or other financial schemes which I have to take your word for, and I do, the Adventist has been exploited spiritually which takes a greater toll. The exploitation is a generational exploitation and continues on as I speak. It’s sort of like sticking a frog in a pan of water and slowly applying the heat, the frog does not realize he is being killed. I have never tried this, but for the sake of frogs, I don't suggest we do.  But the frog theory sounds reasonable, anyway, you get my meaning, I think the leaders have been so slowly indoctrinated they think what they are doing is OK. I do believe at some point in the Holy Spirits dealing with them, that some of them actually delivers themselves over to Satan for his free rein in order to obtain position, money, or in order to maintain position and (or) financial gain. I think I actually know such a man, and while I have been able to pray freely for some of my Adventist friends, I could not bring myself to pray for this man, I believe he may be already eternally lost. I hope that this isn't the case, but while I had the aid of the Holy Spirit to pray for some, when I tried to pray for him, I felt nothing. It’s really amazing to me for a person to come here and wonder if they have been exploited or not. You are third and fourth generation exploited. If seeds of weeds are sown in a field, nothing comes up but weeds. I mean if you sow weeds, it’s hardly reasonable to expect Yakima Apples is it? River | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 797 Registered: 10-2006 |
The whole evangelism program is set up to exploit people. The deceive you into believing their revelation seminars are endorsed by Christians of all denominations and that is is based on the Bible only. They love bomb people from the minute they walk in the door. They don't say up front that their goal is to get you to join your church and that there will be PRESSURE to be baptized (even if you have already been). They say their Bible studies are for all denominations - even though no denomination who knows of their content would ever endorse their use. They tell overt outright lies such as: 1. Desire of Ages is endorsed by the library of congress as being the most beautiful book ever written on the life of Christ. 2. The Waldenses were Sabbath keepers. 3. The little horn in Daniel 7 and 8 are the same powers despite no Biblical evidence that it could be true (and ample evidence that it is not). 4. That Steps to Christ is used in many denominations. (I have yet to see it in a church - and have visited many and asked if they have heard of or used it). 5. That pastors of many denominations just have never studied the Bible and just onto the Adventist bandwagon once they finally open up the Bible and read it. 6. That their is a denomination that has been chosen as the remnant church. 7. If you reject their message after having heard it presented and explained thoroughly during the prophecy seminar you will be lost. (This one was huge!) I could go on and on and on... I was loved intensely until church board members figured our that I would never be able to join the church. I then experienced hostility beyond belief. (I should have left, but truly loved the people and service. I was convinved that I would be lost if I left, but was being called "satan in the church", "a minister of satan" as well as so many other things.) The elders had two breaking sessions (as described in www.howcultswork.com) with me. In both instances I was completely unaware of any problems. The first one was when I showed up for a prophecy seminar and one of the elders was waiting for me at the door. He said, "We need to talk." I was ushered into a room where the head elder was sitting. I was then bombarded with accusations until I was sobbing like I hadn't since my dad died. I was sobbing when I left. Nobody cared. There was complete disregard for Matthew 18 in that church. I found out after the fact that the whole church knew it was going to happen that afternoon. (I was late that day for the seminar because of a previous engagement. They were waiting for me. It was awful. I have e-mails from the one of the elders that now amaze me. I was so worried about being a part of God's remnant church that I tolerated huge amounts of emotional, verbal and spiritual abuse. The head elder who was at one time one of my favorite teachers turned completely against me. My crime - I e-mailed the elders questions. They were at that time completely legitimate. I wanted to understand where my thinking was wrong. I truly wanted at that time to take the "Adventist truth" back to my old church. I actually had agreed to teach a class on Daniel at my old church so I could tell show them they were wrong. I was doing Adventist Bible studies using the Doug Bachelor Amazing Facts booklets and videos with 7 women from work and two nephews. How I praise God that He got me out of there. It was extremely painful, but I am so thankful for His work in my life. I've been told that Adventists are fearful and threatened by people who read and study inductively. I have experienced that first hand. They don't want questions - unless you love and embrace their proof text answers and then quietly embrace everything else they have to say. That's how cults work Joyfulheart | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2010 |
Cloudwatcher when you mentioned the word sacrifice in your post and how the church can make you feel guilty, it reminded me of something I read the other mornng that resonated with my spirit.
The above was taken from a devotional book entitled Until Today by Iyanla Vanzant. When I was an SDA divorced and single parent, sometimes money was real tight and of course, I would feel guilty if I used my 'tithe' money or a portion of it to pay for a necessity. All I'd hear from the pulpit was if I weren't faithful, I'm cursed with a curse, etc. which made me feel worse. Now that I have studied and am a former, I've learned that God never asked me to take what He provided for my NEEDS to give back to Him to show that I trust Him or to prove to me that He can provide it AGAIN. Tithing never had anything to do with money, only food stuffs and animals. Also the Israelites gave from their INCREASE; 'every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd's rod will be holy unto the Lord. Lev. 27:32. Man turned God's Word around and requires the FIRST tenth. I think they are trying to use 'first fruits' to base how the unlawful act of tithing is to be calculated. First Fruits as used in the Bible was the offering of new grain to celebrate the beginning of the grain harvest in commemoration of Israel's entry into the Promised Land. It followed the Festival of Unleavened Bread. It wasn't a weekly or monthly event. The Bible asks me (as a Christian) to give of my means with a cheerful heart and He allows me to determine the amount I will give cheerfully be it to the church or to someone I feel has a need. Even today I am sometimes plagued with what I was taught as a child using the acronym J.O.Y, Jesus first, Others second and Yourself last. WRONG!!! We are to love others AS we love ourselves: Jesus first, Yourself second and Others third. I now see J.O.Y as a deceptive tool that was used to teach us how to exploit ourselves as well as how to allow others (namely the church) to exploit us. They take our time, our money, our contacts and whatever they can to further the program. And what's the result? Resentment and anger! Then they throw us away pronouncing us as lost if we dare disagree with their different gospel. Sorry if I kinda went off!!! Still working through some resentment and anger!!!!! | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 264 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi Pat, I was going to message you directly, but for the sake of those participating and lurking on this forum, I thought it best to say something on here... I would strongly caution you against any spiritual teaching from New Age books (A Course in Miracles) or its popular proponents (Iyanla Vanzant, Oprah, Rhonda Byrne, Michael Beckwith). | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 179 Registered: 7-2010 |
Thanks for the heads up. I thought something wasn't quite right when Iyanla never quotes Scripture and sometimes refer to God as She/He. Believe it or not, I was introduced to her during worship at the conference office about ten years ago. A worker brought it in and used it for a while and I ended up purchasing it. I recently rediscovered it in some packed away books. I know about Oprah and will be on guard for the others. Thanks again. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2154 Registered: 4-2000  |
Patallen, It has been routine procedure (GC Working Policy) in SDA Conference circles to simultaneously audit the local church treasurer's records and any Conference workers who may be members of that local church. This is often done annually--especially on ministers without their knowledge. Auditing workers to determine their compliance to tithing is very easy since they know exactly what their income is. I remember having tithe automatically deducted from my fifty-five-cent-per-hour wage at Sheyenne River Academy (now Dakota Adventist Academy). I was brainwashed into thinking that I didn't want anyone on campus to think I had robbed God by not tithing. My roommate would have known about it if I hadn't paid tithe because he worked in the office. Teenagers are known to be very concerned what their peers think of them. I never received the balance in actual money because the whole amount was applied to my school account. It was akin to tithing at a rate of 100 per cent. It required alot of hard work, on my part, for a ridiculous low wage. Oh well, Adventist employers are notorious for being on the cheap side. When traveling on official church business, I was told to tip only enough to get by. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3502 Registered: 10-2004 |
I thought I should also add that the book A Course in Miracles, which Iyanla Vanzant quoted from, is especially dangerous, as it was actually dictated to Helen Schucman by a demon (an inner "Voice," claimed by Schucman to be "Jesus"). (EGW anyone?!) Jeremy | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2010  |
To Jeremy's example about the similarity in inspiration between Helen Schucman and EGW, how is it that SDAs do point out that they have a later day prophet. However they have not an "even later day" prophet beyond EGW? The argument to support EGW could be applied to the rising of even more recent prophets in the SDA Church, I don't think there was anything precluding more from appearing. It was my understanding from reading D.M. Canright's writings that even during EGW's time there were other SDA women that claimed to have similar visions and messages but they were largely ignored. I assume it was because James White was to going to have anyone upstart or threaten his corner on the market. I am curious is there a reason the SDAs believe their prophetic gift had to end with EGW? | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 159 Registered: 7-2010  |
Wiredog, It is not the official answer, but... I once heard a SDA pastor say that he had met someone who claimed to have the gift of prophecy to which he responded that the church wasn't listening to the prophet they already had (EGW) so why would God send another? That was his take on why there were no prophets past EGW. Michael | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1521 Registered: 3-2009 |
But isn't that what God did in the past? When Israel did not listen to a prophet God would send another, and then another, finally He sent His Son and they did not listen to Him either. Hec | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8803 Registered: 3-2004  |
And according to the NT Jesus Christ, the son. was the last one sent and He was rejected and killed. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1543 Registered: 7-2007 |
I agree, Flyinglady Hebrews 1:1,2 "God, Who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son..." (Also see Matt. 11:13 & Luke 16:16... "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.") Now as for myself, I never felt exploited. I believed that I was in the One True Church when I was an SDA. I worked for awhile at Harris Pine Mills in Pendleton, OR. They paid workers a very low wage so that they could send money to the mission field. I didn't mind it for myself and it in no way shook my faith in the SDA church, but I felt that the SDA church was making a mistake in paying such low wages that workers couldn't afford to send their children to SDA church schools. Even more than that was the impact on the community. Of the 500 or so workers, half or so were not Adventists and I felt that the low wages were a poor testimony for the SDA church for the non-SDA families. Again, I was NOT shaken in my belief that the SDA church was the One True Church. It wasn't until over thirty years later and it took a series of miracles by God to open my eyes! | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 251 Registered: 2-2008 |
I searched harris pine mills, and came up with this, http://advmca.org/ Chris | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2320 Registered: 5-2007  |
Chris, There is an online book titled ‘Collision Course’ by Vance Ferrell that covers the Harris Pine Mills story, among other things. You can download the book for free if you do a Google search with this line: Collision Course by Vance Ferrell About the third hit will have this title: [PDF] Collision Course.pmd When you click on the link it will automatically download the file to your computer. PS I have an aunt and uncle, still SDA, who worked at the Pendleton site up until the day it closed without any warning. Something they are very bitter about. PPS It is claimed, although I haven't found ironclad proof, that I am related to Clyde Harris who was the original owner of Harris Pine Mills. His line and mine both go back to the same time period and area of Wisconsin. Fearless Phil |
