| Author |
Message |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2143
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 10:35 am: |     |
A two-phase second coming of Christ is foreign to Scripture unless you use a proof-text method which makes even slavery sound somewhat biblical. Moreover, the Church Fathers and the Reformers knew nothing of such a theory. It does not appear in any of the early Confessions or Creeds. Thus, for 1800 long years, biblical Christianity was completely unaware of such a teaching. The rapture idea by Margaret MacDonald (Scottish teenage visionary) and John Darby (traveling evangelist) was part of the Restoration Movement in the nineteenth century which also included Seventh-day Adventism, Mormonism, and an explosion of other heresies that exist to this very day. Like with Adventism, the exponents of the rapture view have largely succeeded in re-writing their negative history. The sad truth is that former Adventists are often deceived more than once.
The nineteenth-century was a notorious minefield for sensational heresies. It is worthy to note that the vast majority of Christians today do not believe in the rapture theory. Those who greatly treasure life feel it is important to find out if the pilot is a rapture-believing Christian before booking any airline reservations. Apparently, a confirmed atheist pilot would be ideal for airline safety to avoid any sudden rapture while in flight. Still others try to console us that their cars will actually self-destruct if raptured while driving. The accompanying teachings of the rapture view are equally foreign to Scripture (e.g., the restoration of the Jewish temple services, etc.) that contradict the New Covenant teachings of Jesus Christ.
Dennis Fischer |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 920
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 12:21 pm: | |
weird... Pat's post about the 10C's had appeared on this thread when I saw it... now her post is gone and I can't delete mine! sorry... my last post makes no sense on this thread... I will repost on her new thread.
vivian |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1504
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 1:07 pm: | |
Dennis says:
quote:The rapture idea by Margaret MacDonald (Scottish teenage visionary) and John Darby (traveling evangelist) was part of the Restoration Movement in the nineteenth century which also included Seventh-day Adventism, Mormonism, and an explosion of other heresies that exist to this very day.
Are you saying that the Restoration Movement is heresy? Like the Christian Churches and the Churches of Christ? Would you expand on that?
Hec |
Cloudy
Registered user
Username: Cloudy
Post Number: 144
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 1:34 pm: | |
Wiredog, the other side of this coin is that sda'a are prone to deny that they believe the fundamental sda beliefs. Such as, insisting that since EGW didn't specifically claim to be a prophet, she shouldn't be tested as a prophet. |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 682
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 2:15 pm: | |
1. "Satan sent false prophets Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, and Charles Taze Russell to distract people from true prophet Ellen White".
2. "Anybody who won't give God 1/10th of their income and 1/7th of their time isn't worth the space of a church pew".
3. "You worship God YOUR way and I'll worship God HIS way".
4. "If the Sabbath was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me."
5. "Calling Ellen White a false prophet is blasphemy against the Spirit of prophecy, which is the only sin God can't forgive." |
Wiredog
Registered user
Username: Wiredog
Post Number: 31
Registered: 8-2010
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 2:18 pm: | |
@ Cloudy LOL I am having that very discussion on my fB Page with some of my SDA HS classmates.
@ Dljc, Believer247. I always heard the term "transformation" in lieu of rapture in Adventist circles. (Rapture/transformation occurs at the Blessed Hope/Second Coming)
I beleve Adventist say Christians use of Luke 17:34-35 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 somehow implies a "secret" reapture. I read rapture as simply meaning "sntched or caught-up" describing what occurs at the blessed-hope.
Granted that even in SDA circles how one understands the "transformation" is not a salvific issue. . . .perhaps unless you use the term "rapture". |
Wiredog
Registered user
Username: Wiredog
Post Number: 32
Registered: 8-2010
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 2:19 pm: | |
Ahh Freeatlast I love it! Yes I recall those ;) |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 683
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 2:25 pm: | |
The last 3 were from my immediate family.
Two more:
6. "We have a responsibility before God not to baptize into membership anybody who isn't willing to repent of smoking and drinking. They can go get baptized in a church with lower standards than God's."
7. "You can't be baptized in THIS church with your wedding ring on." |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3492
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 4:28 pm: | |
River,
Adventism teaches that there will be what could be described as a "rapture" at the same time as the Second Coming (post-trib) when "every eye shall see Him." But they absolutely hate the term "rapture" and refuse to call it that. They simply call it the "Second Coming" or the second Advent, or being "translated" instead of being "raptured." Whenever they speak of "the Rapture" or "the Secret Rapture" they are referring to the pre-trib rapture teaching (or perhaps to any teaching of a rapture taking place before the Second Coming).
The reason that they derisively call it a "secret" rapture is because they believe that it is a denial of the verse which says "every eye shall see Him." They don't understand that those who believe in a pre-trib rapture believe that that verse applies to the Second Coming at the end of the tribulation. I think SDAs usually believe that adherents of the pre-trib rapture actually call it "the Secret Rapture" themselves!
The term "secret rapture" is sometimes used by non-SDAs also, though, when opposing the pre-trib teaching. I don't know where the term originated.
Jeremy |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 773
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 5:41 pm: | |
quote:...John Darby (traveling evangelist) was part of the Restoration Movement...
Just ask the (Open) Plymouth Brethren about John Darby. The guy was a cantankerous old goat, always creating trouble and trying to divide believers on entirely non-essential issues. "By their fruits..."
From Wikipedia:
quote:Darby resigned his curacy in protest. Soon after, in October 1827, he fell from a horse and was seriously injured. He later stated that it was during this time that he began to believe that the "kingdom" described in the Book of Isaiah and elsewhere in the Old Testament was entirely different from the Christian church.
Sounds a lot like some girl I heard of who took a rock to the head and started claiming she was God's messenger.
(Message edited by bskillet on November 19, 2010) |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6910
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 5:49 pm: | |
Thanks for the info Jeremy, the word rapture is taken from 1 cor.4:14-18 as to its teachings and general understanding among Bible scholars.
Unlike Fischer's claim that it is proof texting and heresy Paul implores us to comfort one another with these words.
And it is a comfort when you see a Christian mother, father or brother/sister laying in a coffin.
I just don't see how it can be misinterpreted or made to mean anything else accept what it plainly says.
Paul makes the claim that this is by the word of the Lord, so a person can believe what he said or scoff at it, personly I just believe believe my bible for how it reads. I guess there are many who just have to make a thing complicated or they are not happy (Probably ain't happy people anyhow)
They make salvation complicated even, instead of drawing comfort from Gods word. Gods word should be a comfort to those who love him and trust him.
Go figure!
River |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 1163
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 6:45 pm: | |
River, I think you mean 1 Thess. 4:14-18  . Those verses are simply about the second coming which includes the resurrection and that we'll always be with the Lord. All end-time viewpoints believe that (except maybe full preterists). There aren't enough details on those verses to get much of a timeline from it, although the way I read it I see it happening all at one time. |
Wiredog
Registered user
Username: Wiredog
Post Number: 35
Registered: 8-2010
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 7:05 pm: | |
Jeremy! Thanks for the post. I definitely messed up the word. It's not "transformation" its TRANSLATED. I'm glad to see I am forgetting some of the stuff already.
Next thing you'll catch me saying ad-VEN-tist as opposed to AD-ventist ;)
Ben |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6912
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 19, 2010 - 10:32 pm: | |
Yeah Raven, 1 Thes, not 1 Cor. Anyhoo, catching away, rapture, poof!
Also 1 Cor 15: 51-58. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2144
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 9:34 am: | |
Hec,
The Restorationist Movement largely denied being authentic Protestants; instead they were trying to reform or complete the Reformation truths (i.e., Seventh-day Adventism falsely claiming to be the "final link" of the Protestant Reformation while denying Sola Scriptura by the use of extrabiblical revelations, Mormonism clearly and honestly stating that they are not Protestants) et cetera.
The Restorationists took great pride in trying to emulate the early church and thereby bypassing the Protestant Reformation. The Stone and Campbell movements united in 1832 with a handshake. The Restorationists were a very diverse group which included handling snakes, ecstatic dancing or shaking (Shakers with Mother Ann Lee), putting hands and limbs in a blazing fire, speaking in unknown tongues, visioning, married men and women could not sleep together in Shaker communes where many desperate Millerites took refuge to avoid starvation and/or serious privation, no musical instruments in some Churches of Christ because of no NT mandate, drinking poison, basic universalism as in Armstrongism where ultimately everyone will be saved, the very liberal Christian Connexion Church (forerunner of the Disciples of Christ) brought Arianism and soul sleep into Adventism by Joseph Bates and James White, the new Community of Christ (formerly the Reorganized Mormons in Missouri), etc. The Stone-Campbell Movement began on the American frontier during the Second Great Awakening of the early 19th century.
All in all, the Stone-Campbell Movement or Restorationist Movement was not based upon the Scriptural truths of the Protestant Reformation but rather in bypassing it. Perfectionism (legalism) was a common thread in these various groups that had methodological disputes (i.e., denying the need for multiple cups in communion), etc. For example, I grew up in a Seventh-day Adventist Church where they believed in only one cup or glass of grape juice for the men and one for the women during communion (based on Jesus' literal statement saying "cup" not a plural designation of "cups"). Obviously, with this methodology, participants in communion were exposed to less germs if they sat in the front row of pews (smile). This was easily administered because the women sat on the left side of the aisle and the men sat on the right side of the aisle (European style). They felt is was sacrilegious to sit with your spouse during a worship service (akin to the later rule of allowing unmarried couples to sit together only in Sabbath School but not during the worship service in SDA colleges). Legalism is never consistent.
Dennis Fischer |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2145
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 11:11 am: | |
The reason that the rapture theory has come to be known as the "secret rapture" is because it is not visible to all (part of a two-phase occurrence). Proponents of the secret rapture (first phase) do not deny its non-public, non-visible aspect. Thus, it is truly a "secret" (hidden or concealed) private event.
Dennis Fischer |
Rossbondreturns
Registered user
Username: Rossbondreturns
Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2009
| | Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 11:31 am: | |
I'd come to the point where I'd figured that The Rapture was hidden from their eyes in the text because their eyes were veiled.
However the Bible clearly says that we shouldn't be caught unprepared.
Just as clearly as it points to Christ coming at a time when no one expects Him.
Once things start happening the Antichrist etc...it can no longer be unexpected. You can quite literally know the day and the hour of his Second Coming.
Therefore those passages refering to the day / the hour being unknown must refer to the rapture which God tells us to live as if it's going to happen at any second.
Spock has spoken. ;) |
Jody
Registered user
Username: Jody
Post Number: 97
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 4:47 pm: | |
Adventists do believe in a "rapture" but like previously stated they do not like to call it so. Some will say that since the word rapture does not appear in the Bible it cant be true. However this type of reasoning does not make sense because neither is the word Trinity.
The word rapture simply means taken up.
Adventists believe that they will be taken up for 1000 years and then return with Christ again for the final judgement of the wicked. Dispensationalists on the other hand believe they will be taken up for a 7 yr period and then return with Christ.
Personally i dont see a 7 yr or 1000 year separation between the two judgements.
And yes I def agree with Dennis on everything he said about Restorationists and all the other fairy tales that were made up in the 1800's in the name of Christianity.
Just my 2 cents worth
Jody |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12006
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 7:14 pm: | |
Actually, Dennis, it depends upon whom you ask. Classic dispensationalists may believe in a "secret" rapture, but classic dispensationalism has been pretty widely refuted. I'm sure there still are classic dispensationalists around, but I don't personally know any.
Those whom I've heard defending a pre-tribulation rapture use 1 Thess 4:14 as one of their descriptive texts. There's nothing secret about Jesus returning with the sound of a trumpet, a loud cry, and angels.
We can't dismiss "dispensationalism" without defining it. Modified dispensationalism is significantly different from classic dispensationalism.
Colleen |
Jody
Registered user
Username: Jody
Post Number: 99
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 4:19 pm: | |
Just wondering if Tim LaHaye is considered a Classic Dispensationalist? If so there are still lots of Classic Dispensationalists around.
I know people who read those books cover to cover and base their eschatology on them completely. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 12011
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 8:08 pm: | |
Don't know, Jody, as I haven't read his books. I know I have issues with the one or two movies I've seen based on his books.
Colleen |
