| Author | Message | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 705 Registered: 11-2007 |
"For this reason the Jewish leaders were trying even harder to kill him, because not only was he BREAKING THE SABBATH, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God." John 5:18 NIV How come Christ gets away with breaking the sabbath commandment but still lived without sinning? Anyone want to take a stab at this one? Surfy | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1496 Registered: 3-2009 |
How about MK. 2:28? Hec | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 189 Registered: 7-2010 |
He didn't break the Sabbath. He broke man's laws concerning the Sabbath. At least that's what my SDA friend tells me. The key is in the preceding verse: 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” Now compare it to the Commandment in question. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:8-11) Hmmm, looks like Jesus broke the sabbath having worked on that day and even admitting He did. It wasn't about man's law concerning the Sabbath. That is if Jesus were just a man. But as Hec has pointed out, Mark 2:28 says Jesus is also Lord of the sabbath. The problem is the Jews and the "sabbath keepers" never have figured this one out. It's not about a day, it's about the One Who made the day. This is the day the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it. Psalm 118:24 It's never been about a day, it's always been about spending time with Him. (Message edited by dljc on November 14, 2010) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1497 Registered: 3-2009 |
I’ve been thinking about this question. I’m not a theologian by any means and probably have no right to be putting my two cents in this, but let me just throw out there what I thought and you let me know if it makes any sense. “Sin is the transgression of the law.” 1Jn 3:4. What law? The Sinai law? It seems to me that it could not be the Sinai law because that law was given only to the Jews. If it were that law, then only the Jews could sin because it was not given to anyone else. So there has to be another law which is universal. A law that whoever transgresses it sins. Be it Jew or gentile. Therefore to break the Jewish law would not necessarily be sin unless it is part of the universal law. It seems as the 10C contains part of the universal law, which would be sin to break, and part of the Jewish law which would not be sin to break. It would be disobedience to that law but not sin. Jesus is clearly breaking the Sabbath in John 5. But because the Sabbath is part of the law which was only given to the Jews and not part of the universal law, He was not sinning. He might have been disobeying the Jewish law but not the universal law. What do you think? Hec | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11975 Registered: 12-2003  |
The Sabbath always pointed toward resting in Jesus' finished work, ushering back in the rest of God's finished work at creation and realizing the fulfillment of celebration for being freed from slavery. The Sabbath foreshadowed Jesus just as did the rules forbidding touching dead bodies, ceremonial temple washings after touching lepers, etc. Jesus came and systematically "broke" all those ceremonial requirements because He was their fulfillment. Jesus touched the dead; touched lepers, raised and healed them—bringing freedom and healing to permanently non-functional people (cripple, man with withered hand, etc) on the Sabbath. His doing these things were signs that He was the Messiah. His standing up at the last day of The Feast in John 7, when He cried out, "He who believes in me will have springs of living water flow out from Him" was fulfilling the ceremony always performed at that feast. The ceremony was this: the priests would take pitchers of water from the Pool of Siloam and pour it out by the alter, symbolizing the water that flowed from the rock when Moses struck it--symbolizing the water of God's provision for the life of the people. For Jesus to stand up and cry out that He was she Source of living water was to blatantly equate Himself with the God's Living Water, the miraculous provision and fulfillment of the shadow of God's "water" from the earliest days of the nation. Jesus "broke" the Sabbath because He was the fulfillment of the Sabbath. People were to come unto Him for rest (Matt 11:28). Jesus could break the Sabbath because He is greater than the Sabbath. He's its creator; He's not under the Sabbath law's "requirement". Colleen (Message edited by Colleentinker on November 15, 2010) | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2010  |
I have had this in the back of my mind but have not been able to dig up the verses to Scripturally back it up or debunk it. Hec you reference "the universal law" which I have been equating as The Divine Law, or as Jesus said in both Mt. 22:34-40 and also Mk. 12:28-34-- (i) HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' (essentially this is the beginning of the Shema from Deut 6:4) (ii) YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. I believe THIS is the law that was in existence from the beginning of creation not the 10 Commandmants. Hence THIS is how Satan, Adam & Eve were convicted of sin,-- Satan sinned for he loved himself over God Eve broke the 1st Commandmant; she desired the forbidden fruit over her obedience to God and Adam the 2nd in accusing Eve and blaming Eve. It is-- -what Jesus taught and -is what the Christians (i.e., Gentiles are accountable to) and -what we will be governed by in Heaven. -This is the PERFECT Law and what is a reflection of God's Character, and what the Holy Spirit will place in our hearts, NOT the Jewish 613 Mitzvot of which the 10 Commandments is part. To me these things clearly show there is a Law that existed even before the Garden. My challenge is I have not been able to effectively synthesize the idea assuming Scripture teaches this and it is not heresy as I don't have the luxury of having been "shewn";) Jesus did not sin as HE DID NOT break The Divine Law! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3481 Registered: 10-2004  |
So Jesus was born under the Law, and He did keep it perfectly--He could do no other as He was the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. I do not believe that Jesus broke the Law of Moses at all. However, there were times when, in order to keep the Law as a whole, one of the mitzvot (commandments) had to be broken. For example, the command to circumcise on the eighth day trumped the command to keep the sabbath day (clearly showing that the sabbath was not a moral law). Jesus said: "If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?" (John 7:23 NASB.) Notice that the Law of Moses as a whole is not broken, even though the Sabbath is broken, due to circumcision being more important. Jesus is also saying that loving your neighbor trumps the Sabbath as well (thus, explaining His breaking the Sabbath). Thus, in order to not break the Law, certain commands in the Law had to be broken at times. Jesus also said: "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?" (Matthew 12:5 NASB.) Notice that Jesus does not say that the priests didn't really "break" the Sabbath--He says explicitly that they "break the Sabbath", and yet are innocent. In order to keep the Law of Moses, the priests must break the Sabbath. And He used that example to defend His own disciples breaking the Sabbath. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on November 15, 2010) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1501 Registered: 3-2009 |
The end justifies the means? Hec | ||
| Wiredog Registered user Username: Wiredog Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2010 |
Isn't this where Adventists pull out the, "it's ok because it is doing good on the Sabbath" card, hence it's not wrong? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11979 Registered: 12-2003 |
Essentially, Jesus was saying (as in Matthew 12 when he defended the disciples plucking grain and referred the Pharisees to David eating the shewbread) that God's anointing trumps the written law. Since the law and the prophets were foreshadowing Jesus, He Himself was greater than the written law. When David ate that shewbread with his men, he was already anointed king over Israel by God's command to Samuel—but his anointing was not yet public; Saul was still king. But David was God's anointed and a type of Christ. Moreover, the need of his men—as well as of Jesus' disciples—was a higher "good" than the literal word of the Mosaic law. If the Sabbath really were the over-arching holy THING we learned it was, there could be no higher moral law to be served by breaking it, as Jeremy pointed out. Jesus is the One to whom all the Mosaic shadows pointed. He Himself is greater than the written law; God Himself IS the law of all creation. In Jesus all things hold together (Col 1:17). He fulfilled the Sabbath shadow. Colleen | ||
| Paulcross Registered user Username: Paulcross Post Number: 107 Registered: 4-2005 |
Surfy, One of the pieces that helps me resolve this is the passage in Galatians 3. The Law (and the whole role of “law keeping”) was a late addition to keep before man the sum of his own sinfulness and the overwhelming gap between man and God. Man saw this law giving as the appropriate time to prove himself “fit to save” by perfect law-keeping but it was doomed to failure. (Galatians refers to the hopelessness of keeping the Law - See Galatians 3:10 & 6:13) This “law” was designed to be a temporary implementation UNTIL Jesus (the promised one) came. Galatians 3:17, 19. At that point the role of the Law was finished and the provision of Christ was fully in place and so Jesus would say, “It is finished!” Jesus arrived on the earth and ended the role and purpose of the Law. Jesus could not be judged by the law-ish standards of righteousness because He was the beginning of a better mode of righteousness (by faith – Galatians 2:23. Before Jesus people were locked up by the law but with the arrival of Jesus the law ceased to define holiness and righteousness). Under Jesus’ “watch” the presence of the Spirit in the individual determines and creates and defines righteousness. (Galatians 5:16, 22-25). Jesus could only be judged as a Sabbath Breaker if the system of “law keeping for righteousness” was the prevailing standard. Jesus was the vanguard of Spirit defined living. (Gal 5 and John 3) To my understanding Jesus must be judged as sinless because repeated evidence from the Gospels show Jesus consulting or obeying or being defined by such things as “my Father’s business”, “not my will but yours…”, or “the Spirit compelled Him to go to the wilderness”… and so no… It seems to me that we need to look at Jesus life under the new covenant framework. Other comments here may be more helpful or honest to the text. Paul Cross | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 207 Registered: 9-2006 |
Very well said, Paul. Jesus could not be held as captive under any of the written codes of Sinai any more than He could be held down by the law of gravity at His ascension. He is the Author of all laws, and He can elevate or dispense with any law as He wishes. If He cannot restate or change any particular commandment, He cannot restate or change any of them. He is Lord of all laws, or He is Lord of none. Martin C | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6900 Registered: 9-2006  |
It is absolutely insane thinking to think that God could sin against himself, but you can take what-ifs to the far limits of speculation. Such as, what if he could? our universe would probably immediately start decaying,and man would be wiped out in no time at all. Now we think we have life in heaven (saved people, but what if there are other God's out there, and our God fights with another God and loses, what will happen to us? If you were able to hang out in space between the stars without a base of reference such as a ship, you would go immediately and hopelessly insane because of the distances. God is our base reference, our place to stand and to keep our sanity, we can flee to that cross, our base of reference and feel safe in a world that is going berserk, and becoming unsafer by the day. God is the only God we have or will ever have, I for one, just cannot see the usefulness of the question. I am convinced Adventists are a little insane, because in their doctrine you can't find a place to put your feet, it is a place where no equilibrium exists. Looking back, don't it kind of make you all queasy and sick to your stomach? | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1050 Registered: 7-2005  |
I once read this verse to my very devoted SDA husband and he said to me, "No one is going to tell me that Jesus broke the sabbath!" I replied, but it says it right there in black and white that Jesus broke the sabbath! He just walked away into another room and we have not discussed it since. If the sabbath was the sign of the covenant, then for Jesus to end the covenant, the sign had to be nullified. I believe the Lawgiver (Christ) set up the sabbath law just so He could obliterate the covenant Himself by breaking the sign of the covenant. It's like He turned on a giant laser beam on Sinai that shot through time for 430 years. Then He stepped into the trajectory of the beam, on purpose, which He knew would result in His death. I think it's worth noting that John wrote that Jesus broke the sabbath. He could have written, "Men SAID he broke the sabbath." But he stated it as an unquestioned fact - Jesus BROKE the sabbath. If that doesn't fit our theology, we need to reject our theology, not the words of the Bible. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1051 Registered: 7-2005 |
I also think it's worth noting the second half of this verse. Jesus made himself equal with God. John didn't write, "Jesus tried to make himself equal with God." No. He wrote,"Jesus made himself equal with God. For these two inseperable reasons, breaking the sabbath and making himself equal with God, Jesus was put to death. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11983 Registered: 12-2003 |
Good point, HonestWitness. Colleen | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 706 Registered: 11-2007 |
Lots of thoughts here. I'm having a problem with the one that says that Jesus is God and therefore He can do whatever He wants. Even sin. Jesus definitely broke the OT Sabbath. Of that there is no doubt. The only way out is that the OT Sabbath was no longer a sin, otherwise Jesus would have sinned. It makes me think that Jesus was living in the new covenant and that the new covenant didn't begin with His death, it began with His birth. Surfy | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 1052 Registered: 7-2005 |
I could agree that the new covenant began with Jesus birth, in essence. However, I think the new covenant began, in demonstration, the first time Jesus broke the sabbath. Then, Jesus death sealed the death of the old covenant and his resurrection began the implementation of the new covenant for believers. I guess what I'm saying is that the transition from old to new took place over a period of time, but Jesus was definitely the pivot point. | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 192 Registered: 7-2010 |
I would like to offer this to the conversation. This phrase is something that came to me when I was studying for the message/sermon I gave on "The Truth vs. Bondage". I've posted the notes from that sermon on here before. I'll include them again in this, since I'm referencing to it.  Here's the phrase/comment: "The Scribes and Pharisees couldn’t put Him under bondage, because Jesus being God knew what He meant when He gave Moses and the Prophets the law." What I'd like to offer for consideration is this. Look at what we're doing. Were discussing the difference in what we "believe" Scriptures are saying. Just as the SDA's do and with us. Now think about that phrase/comment. Jesus knew exactly what He meant when He gave the law to Moses and the prophets. The "Law Giver" knows the intent of the "law", the "interpreter of the law" may have an agenda and is looking for a loophole. We see this time and time again even today with the different rules and regulations that come about through legislation. It's the interpretation of the law that gets us into trouble, but also if we have an agenda, we will be looking for a loophole around the law in question. Jesus didn't have to look for loopholes, He knew exactly what He meant, but more importantly, whether or not the law applies to Him. Take this into consideration. Did the laws of physics apply in turning water to wine? Did they apply in the feeding of the thousands with just a few fishes and loaves of bread? What about walking on water? I think it's safe to say that the laws of physics didn't apply to Jesus. Jesus is holy and perfect, and exhibited the fruit of the Spirit all the time, which we know what Paul wrote at the end of Galatians 5:23 "against such there is no law." Sermon mentioned in above: The Truth vs. Bondage John 8:30-59 Sunday Nov 16, 2008 What is bondage? Bondage: 1. Slavery or involuntary servitude. 2. The state of being bound by or subjected to some external power or control. Denial: 1. Refusal to recognize or acknowledge. 2. Psychology. An unconscious defense mechanism used to reduce anxiety by denying thoughts, feelings, or facts that are consciously intolerable. Spoil: 1. To impair, damage, or harm the character or nature of (someone) by unwise treatment, excessive indulgence, etc.: to spoil a child by pampering him. Guilt: Definition: to make someone feel guilty, esp. in hopes of getting them to do something Example: He guilted her into calling her mother-in-law. Gossip: 1. Idle talk or rumor, esp. about the personal or private affairs of others. {Gossip is like “Illegally obtained information”}. Burden: 1. Something that is carried. 1. Something that is emotionally difficult to bear. 2. A source of great worry or stress; weight: Fear: A distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid. These are just a few of the bondages we can either be under or put someone under. ___________________________________________________ What is the Truth? Jesus came to set us free from the bondages of this world through men and Satan. Jesus said in Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, If we were not captives, why would Jesus need to preach deliverance to the captives? Not only were the Pharisees and Scribes captive, they placed heavy burdens on the people to keep them in captivity as well! That’s what bondage is. We want people to share in our misery don’t we? Captive: A person who is enslaved or dominated; slave: He is the captive of his own fears. Just like the Scribes and Pharisees, we don’t always realize we’re under bondage, do we? When I worked in Animal Control I had a unique responsibility that comes with that job. That was, putting the animals to sleep. This put a heavy burden on me, and satan used this to keep me bound through guilt. I was just doing that part of my job, but because of it, satan had me convinced that God could never forgive me for those things I did. When that burden was lifted from me, I felt a freedom that I never knew before. Jesus took this burden back, because He had already paid for it. It wasn’t mine to carry. All the doctors I had talked to, all the people who had tried to help me were to no avail. Only Jesus could lift this burden from me and set me free. I had become brokenhearted, and was in need of deliverance from this burden that held me captive. The Scribes and Pharisees were under bondage and they wanted to bring Jesus under that bondage, just as they had the Jews. Jesus telling them their father was the devil didn’t help matters much did it (John 8:44)? That doesn’t sound like love does it? If I said to someone that his or her father was the devil I would imagine I’d get the same reaction Jesus got. The Scribes and Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus, remember? Bondage comes in many forms both in the physical world and in the spiritual world. Through our words and actions we can put each other under bondage. Many times that’s because we are still under bondage. If I’m still under bondage I can’t help any of you can I? I’m trapped too. How can I help anyone if I’m in the same trap? That’s why we needed a Savior. I can only introduce you to Him, it’s Him who heals your heart, and sets you free, not me. Only He can open your eyes to the Truth. Jesus is the only one who can save us from ourselves. He is the only one who can set us free. He is the way the truth and the life. Jesus is the only way out of that trap! The Bible is what we believe to be the Word of God. It doesn’t contradict itself, because God doesn’t contradict Himself. Men have used it to place heavy burdens on other men. But the Truth is there if you are willing to look for it. The truth is, we were all born with a sinful nature, Jesus is the only One who ever lived a sinless life on this planet. If we are to be Christlike, then doesn’t it make sense we’d want to know what that means? In Matthew 11 Jesus said 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Jesus knew the truth because He is the Truth. The Scribes and Pharisees couldn’t put Him under bondage, because Jesus being God knew what He meant when He gave Moses and the Prophets the law. The Scribes and the Pharisees had made a religion out of the law. Religion is man, serving man. Christianity is a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. The Pharisees were religious; they didn’t have a relationship with God. That’s what Jesus was telling them in John 8:42. The Pharisees wanted to see the people jumping through hoops to do what they wanted them to do. Jesus set us free from those hoops of men! Does this mean we don’t have to be obedient? No! We are called to be perfect and holy. Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians, this passage: 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Jesus made a simple request. “If ye love me, keep my commandments”. (John 14:15) So the question we need to ask ourselves is, am I still under bondage or have I been set free? Jesus is the only one that can set us free. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11987 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great insights, Dljc. Surfy, think of Jesus breaking the Sabbath in the light of His breaking all the other "shadow" laws. The law was specific that one could not touch a leper without going to the temple for cleansing. Touching a dead body meant elaborate ritual cleansing. And so on. Jesus touched and healed lepers; there is no record of His going for cleansing, although he asked the leper to go show himself to the priest for a clean bill of health. Jesus touched dead bodies, raised them to life, and did not ritually cleanse. He broke the Sabbath law in the same way. He broke it by filling it full of meaning. When Jesus broke the "contagion" laws, he not only touched but also provided the healing/life/cleansing that the law demanded—in its full sense. He gave real healing and cleansing and life; He didn't just provide ritual cleansing. Same for the Sabbath. He demonstrated, as He broke the Sabbath, that He WAS rest. In Him was life, peace, relief from suffering, relief from oneself and one's brokenness. That completeness was what Sabbath always prefigured. It stood for the eternal rest of God's finished work. Jesus is the embodiment of God's finished work, and He delivers it to others as well. Similarly, Jesus never offered a sin sacrifice. He didn't sin. But, in a complete upending of the sacrificial liturgy, He personally became sin and died. He killed the unavoidable death sentence of sin. No Israelite was asked to die on the altar for sin. But Jesus gave His body—in a horrific sacrifice that was repugnant even to the Jews who lived in continual animal bloodshed. When He said, in John 7, that they were to eat His flesh and drink His blood and live, his ministry changed. Many who were following Him left, never to return. So many left, in fact, that Jesus asked his 12 disciples if they would also leave, and they answered, "To whom will we go?" Jesus turned upside-down every single law, including the Ten Commandments and moral precepts scattered throughout the Torah. He took them from the physical realm to the spiritual, and He filled the shadows full of meaning. In so doing, He Himself treated the laws foreshadowing Him differently from the way anyone else could treat them, because He was the realization of them. They pointed to Him; in order to honor them, He had to show that He was the One they stood for. They ended with Him. Colleen | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2310 Registered: 5-2007  |
In reviewing the postings in this thread there seems to be one critical point that hasn’t been brought out. The definition of ‘temptation’ has both an external meaning and an internal application. In our sinful fallen world, anyone has the potential to tempt anyone one else to do anything. For Satan to have externally tempted Jesus to sin is not the issue other than to point out that he was so foolish to tempt Jesus to do something he would not and could not do. As fallen sinful people, we sin for one reason only. Whether the source of the temptation is external or internal is not the reason we succumb to temptation. We sin because it is our fallen nature to sin. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. (James 1:14,15 ESV) These two verses clearly show that the issue is all about when we are “lured and enticed” by our own desire. For us this is the internal temptation that leads to death. Jesus, being fully God, has a perfect and holy nature which does not and cannot sin. Jesus cannot, did not and never will sin. With what Jesus did or did not do on the Sabbath, we must keep that foundation point in central view. If you are still a ‘Sabbath Keeper’ and read this, please prayerfully consider how Jesus could violate Mosaic Law and not sin. Fearless Phil |
