| Author |
Message |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3480
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 11:18 am: |     |
I think that some of the confusion here may be over the fact that the Bible describes two different types of sanctification for the believer--these are sometimes called "positional sanctification" and "practical sanctification."
1 Corinthians 6:11 is clearly describing our "positional sanctification"--we have been sanctified ("set apart") once and forever at the time of our new birth. Other verses, however, such as Romans 6:19 and others, clearly describe a practical sanctification.
Jeremy |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2139
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 11:18 am: | |
Jim,
Your question, "How do we know if we are called?" is a very excellent inquiry. For a thorough biblical study on this vital question, you may want to get a copy of the Christian classic by Dr. R. C. Sproul entitled, "Chosen by God." An entire chapter deals with the topic "Can we know that we are saved?" Knowing we are saved or called is vital to our spiritual lives. Without it our Christian growth (sanctification process) is retarded and we are assailed with crippling doubts. God calls us to make our election sure, to find the comfort and strength that God offers in assurance. Once His elect, we strive to look to God who is preserving us. It is impossible that He should fail to keep us. In Romans 15, Paul declares that it is God who is the source or fountainhead of our perseverance and encouragement. We persevere, not because of our strength but because of God's grace that preserves us. [CREDIT: Excerpts gleaned from Dr. Sproul's book entitled "CHOSEN BY GOD."] This is a must-read type of book. You will be richly blest in reading it. I got a copy for my 16-year-old grandson recently.
Dennis Fischer |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1499
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 12:42 pm: | |
Dennis:
quote:They needed to be reminded that if they went all the way back to live as they used to, they were not going to inherit eternal salvation, because it would indicate that they never were saved.
So is it possible for me to think that I am saved and not being saved at all? Having being born again, can I be unborn again? If I accepted Jesus as my personal savior and was born again, but I can go back and prove that "I've never been saved," how can I get assurance of my salvation?
It seems to me that either I'm saved, or I am not saved. Either I can lose my salvation, or I cannot. But I cannot have it both ways.
Hec |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11976
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 2:53 pm: | |
Jim, "How can I please God?"—
The answer is very simple:
quote:Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”
(John 6:27-28; John 6:29 ESV) Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
(John 6:27-28; John 6:29 ESV)
Believe, Jim—when we believe and trust Him, we enter His rest. That is entirely how we please Him. We allow Him to be our price and our Life. We receive His Spirit and are hidden with Christ in God (Col 3:3), passing from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son (Col 1:13).
Colleen |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1026
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 6:12 pm: | |
Thank You Dennis,
I will make a note of that book and add it too my list.
Colleen,
What you wrote above and a few days ago jumped off the page towards me.
I don't want to go off the deep end.
In this string there are a few sub themes running.
The Sanctifacation topic has brought back the question I posed before. If it was answered , I missed it.
In the NT the phrase "to him that overcomes" followed by a reward or promise. Appears more than once.
To me this kind of runs across the 'once saved' theory. Or Justified once and for all.
What if we don't overcome a specific whatever? For that matter , overcome what? I am not sure what it refers to as overcome. Sin? Faults?
Weakness, Doubt, Fear?
If nothing can take us from His hand, then how does overcoming become so key?
It seems we have a mission to accomplish.
This kind of falls right into SDA thinking.
The assurance one needs can be undermined with task setting and open ended measuring brought on by the interpretation of these conditional passages.
Jim |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1500
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 8:00 pm: | |
How about 1Jn 5:4?
"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith."
What overcomes? Our faith.
What faith? John 6:29 ESV) Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Hec |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11980
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 10:51 pm: | |
Exactly, Hec. Yes, our "overcoming" is our persevering through the trials of life by resting in God's provision for us. We can't overcome evil; when we are alive in Jesus, we "overcome" by being in Him and His authority and strength overcome evil and give us the courage and strength to repent, surrender, and trust.
We "overcome" not by disciplining our behaviors and and weaknesses; we overcome by trusting the Lord Jesus, surrendering to Him our fears and faults, and resting as He directs us, one day at a time, into living by the Spirit instead of indulging the flesh.
We don't lose the Holy Spirit when we sin, if we are born again. But the Holy Spirit teaches and convicts us to surrender our desires to the Lord Jesus, and thus we begin to see the power of His Spirit at work in our mortal flesh.
At any point, however, we are seen as completely justified and sanctified by the Father if we are born again.
Colleen |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6899
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 3:08 am: | |
Also we get a hint in Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
I think that is one of the reasons why it is so important to confess who we are in Jesus, and to confess his total atonement?
It still amazes me the depths in which Adventism reaches into the mind of its victims.
A friend of mind said this to me, just imagine if you woke up tomorrow morning and found out your family isn’t your family, your wife and children aren’t yours, you weren’t born where you know you were born, your neighbors aren’t your neighbors, your education never happened, you didn’t have the job you thought you had, the color ‘red’ is really called ‘blue’ and your motorcycle is really a truck. This is how it feels when our SDA world changes into another reality.
I thought I ‘got’ how the former feels before, and I did have a sort of handle on it, but this brought the full force of it home and hammered it into my brain. It reminds me of an old movie where the guy wakes up and finds everything in his town are really just props, the cars have no engines, the houses are sterile.
So many times I’ve lost patience and now I have regrets about that. Colleen keeps trying to hammer the trust factor home, and looking at this today, I agree, but trust in what? Jesus full and free atonement, our whole faith is built on the fact of the Jesus cross, death, and resurrection.
You know, no matter how many times a day that I feel the need to go back to the cross for assurance, I’m going to do it, I don’t care if I have to go back to that cross every cotton pickin’ five minutes, I’m still going to do it.
Now you may think that since I never was how I described the former Adventist above that I don’t need to go back to the cross for a dip in his blood, but you couldn’t be more wrong. I have to visit the cross almost daily and be plunged into his blood again and again and again.
This is what I advise any one of you to do when the doubts and cares of this world tries to take your peace, go back, go back, go back, and let his blood flow over you and around you. Oh folks, there’s power in the blood. I am begging you with tears, go back as many times as you need too, Jesus is waiting.
River |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 1027
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 3:38 am: | |
Amen River.
Collen, Hec, this makes sense.
I pray it takes root in my thinking.
Jim |
Free2dance
Registered user
Username: Free2dance
Post Number: 206
Registered: 2-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 7:39 am: | |
Jim,
A few things I have posted before, but I think may be helpful.
"Now all glory to God, who is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING AWAY and WILL bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault. All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen." Jude 1:24-25
On Overcoming:
"For EVERYONE WHO HAS BEEN BORN OF GOD overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith." 1 JOHN 5:4 (Author of Revelation)
Overcoming is about faith, not works.
Look at what the same author wrote about what Jesus promises those who overcome- are born of God through faith!
The greek word for "overcome" is the same in 1 John 5:4 as the word used in Revelation "nikaô"( http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/view.cgi?number=3528 ). It is ALL about faith.
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it. To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery— just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Revelation 2:7,11,17, 26-29 & 3:12"
A few more passages I think might help:
"God didn't set us up for an angry rejection but for salvation by our Master, Jesus Christ. He died for us, a death that triggered life. Whether we're awake with the living or asleep with the dead, we're alive with him! So speak encouraging words to one another. Build up hope so you'll all be together in this, no one left out..." 1 Thes 5:9-11 (The Message)
"Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits in the place of honor at God’s right hand. Think about the things of heaven, not the things of earth. For you died to this life, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God. And when Christ, who is your life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory." Colossians 3:1-4
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has CAUSED us to be BORN AGAIN to a living hope THROUGH THE RESSURECTION OF JESUS CHRIST from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, KEPT IN HEAVEN FOR YOU, who BY GOD'S POWER are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Peter 1 : 3-5 NASB
And a quote worth repeating to myself daily:
"It is entirely possible to come to the Bible in total sincerity, responding to the intellectual challenge it gives, or for the moral guidance it offers, or for the spiritual uplift it provides, and not in any way have to deal with a personally revealing God who has personal designs on you." ~ Eugene Peterson in EAT THIS BOOK (Thank you Delina)
Hope this helps a bit.
Colleen, I love what you said on Saturday. Im printing it and taking it with me back east. 
(Message edited by free2dance on November 16, 2010) |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2140
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 8:50 am: | |
Hec,
You are most certainly correct in affirming that we are either saved or unsaved. When a man and a woman are in love we assume that they are aware of it. Can a justified person lose his justification? Of course not! While we can lose our assurance of salvation due to severe setbacks like a severe illness, economic downturn, death of a loved one, painful suffering, or a devastating fall into sin; however, the gift of salvation itself cannot be lost (i.e, Peter's denial of Christ, Job's experience, David's experience in regaining his assurance in Psalm 51, etc.). Assurance of salvation can be augmented or diminished.
We can increase our assurance or we can decrease it. We can even lose it altogether, at least for a season. The diligence to which we are called to make our election sure is an ongoing diligence. If we become smug in our assurance and begin to take it for granted, we run the risk of losing that assurance. It is the Word of God that comforts us in times of trial. Our preservation is a trinitarian work. God the Father keeps and preserves us. God the Son intercedes for us. God the Holy Spirit indwells and assists us. Our tribulations have the ultimate effect not of destroying our hope but of establishing it.
quote:With respect to the assurance of salvation there are basically four kinds of people in the world. (1) There are people who are not saved who know that they are not saved. (2) There are people who are saved who do not know that they are saved. (3) There are people who are saved who know that they are saved. (4) There are people who are not saved who "know" that they are saved.
It is the last group that throws a monkey wrench into the works...False assurance stems chiefly from false understanding of what salvation requires or entails. (Dr. R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God, pp. 163-164)
Dennis Fischer |
Paulcross
Registered user
Username: Paulcross
Post Number: 108
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 9:17 am: | |
Dennis,
Appreciated your post and especially the Quote from Sproul.
...those pesky "false understandings of what salvation requires or entails." Just when I think all the cob webs are out of the corners I find another trace of SDAism. Actually these evidences are more like big pieces than traces.
I continue to follow this thread but it is hard on my Blackberry (I'm travelling).
Thanks all for the discussion.
[Broken, Bleeding, Bandaged and Blessed - Praise Him!]
Paul Cross |
Christo
Registered user
Username: Christo
Post Number: 247
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 11:12 am: | |
Dennis,
I too appreciated your post. Our sense of assurance of salvation can strengthen or weaken, but this is just a perception. God does not weaken our salvation at times when we don't feel it strongly. There is no weak salvation.
Its like times when we might feel separated from God, but this is just a sense of separation, God is with us always.
Chris |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1502
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 1:08 pm: | |
Thanks for the clarification, Dennis.
Hec |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2141
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 7:53 pm: | |
The God of the Mountain
Talk is so easy when you're up on the mountain and life is at its best. But when things go wrong and you're down in the valley, remember that the God of the good times is still God in the bad times. The God of the mountain is still God in the valley. The God of the day is still God in the night. Please sit back, turn up your speakers, and listen to Lynda Randle sing this uplifting message in song:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=V65EPF2S-s0
Dennis Fischer
(Message edited by Dennis on November 16, 2010) |
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