| Author | Message | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2010 |
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:24-31) The 10C's were established long ago, in no way can we "establish" them today. This passage must be talking about "the law of faith". The "works" or deeds of the law are not what saves us, but the law of faith that does. That faith is in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for our sins past present and future. We are all going to slip up from time to time, and He is faithful to grant us forgiveness for those slip-ups. In James chapter 2 it speaks about "faith without works". Often times this is translated into the "works of the law", as in an external observation of keeping a law, such as the sabbath being kept. God doesn't need to see any of us do anything, does He? No, He knows our hearts better than we do. So this can't be talking about the works of the law, but instead the works of the law of faith. That is indicated in last portion of the chapter in James 2. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:21-26) It was "by faith" that Abraham offered Issac at the alter. It was "by faith" that the harlot Rehab, lied and told the soldiers looking for the spies that they weren't there. Because they were sent out another way. (Joshua 2:4, 6, 15) The works of faith are far greater acts than the works of the law, Peter stepped out of the boat "by faith" although he became scared and started to sink. I see how the SDA church turns this around to make it say what they want it to say [James 2]. The works of the law doesn't save us, the works of faith is what James is talking about, not the works of the law, anybody can do them, and they can be a hypocrite just as we saw with the Pharisees. The work of Faith is stepping out of the boat! By stepping out of the boat Peter defied the laws of physics just as Jesus was doing. It is through faith that we walk with Him, knowing He has already paid for our sins on the cross. Making a way for us to be reconciled. God bless, Cliff | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 908 Registered: 2-2008  |
Hi Cliff~ What I find so interesting about what James says is that the very 2 examples he gives of "faith without works is dead" has nothing to do with keeping the 10C's. He didn't point out that Rahab showed her faith by all those Sabbaths she kept... or was going to keep. Her "righteous" act was hiding the spies. How or where does that fall in the 10C's or the Law? As far as "establishing the Law", I would love to hear everyone else's perspectives. I do believe that Paul is talking about establishing the "Law" meaning as either the Torah or even 10C's. I see that Paul asks that "do we void the Law through faith?" So it seems to me that "Law" and "faith" are different things. How it also reads to me is that Paul is establishing that the Law is established for the purpose of 1) to "shut up the world." 2) to make the world accountable to God and 3) to point out sin (Rom. 3:19,20). That's all the Law was intended for. I think that the problem of lists, including the 10C's, is that we can change ourselves on the outside to conform to these lists and not transform ourselves on the inside. Lists can make me feel better that I'm doing better as a Christian because I can check myself off on the checklist... I didn't lie today... check... I didn't steal today... check. But all these "checks" don't transform me... they just show me if I have sinned or not. From what I've experienced, I've heard people say "if only they had given their kids more rules they wouldn't have the problem they are having now." More rules don't transform a life... Christ does. Thanks for writing this Cliff! vivian | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 179 Registered: 7-2010 |
Good points Vivian! Here is what Rahab said to the two spies: Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my father's house, and give me a true token: And that ye will save alive my father, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death. And the men answered her, Our life for yours, if ye utter not this our business. And it shall be, when the LORD hath given us the land, that we will deal kindly and truly with thee. (Joshua 2:12-14) We know from the story (account) of what happened at Jericho, Rahab's family and house were spared. It was by the act of faith not by keeping any Commandment. Look at the story 1.) she's a harlot who is quite possibly guilty of being an adulterer. [Why else is she referred to as a harlot?] 2.) she lied about the spies (v.4) breaking 2 of the commandments. We learn from James 2:11 if you break one of them you've broken them all. She was quite possibly in violation of two Commandments. So it can't be about the 10C's, but about a good deed done in faith. | ||
| Gorancroatia Registered user Username: Gorancroatia Post Number: 161 Registered: 6-2010 |
on : "we establish the law." (Romans 3:24-31): I understund that we do that, just by our faith in Jesus and not in LAw, because, we testified the condemnation of the Law, and salvation without Law. SDA falcely claims that they are not under curse of Law, and that they do keep all Law. - and that is a lie. | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 181 Registered: 7-2010 |
Hi Goran, Lets back up in Scripture just a bit. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (Romans 3:19-25) The deeds of the law were never meant to justify us or the Jews, it was and is, our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross for our sins. We now have His righteousness because we have none of our own. That righteousness comes by faith in Jesus Christ. This is why Rahab and her family were spared, it was through the faith she had that the Lord would spare them because of this act of kindness towards the spies. She had lied and said they weren't there, they had already gone. So we can see that God didn't punish her and her family for this indiscretion of the 10C's. Does this give us the right to lie? No, it doesn't, but perhaps under certain circumstances God overlooks this indiscretion. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Romans 5:1-2) Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying we should just sin willfully. We are all going to slip up and do things that break the 10C's and sometimes we aren't even going to know that we did. But we are no longer bound to do the deeds/works of the law. God doesn't need to see us do anything that is externally motivated. Jesus told us in the Sermon on the Mount, that we could commit adultery just by thinking and lusting after the woman (or man, for the ladies). We don't even have to commit the physical act! Does that help? | ||
| Michaelmiller Registered user Username: Michaelmiller Post Number: 131 Registered: 7-2010  |
I understand Rom 3:31 as meaning that we establish the law for the purpose in which it was intended... to bring recognition of our need for a savior. Contextually (well above 3:31 and on into the next chapter) it can't mean that it is established as a standard of righteousness for believers. James 2 takes a few readings through to even make sense of. I still don't know if I have it right, but I can see clearly that the SDA usage of the chapter (overemphasis on vs. 11 and vs. 17 while ignoring everything else) completely ignores that there are two laws being discussed simultaneously (2 Cor 3 shows clearly that the law of freedom/liberty is not the 10C). As already pointed out, the examples of deeds given are not OC commands at all. Since the book is written to a Jewish Christian audience, I see James using by example an OC concept (break one command and you've as good as broken them all) as a starting place to explain a NC concept (loving your neighbor). It is using something familiar for the audience to explain what was unfamiliar. Then James goes on to define the relationship of faith and deeds (deeds being an outgrowth of faith). I have some trouble with this chapter because, as best as I can tell, the punctuation (including where the quotes end and James' commentary begins) appear to have been added later and the punctuation varies in location depending on the translation being read. Reading a literal translation also has the word order all jumbled around. I've got the concept being expressed, but I can see how some get hung up on specific phrases. Michael | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11949 Registered: 12-2003  |
I understand "we establish the law" as you explained it, Michael. We establish it as God's tool for revealing and increasing sin. And you're right about the two laws in James 2. One of the things I most hate re: the SDA explanation of that chapter is their saying that the 10C's are the "law of liberty". James clearly says the law of liberty is "love your neighbor as yourself". James was the first NT books written, and it was written to the scattered Jewish believers who had fled Jerusalem because of Roman persecution, and perhaps also to those who had been in Jerusalem at Pentecost and returned home to their orthodox Jewish ghettos as Christians. Imagine what it must have been like for them: they leave their homes to go to Jerusalem for Passover and the Feat 50 days later--and they return home Christians. They had no local congregations to worship with... They knew the OT, and in fact, the OT is all the Scripture they had then. So James wrote to them about how to live as Christians as new believers, using the OT to explain their new covenant reality. Neither Peter nor Paul had written anything yet, nor were the gospels written. So James was the first NT writer, and he was writing as a lifelong orthodox Jew to other orthodox Jews who suddenly knew their Messiah. It's important to remember that we were seriously mis-taught James. The ways we were taught to understand its arguments were "twisted" from the plain meanings of the text as understood in context. We were taught James in the context of an Adventist worldview; James wrote it in the context of orthodox Judaism being fulfilled in Jesus and redeemed in the lives of the first believers. The Adventist "hermeneutic" is so "wrong". It even makes James, the first book explaining how to live as born-again Jews no longer ruled by the law, into a book defending a false gospel. Amazing. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2123 Registered: 4-2000  |
In regard to Romans 3:31, Paul knew he would be accused of antinomianism (being against law) for arguing that a man was justified apart from keeping the law. Paul here introduced the defense he later developed in chapters 6 and 7. Salvation by grace through faith does not denigrate the law, but underscores it true importance: (1) by providing a payment for the penalty of death, which the law required for failing to keep it; (2) by fulfilling the law's original purpose, which is to serve as a tutor to show mankind's utter inability to obey God's righteous demands and to drive people to Christ (Gal. 3:24); and (3) by giving believers the capacity to obey it (Romans 8:3,4). Moreover, our sovereign God uses the law, with its ethical standards, to control or limit evil in the world. This is why the Ten Commandments are prominently displayed on a wall in the U. S. Supreme Court. "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law" (Romans 3:31 ESV). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1479 Registered: 3-2009 |
(8:3) For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God [did:] sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and [as an offering] for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, (8:4) so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Is it the same thing to say, "that the requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us, or "that the requirements of the law might be fulfilled by us? Hec | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 242 Registered: 2-2008 |
Dennis, Romans 8::3,4 refers to the imputed righteousness of Christ, the requirements of the law being fulfilled in us by Christ, not by us. This is one of those "lest any man should boast issues" The law was totally, and finally upheld on the cross, with Christ taking the punishment for all mankind. Their is no double jeopardy in the kingdom, no one can be punished twice for the same crime. Best to enter the Kingdom. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11953 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, I agree, Chris and Hec. The law IS righteous and holy and good...because it did what God ordained it to do...and it still spells out the terms and conditions of sin. In Jesus we have His personal righteousness imputed to us, and we are credited with the Lord Jesus's personal righteousness. His Spirit and His word bring discipline and obedience to our flesh, but these things are the fruit of salvation and not its requirements. Moreover, this obedience transcends the 10 Commandments. It goes to our desires and motives. This discipline is the inevitable result of being made alive. Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 909 Registered: 2-2008 |
I agree with Chris, Hec and Colleen too... Paul states the purposes of the Law in Rom. 3:19,20 1) ... so that every mouth may be closed 2) all the world may be accountable to God 3) No one will be justified by the works of the Law. 4) through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. This is what Paul was "establishing." It is the "law of faith" that justifies those who are of the Law and those who are not of the Law (Rom. 3:30). I also agree that our obedience goes way beyond to just those 10 rules... and is a result of the Holy Spirit's work. Not ours. vivian | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 423 Registered: 1-2007  |
Colleen said "His Spirit and His word bring discipline and obedience to our flesh, but these things are the fruit of salvation and not its requirements. Moreover, this obedience transcends the 10 Commandments. It goes to our desires and motives. This discipline is the inevitable result of being made alive." Well said. Paul | ||
| Dljc Registered user Username: Dljc Post Number: 182 Registered: 7-2010 |
I believe this is the key point. It is through the law that we know what is sin and what isn't. But more importantly, that we don't or no longer do these things not just because they are a sin against Him, but also because they make our current lives miserable. Even unbelievers know it's wrong to lie, cheat, steal, murder, and covet something to keep up with the Jones'. They may do any one of those or any number of them, but in the end they know they are wrong. We as Christians not only know they are wrong, but we also know it's through the power of the Holy Spirit, that teaches us that we don't do them. The Law was never meant to save us, and as Michael pointed out, it was intended to help us to see just how much we needed a Savior. Because we couldn't do it on our own. And our only righteousness is in Him. It is "by faith" that we believe and it is "by faith" that we obey. It has nothing to do with "works of the law" but everything to do with obedience through Faith. If you look at the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus talks about the law, (Matthew 5:21-37) He explains how from within the person is changed, not the work or going through the motion of the act. Clean the cup from the inside first! Then the rest will be clean. This is what Jesus told the Pharisees. We walk by faith not by sight. Faith is not belief without proof, but trust without reservation. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2124 Registered: 4-2000 |
Chris, What the external, written code was unable to accomplish, the Spirit is able to do by writing the law on our hearts (Jer. 31:33,34) and giving us power to obey it. "...not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" is not an admonition, but a statement of fact that applies to all believers. "Walk" refers to a lifestyle, the habits of living, and thinking that characterize a person's life. Since every true Christian is indwelt by the Spirit (Romans 8:9), every Christian will manifest the fruit He produces in his life (Gal. 5:22,23). The "righteous requirement of the law" are the thoughts, words, and deeds which the moral Law of God demands. The ceremonial aspect of the Mosaic Law has been set aside (Col. 2:14-17), and the basic responsibility for the civil aspect, which shows the application of moral law in a community, has been transferred to human government (Romans 13:1-7). The moral law finds its basis in the character of God and is presented in outline form in the Ten Commandments; its most condensed form is in Jesus' commands to love God and to love one's neighbor as one's self. Importantly, its substance has never been abrogated, but finds its authority in the New Covenant. Every unbeliever is still under its requirement of perfection and its condemnation, until coming to Christ (Gal. 3:23-25) and every believer still finds in it the standard for behavior. Dennis Fischer |
