| Author |
Message |
Cortney
Registered user
Username: Cortney
Post Number: 142
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 3:52 pm: |     |
I don't have really any contact with the Adventist community, except a few. People who want me to rejoin the 'truth'. My question in response to an Adventist friend's remark was this, I was very defensive at this point!!: me: "What happens say, if Christ were to come back and there were no Sunday Laws or Sabbath-Keeping persecutions and everything Mrs. White prophesyed did not come to pass"? "What would be your opinion of Mrs. White given this scenario"? the answer from my friend: "Courtney have ever really studied the Old Testament, specifically referring to Jonah"? me "yes" friend "Well this is where 'present truth' is most present and real in the scriptures "!! me: "Huh"?? friend: "Mrs White's prophecies may have been Present Truth for her generation". me: "What"?? me "So what are you getting at"? her: "Well my thinking is if Sunday Laws do not happen,which I believe they will, this would be a good example of the story of Jonah and present truth, Mrs. White may have been given these visions 'for a time such as this', meaning these visions were truth for her generation only". me: "the Bible says if the words of a prophet do not come to pass, you are to turn away from the false prophet" friend: "You really need to go back and study the writing of the OT prophets and kings, Jonah is a prime example of present truth". me "No, thanks, gotta go". I am convinced EGW can do no wrong by these people, wow.. |
Cortney
Registered user
Username: Cortney
Post Number: 143
Registered: 8-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 4:14 pm: | |
This person not only managed to 'try' to dis-credit my opinion, but spoke to me as if I were a child that needed reprimand. Do they not realize "pride comes before the fall". |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11511
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 4:35 pm: | |
Well, Cortney, there's really no breaking through the Adventist shell unless the person actually wants to know the truth.
That "present truth" argument is really annoying to me. They use it as if it is "real", as if it's a given that everyone believes in "present truth". In fact, it is NOT a biblical idea. It's an invented idea that allows Adventists to refuse to deal with EGWs many internal contradictions. It also allows them to dismiss the things in the Bible they can't explain.
Several years ago my MIL said, when I mentioned that Paul said salvation was only believing in the Lord Jesus and thus being saved—without the "health message", that what Paul taught was "present truth" for his day. The Health Message hadn't been given yet...
"Present Truth" is the invention that allows Adventists to stay in deception unruffled. If anything comes there way that questions their beliefs or practices and they feel insecure about how to defend them, they can just call on "Present Truth" and thus avoid all conflict.
Colleen |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1094
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 11:03 pm: | |
Colleen,
I appreciate what you wrote above. Present Truth ...
And what is that "Truth" ...
It has nothing to do with Jesus - Who called Himself the "Way, the Truth, and the Life".
Present Truth cuts Jesus out of the equation and gives us a "no gospel" as talked about in the book of Galatians.
Thanks for the clarification of SDA use of "Present Truth".
Keri |
Martin
Registered user
Username: Martin
Post Number: 122
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2010 - 4:40 am: | |
Has there ever been an article in Proclamation dealing with the concept of the "present truth" and how it isn't biblical?
I think it could be interesting and helpful for many. |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 33
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2010 - 5:54 am: | |
Jonah message was: repent and E.W. message was : that is to be like that and that....
So it is not alike. Adventist do not see that. |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 663
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2010 - 9:02 am: | |
"Present Truth" is just a kinder, gentler way to say "Failed Prophecies". |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11518
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2010 - 3:03 pm: | |
Ha! I love how you can sum up the essence of something, Freeatlast, with a pithy phrase that shows the craziness we lived with as it masqueraded as something deep and insightful...
Yeah, deep like a pit...
Colleen |
Freedom55
Registered user
Username: Freedom55
Post Number: 64
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2010 - 9:20 pm: | |
Just thinking about the term "Present Truth" it seems to me to imply that truth changes, with time. What is truth at one time is not truth at another time.
But Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life"; and at Heb 13:8 that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever"; and in Malachi "I am the Lord, I change not". So if Jesus was the Truth 2000 years ago, has Truth changed? Can Truth change? I don't think so.
Present Truth makes truth uncertain and changeable and confusing. Truth becomes relative. There would be no absolute truth. What's present truth for you may not be present truth for me. Who would have the authority to define what present truth is? Ahh, that's why the SDA church needs a prophet!
I never used to think much about the term "present truth" but now it seems almost like blasphemy to use the term. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11524
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2010 - 11:06 pm: | |
So true, Freedom. Exactly so.
It's amazingly comforting to know there is immovable, ultimate reality and truth—and that He knows us and lets us know Him!
Colleen |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 34
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2010 - 12:57 am: | |
"present truth" don't mean that truth about God and Jesus is changing but that doctrine of Christ Army is changing. So, SDAs in a moment of time, throughout conflict of ages, recognize to do their part in conflict, and that is called a Doctrine. By that doctrine SDA is doing part in Gods work. The sense of terms are different between evangelicals and Adventists, that is way Walter Martin have so much trouble with the SDAs. Remember that SDAs view on Bible inspiration is that it is "thought inspired" and not "verbal" in that is a key of all misunderstanding. Because of that SDas are not disturb by exp. Roman 10. because they do not read it "verbal" but think that Paul rebuke Judaisms way of salvation bay doing the Law, and now salvation is obtained by Christ and is a gift, but it does not mean that Law is not there any more. Law is here and is pointing toward Jesus.
So, if you abolish Law you will lost Jesus also, because one needs two legs for walking. And that is message. Message is the point, not apart words of Bible. Law is binding and Christ gives the way out. SDA is considering E.W. like Jonah. If you check Jonah book, you will see, that Jonah is double minded because of fear that he will be exposed to be false prophet. He knows God and is sure that if Nineveh repent, God will not kill them. So, if world recognize Gods Law and Christianity repent of changing the Law or abolishing the Law, there will not be Gods punishment which is prepared for those who worship Beast, because they will not do that, they will repent and world will be saved.
(Message edited by GoranCroatia on August 05, 2010) |
Freedom55
Registered user
Username: Freedom55
Post Number: 65
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2010 - 6:45 am: | |
Early adventist leaders including EG White re-interpreted established truth and called it present truth, and in so doing changed the truth about Jesus and salvation. What they termed present truth were what they also called the landmarks or pillars of the SDA faith which included among other distinctive teachings, the investigative judgment and the sanctuary doctrine, both of which cannot be supported by Scripture and diminish the completed atonement the Christ accomplished on the cross.
On what authority did the early adventist leaders establish present truth? By their own interpretations supported by none other than the "visions" of EGW. |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 36
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2010 - 11:50 pm: | |
I will agree with Walter Martin on SDAs...check on Youtube:
1) There can be a saving faith in Jesus with some adventists men.
2) SDAs did not change view on Jesus person, and not change Gospel if you read this: Tit 2:14
3) The SDAs church (in 80s) was on crossroad, but the question is where it went?, Today what is the main thing in SDAs ? It is not E.W. , it is not a Bible, (if you go to churches, you will see that), and than what is the main thing? I do not know any more. SDA is in bad helth today in West, like others also, but I think SDA is wining some peoples for Jesus in East and South of World.
Tit 2:14
KJV
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
NKJV
who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
You can see that word iniquity and lawless deed are here with same meaning.
So, I do not see that SDAs changed truth like Freedom55 said, but I can say that there are more practical problems with SDAs. If Helth reform was "right hand of gospel", like it was ment by E.W., we can see that there are some parts of SDAs who think that helth message is the Gospel. So, I do not think that SDA officialy changed truth.
Is there a someone who know Greek word for that place? |
Gorancroatia
Registered user
Username: Gorancroatia
Post Number: 38
Registered: 6-2010
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 6:01 am: | |
I am a friend of Adventist people and a lover of truth.
Walter Martin
I am not an enemy of Adventism.
Walter Martin
I am not saying we are categorizing Ellen White in the biblical context of a false prophet.
Walter Martin
I thought some of Mrs. White's material was prophetic. I felt some of her insights were extremely helpful and I regarded her as a sister in the Lord. I wasn't out to attack Ellen White's character.
Walter Martin
Mrs. White, in my opinion, made false statements. She misused what she claimed was the prophetic gift she had.
Walter Martin |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 1098
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 6:06 am: | |
I'm afraid SDA is SDA no matter where in the world you are. And SDA teaches a false gospel.
There is a video on utube of a Christian missionary in Africa I believe who talks about winning souls for Christ and SDA's who tag along with them and when they leave the SDA person then negates the freedom of the gospel and undermines the gospel. It is very similar to what happened to the Galatian Church in the book Galatians.
If you look at the origins of the SDA denomination they never started with the gospel - or with the truth. There never was a foundation in Who Jesus was/is in the SDA Church? and Who you say Jesus is affects the gospel.
Keri |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6473
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 7:36 am: | |
Walter Martin has been made out some kind of hero simply because he contested with a few SDA's.
I suspect he didn't know SDA-ism from a base fiddle.
Walter Martin ain't the last word in Christianity neither.
In my book, Adventism turns out nothing but broken people, the reason is that Adventism was broken from the git go, and further more, it's still broke!
I mean, when the heck are we going to begin calling a spade a spade?
My Bible tell me in Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
If Adventist are being led by the Spirit of God, then what Spirit am I involved with here? Because there is no resemblance to the spirit that I know, and the spirit that causes adventism to break and crush people.
I mean, just name one former who don't come out all screwed up. I challenge anybody to name me just one.
And what I just said is not a slant toward a single former Adventist, I don't think I have ever loved a people more than the former Adventists, so saying I'm not speaking out of love don't fly neither.
So before we go saying there are Christians in Adventism, we better take a look at the fruit they are turning out. The apple don't fall far from the tree.
I don't mean that we should abuse Adventists or hate them, I don't hate the Adventist I know, I love them as a people as much as lays within me to love them, but friend there are so many problems with Adventist doctrine I don't even know where to begin, and the Adventist that are in there are going along with it.
One of my Adventist friends whom I care for so very much, his whole personality changes when he gets to reading those red books, and it ain't a pretty sight.
I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again, for loves sake they have become my friends, for the gospels sake they have become my enemies, and my Christian brothers and sisters are not my enemies and anybody is lying who says they are.
All I can say is, when any Adventist, I don't care who they are, comes a knockin' on your door, it might be advisable to hug your children close.
Now that is just my opinion. I may sound like an opinionated monkey, but I got my reasons.
I ain't going to namby pamby around with Adventism and I ain't going to pet that snake.
River |
Patallen
Registered user
Username: Patallen
Post Number: 45
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 8:31 am: | |
Amen River,
I had no idea how screwed up I was. I'm discovering that truth is foreign to Adventism and I totally agree that it ruins lives. I've only been out for two years (was in for over 50) and I've read comments from formers who have been out for decades and Adventist stuff still surfaces in their heads. I'm sure this falls my lot as well cause it's happening all of the time even now. If SDA's are to be credited for anything, it's the great job they do in brainwashing and twisting the plain words of Scripture to fit their 'other' gospel. It, quite frankly, angers and sickens me. Like, how could I have been so stupid? I feel like I have been 'played' when my soul was at stake.
I have to keep before me that God does all things well and He does it in His own timing. I sincerely believe that if I had left out of disgust and unhappiness BEFORE I discovered the lies and false doctrine, I would have always felt guilty for leaving the 'true' church and somewhere down the line would have probably eventually gone back. When God decided it was time for me to go, He uncuffed me and set me free to enjoy Him, His Word, life and others without the burden of 'works' and the daily judgments of the 'remnant'.
I continue to thank Him and praise Him. As an Adventist, something inside of me wouldn't allow me to witness (probably because I didn't know what I was talking about and I definitely couldn't prove it) BUT NOW I'm reaching out and trying to point 'whosoever will' to Jesus because it is quite frankly, all about Him and Him only. The only pointer I need is His Word and how sweet it is! It never tasted soooo good!
Thank God for deliverance!
Pat |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2069
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 9:50 am: | |
Pat,
All true believers are missionaries. This fact is beyond our control as members of His wonderful family. It is a vital part of Christianity. We can only share what we truly have. Moreover, being a missionary is a commandment for every Christ-follower. What an awesome privilege and thought to realize that God wants us to have a significant role in the proclamation of the Gospel! Indeed, there is a distinct audience that each Christian has to impact others. In short, the "good news" is too good not to share.
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11528
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 4:47 pm: | |
Gorancroatia, Walter Martin was deceived by the Adventists. There is printed documentation stating this now, Adventist writers are admitting this. The annotations in the reprinted Questions on Doctrine admit this fact.
Adventism is extremely devious. It actually has changed the identity and nature of Jesus; the founding members actually believed Jesus was not eternal, Almighty God. And EGW did not affirm the Christian Trinity. The church today retains an understanding of the Trinity as being three distinct "Worthies of Heaven" who "cooperate" with humans.
The Adventist Jesus could have failed, did not possess omniscience, omnipresence, or omnipotence.
Moreover, they have denied the nature of man by saying man does not have an immaterial spirit that survives the grave. This perversion of the nature of man applies to their perception of the man Jesus as well. He was "just like us"; his human body didn't have a spirit, either. They believe He was completely gone while in the tomb.
They have added to the gospel and have made Sabbath the mark of the saved.
They have changed the gospel, and they have a different Jesus. At the core, they have Satan bearing the sins of the saved.
Adventism does not teach the gospel. The scary thing is that they learn to say the right words, but underneath, the meanings differ, and they teach the different meanings to their members. Consequently, the members don't know their meanings are different from Christians', and Christians don't know the Adventist understands things differently when their words sound the same. It's confusing and deceptive.
Colleen |
Freedom55
Registered user
Username: Freedom55
Post Number: 66
Registered: 3-2008
| | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 6:33 pm: | |
Thank you Colleen for stating this so clearly. Walter Martin was intentionally misled by adventist leaders and as a result his statements about the SDA church are tainted thereby. |
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