| Author | Message | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 884 Registered: 2-2008  |
I was driving home today from church and thinking about this past week. I couldn't help but think about when my sda brother came over to visit this week. In the last 2 or 3 times that I've seen him, he's brought up this: He believes that the Jesuits have taken over the 12 financial institutions of the world. Whether this is true or not, I don't know. I do feel that the purpose of him telling this to me is to manipulate me by fear… fear that the Sunday Law may be here very soon. He doesn't come out and say that, I just know that is the underlying reason for bringing up the Jesuits having power over the financial institutions. Now I know that this probably isn't anything new to people here… but it's something that struck me today. I got to thinking about my feelings and belief about prophecy. I've come to believe that prophecy isn't about telling the future, but about God's sovereignty. As I see things that come to pass, I can recognize them and see them as God revealing His plan and His faithfulness to His word. Prophecy reveals God!! My mind flashed back to my brother and I realized another HUGE disparity that I have between what I believe now and what I used to believe. As an Adventist, prophecy was about revealing the Sabbath. People would persecute me for worshipping on the Sabbath… "but I'll hold true to my beliefs and worship on the Sabbath no matter how they torture me!" ;) Prophecy, when I was Adventist was never about revealing Who God is… but revealing the Sabbath!!! Since I've left Adventism, every year that goes by the chasm gets deeper and deeper. When I first left, I thought that the differences between Adventism and Christianity were small but significant. Now there is this huge, deep chasm that separates what I believe now and what I believed then. There's no crossing back over that chasm! Praising God for His sovereignty over my life… my world. vivian | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 153 Registered: 3-2009 |
Vivian, I too thought when I first left Adventism that the differences between Christianity & Adventism were small but significant. Now I see more and more how huge that chasm is! One really huge significant thing I see now is that in Adventism, the focus was always "accepting the Sabbath" never accepting Jesus as your Savior. People would praise and Amen that someone had accepted the Sabbath but nothing was said about Jesus. And I see prophecy as you do....it is all about revealing who God is. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 436 Registered: 4-2007 |
This has been my experience as well. The further I 'get away' from Adventism the more apparent is that every aspect of their theology is in opposition to the Gospel, it is truly anti-gospel. From the Remnant Dictionary: WHITE LITE: An optical phenomenon that reverses meanings. (words do not mean what they say) (Examples: Free is Debt, Assurance is Doubt, Gift is Earned, God (Jesus) was an Archangel (not God) Experienced only by those who believe everything Ellen White wrote. (see: SPIRITURALGESES, VEIL) John Douglas | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1357 Registered: 7-2007 |
John, I like what you quoted from the "Remnant Dictionary"; especially "Gift is Earned." When I was a SDA, I didn't see any problem with this, but only in my understanding. I figured that both Ellen White and the Bible were true, that somehow they agreed, that Paul's saying "for by grace you HAVE BEEN saved" agreed with Ellen White's saying that "no one should say they are saved." I just had to take them both a little metaphorically, which still did not give me a lasting assurance of salvation. I figured that salvation was a free gift as long as I did the right things. Observe the Sabbath, check cans for lard, etc. etc... I was continually trying to do just the right gymnastics or something to make it all balance. | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 155 Registered: 3-2009 |
yes it was all mental gymnastics! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6539 Registered: 9-2006  |
What I’ve noticed is the former Aventist still has trouble differentiating between what prophecy was under the old covenant, and the gift of prophecy under the new covenant. I think this difficulty stems from the fact that as Adventist their primary book of study was the Old Testament, and I can understand that if this has taken place over a lifetime, born, bred and raised in Adventism. So many of them try to realize that under the new covenant, everything has changed, yet their view of prophecy still carry’s the same litmus test of prophecy under the old covenant, this is due from a lifetime of thinking that way. Whereas the evangelical is raised with the new testament as his primary book of study. In other words the former, until he has made the complete mental turnaround, still has some Adventist ways of thinking hanging the rafters of his mind. Vivian is at least somewhat right in saying that prophecy revealed God, and the surety of him and his word, and the litmus test was whether the prophetic word came to pass or not, and if not the person was to be paid no attention too. In fact the sentence for prophesying falsely was pretty stiff. So in view of all this, the litmus test under the old covenant is applied to Ellen White, when in fact the litmus test is different under the new covenant. We need to come completely out of the old covenant, because the old covenant has been done away with, and the former Adventist thinking needs to make drastic changes. The whole way of thinking has been wrong, not just what you thought on different subjects. Ellen White fails under the new covenant litmus test, or the old covenant litmus test either one, but this is not what I am trying to point out to you. Under the new covenant litmus test, the test is whether or not the gift edifies the church or not. There is no necessity to reveal God at all to a Christian, he has been revealed in Christ, in Salvation, in the heart, and spiritual discernment reveals Christ in each other too, each other. I don’t have to hear a prophecy to know that Vivian is my sister in Christ, but it’s not because she is always right. Sorry Vivian.  Or when she see’s me in the wrong, she don’t say, “River, your not my brother, because you were wrong.” Is there any need for God to reveal himself to me? Or is there any need for Vivian to try and convince me that God is in her? I KNOW he is. God is revealed in her in so many ways. Is there any need for God to convince me or her of his word? Sounds a little silly doesn’t it? He has already revealed himself to me in her, yet she hasn’t said anything to try and prove anything to me at all. How is there a reason for God to reveal himself to a Christian, when he lives in that Christian? So we need to live in that new covenant all the way. That’s what we are, new covenant Christians. Now maybe I shouldn’t be telling you this, but is just bothers me when a former gives Ellen white the same litmus test as if they are still under the old covenant. But this is why the gulf widens, as Adventism recedes. I have likened the coming out of Adventism and being borned again to the story Jesus told about the man who was in Abrahams bosom, because spiritually speaking you are too, And there is a grate gulf affixed between you and that cult you once swore by. The gulf is already great, its just that as Adventism recedes the gulf is revealed more to you and it looks wider and wider. If I was here to tickle your ears, I wouldn’t be telling you this, but since I ain’t, I am. I had a blow up with another Christian, and after a somewhat of an apology was made by the other person, at least all the apology I could expect to get, I never apologized because I didn’t feel I was wrong or guilty of the other Christians accusal, the Christian made the statement, “I believe you are my Christian brother”, and I thought, ‘What kind of an idiot are you?’ To me, the second offense was worse than the first! I’d rather be slapped in the face than to have another Christian say to me, I THINK you are a Christian brother. I don’t need anyone to verify God to me. He has been revealed to me on the cross, in the death of his Son, and a thousand other ways. Whereas a person who claims Christianity, talks Christianity, has head knowledge of the Bible and the whole bit, but is dead…well…I know a dead body when I see one. The thing that spurred me to write all this is what Vivian said, “Prophecy reveals God!!” My question is ‘too whom, and when’. Me thinks my sister has still got some old covenant bats in her new covenant belfry. Now I’ll just sit back and wait for the storm. River | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 885 Registered: 2-2008 |
LOL River!!! ... my old covenant bat says "EGW" on it! I guess what I mean by prophecy, I'm talking about Revelation and end time eschatology. I guess I shouldn't be lumping everything together... or should I be? Maybe "reveal" is not the right word... maybe "confirms" Who God is. For example, if I read a book about "Lindsay" and it tells me that Lindsay will get the hiccups every Monday and Wednesday. Then when I do meet Lindsay and she gets the hiccups every Monday and Wednesday, this is further confirmation that she truly is Lindsay. Does that make sense? Whereas for an Adventist, they are looking for future events to reveal the importance of Sabbath keeping to all people. Plus, they look for events to manipulate people, who left the church, with fear to go back to Sabbath keeping. I have to say that I haven't studied Corinthians thoroughly, but I do see your point River that prophecy is to edify people and build up Christ's body. I can see a hard core Adventist looking at you cross-eyed and say "... if prophecy is about edifying the church... then let me edify you about the Sabbath." To them, teaching the Sabbath is edifying and building up the church. The problem is that they worship the Sabbath day... a time period. It is their god. So everything they do is to promote Sabbath worshipping rather than impacting people for Christ. Jonvil~ I have to tell you that I LOVE your Remnant Dictionary! I about croaked the last time you posted them on a thread. I was ready to call my adventist relatives to see if those terms where defined in their Bible! So glad I waited! haha! Anyway... right now I have the priveledge of listening to my husband discuss/argue egw contradictions with my MIL... all in Spanish! vivian | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6541 Registered: 9-2006 |
What? No Storm Sis? Your statement, "“Prophecy reveals God!!” as far as I can see, was correct,(old testament speaking) and of course everything you said in the following post was correct. I merely wanted to remark about some things I see, mainly to do with past post, not yours, but in general. I guess it was stuff I had been living with for a long time that I had to get out. Thank you for letting me jump in, and get it off my chest, and of course all of Gods word is the prophetic word, as it were. If a hard core Adventist looks at me and says, "then Let me edify you with the sabbath." I'll inform him that he's dead, and I don't talk to dead bodies. I hope your hubby can help your (MIL) find rest in Christ, if that is what she lacks, River | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 157 Registered: 8-2006 |
River I like how you explained this, it makes sense. If Sabbath is the identifying mark of God' remnant, why are New Covenant churches so blessed, regarding growth and missions? If Sabbath was of such importance to God why are these denominations thriving while Adventism has such a high attrition rate? I've asked my mil this in the past, when we had a relationship, her explanation was that satan has taken control of nominal churches. I feel true growth in the Christian churches i have been attending, maybe because they focus more on Jesus and not the fear of sabbath-keeping. My husband for sure knows the Old Testament far better than the New Testament. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6542 Registered: 9-2006 |
They are blessed because they are 'living in' the new covenant. Your Mil was on very dangerous ground to attribute something that is of God as being under Satan's control. I wonder if she meant by nominal as 'Less than?' I get the feeling that this is what the word 'nominal' means to them. I think nominal carry's the meaning of supposed, small, hypothetical, made up. We evangelicals sure don't make it up, it ain't like we got a plan to suck people in, they are free to come and go as they wish. What amazes me most about Adventism Cortney, is the complete lack of knowledge of the bible, yet they gaze into them as if it were a crystal ball. They are literally floating in bibles, yet all they can do is jump around to familiar texts, then take the text they remember out of context so badly a 5 year old could do better. I said before one time that in reading the bible with Adventist, it is likened to a lizard, a lizard has a milky covering over it eyes, and when I was a kid I would catch those sand scorpions, the old scorpion would sit there in my palm in fear, and draw this milky membrane over it's eyes. When the Adventist comes to certain proof texts, the membrane comes down, and then I swear to you, the minute that text is past and we go on to the next one, that milky membrane raises back up. Now I am trying to explain something that happens in the spiritual realm, by relating what happens to a lizard in nature. I'm not saying they are lizards you understand, but this is the only way I know how to explain what happens as they read. The first time I saw this, I wondered, "did I just see what I saw?" But I did see what I saw, and its not made up. Its a sad fact, but is is fact I believe with all my heart. This milky veil comes upon them, and they are helpless. So I began to not argue with them or get upset with them, but to begin praising the lord for my salvation, and my assurance of salvation. When I was invited to pray, what I did was, in my prayers, to preach the gospel in miniature through prayer and praise. You know what? Nobody ever said a word, yet it did not stop them from calling on me to pray the opening prayer for bible reading and so fourth. One time an Adventist gave me the highest praise I think one could expect from an Adventist, he said in public, 'I think you are a true Christian.' I thought, 'Yes, and I think you are not.' But I said nothing, but instead my heart goes out to those that are blinded for whatever reason. And I see I'm blabbering tonight, so I'll quit. It sure burdens my heart for these people though. Thanks you all for putting up with me all this long, you all are the best. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3341 Registered: 10-2004  |
River, The quote about the churches being under satan's control actually comes from Ellen White's demon guide:
Obviously, she was blaspheming the Holy Spirit, saying that the body of Christ was Satan-possessed! Well, quoting her demon guide as authority. Sadly, Adventists read that and believe it. I don't know why people (such as Christian apologists) focus on what Joseph Smith said about the Christian churches, but don't seem to realize that EGW said that the entire body of Christ was possessed by Satan! It's one of the worst things she ever wrote, or that any false prophet could ever utter! And some people (former SDAs and never beens, including Walter Martin) think that she was a Christian and that she wasn't a false prophet!! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on August 15, 2010) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6545 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well go figure Jeremy, its beyond me, what does it take for a person to decide the difference between Christianity and garbage such as she wrote? Like I said, under the litmus test of the new covenant, is the question, does it edify and upbuild the Body of Christ? That fails the litmus test of both the new or the old covenants. River | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 886 Registered: 2-2008 |
Jeremy, This is the sad thing about that quote. Adventists are so indoctrinated to believe that everyone is deceived that they will throw out everything you try to point out to them (even if it's directly from the Bible). What ties in to all this is that they've been taught that to really understand the Bible... you should be studying it with the pastor or through their quarterlies. Is there a quote from egw about that? My mother and my MIL think that the only way I can understand the Bible correctly is if I study with the pastor. If I study on my own... that's where things can go badly. They believe that you can't trust the Holy Spirit to lead you into truth while you're reading God's word. They constantly ask us,"who are you following?" or "who's interpretation do you use?" To me, I find it so exciting to study my Bible now because I know that the Holy Spirit is going to lead me into truth. and River... what you wrote earlier that in the new covenant God is revealed in us through Christ is something an adventist cannot understand. Rather than Christ being in us to transform us, they see that Christ is only there to help them in case they "might" break one of the 10C's. Also, they argue that if Christ is in you, then you will keep the 10C's perfectly because we know that Christ didn't sin. So the evidence or "litmus" test of a Christian who truly has Christ in them is someone who worships and keeps the Sabbath. Everyone else is "nominal". The whole "nominal" thing cracks me up. For one thing, to understand that we were children of wrath, living in darkness makes us all "nominal". Also, I believe that either you are a Christian or you are not. No woman is a "nominally" pregnant woman. She is either pregnant or not. Same with Christianity. vivian | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 437 Registered: 4-2007 |
From The Remnant Dictionary Without the proper interpretation by the Spirit of Prophecy, scripture cannot be understood or trusted: I am instructed to say ... we are not to receive the words of those (apostates) who come with a message (scripture) that contradicts the special points (Sabbath, 1844, IJ… - our distinctives) of our faith. They (apostates) gather together a mass of Scripture (taken literally and in context), and pile it as proof around their asserted (Sola Scriptura) theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while (some of) the Scriptures (are inspired and) are God's word (many are just the personal opinions of the writers, mainly Paul, and are to be disregarded) , and are to be respected (but not taken literally), (ignore) the application of them, if such application moves (contradicts the Spirit of Prophecy) one pillar (Sabbath, 1844, IJ… - our distinctives) from the foundation that God (the Spirit of Prophecy) has sustained these fifty years, it is a great mistake (to study Sola Scriptura). He (apostates) who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit (the writings of the Spirit of Prophecy) that gave power and force to the past messages that have come (by more than just a Prophet) to the (chosen) people of God (the Remnant Church).--Letter 329, 1905 (Selected Messages, Vol 1, page 160-161) EDITOR'S NOTE: The words in blue were added to clarify the implications of this statement penned by our inerrant Prophetess | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 887 Registered: 2-2008 |
Jonvil... LOL X 2!! I about blew mac n cheese! Thx for the clarification! This is a keeper! | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 916 Registered: 12-2007 |
Ya know.... I think maybe she had something there.. IF you take her words and apply them to the SDA denomination ! From Jeremys post 3341 above "Satan has taken full possession of the (ADVENTIST) churches as a body. The sayings and doings of men(EGW) are dwelt upon instead of the plain, cutting truths of the Word of God." " When the truth in its simplicity and strength, as it is in Jesus, is brought to bear against the spirit of the(SDA CHURCH) world, it at once awakens the spirit of persecution. Very many (SDA'S)who profess to be Christians have not known God. The natural heart has not been changed, and the carnal mind remains at enmity with God. They are Satan's faithful servants, notwithstanding they have assumed another name." I think maybe she was upside down and backwards in her application of what she was saying. Francie | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 83 Registered: 5-2009 |
Francie - well done! Exactly what I was thinking - you got it right. Such a subtle deception to make SDAs think it is other churches & believers when it is the truth about SDAism. | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 484 Registered: 5-2009 |
Yes, Skeeter & 1john! A very clever upside down counterfeit that snares many. If a counterfeit bill is obviously wrong, it won't fool anyone. The longer I am out and learning the Bible, the more obvious it becomes. A dear 80 yo, kind, sweet sda woman said recently, "Jesus says in the Bible that the angels will come and place the babies (that have died) in our arms at the 2nd coming." Another woman and I had to (kindly) say, "That is not in the Bible!" This is very scarey to me--after so many years of living, she does not even know her Bible enough to know that's from EGW. She didn't let it bother her, just said, "Oh" and went on with her conversatation. My heart aches for these very nice, kind people. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 438 Registered: 4-2007 |
Down is up, bad is good and White is... black | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 84 Registered: 5-2009 |
Nowisee, My husband & I had a conversation yesterday about the flood - did it ever rain before the flood? I asked what does the bible say? I never know if what I am saying the bible says, is really what the bible says, or whether it came from some EGW book. And I've been reading the bible alone, all the way through since Aug '06. I have to check EVERYTHING. J9 | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 489 Registered: 5-2009 |
Me, too, 1john--and sometimes it's not even details, it's basic ideas that I just 'know' are true, you know what I mean? Still unlearning. I mean, they messed with the words of Christian hymns, for Pete's sake, to make them compatible with sda doctrine. At least they didn't change the words of "Redeemed" --they goofed and left some gospel in some songs we sang. I think the truth of those songs was used by God to get through to me on some level, so that when I heard the true gospel I didn't fight against it. | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 159 Registered: 3-2009 |
J9, I looked in Genesis 2: 5,6 : " And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground." So it looks like it did not rain before the flood. I had always heard that a mist came up from the ground before the flood but I wanted to check the Bible and make sure this was not an "Ellenism." | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 85 Registered: 5-2009 |
Believer, We looked & found that same text & read it. Going on it says that then man was created, God planted a garden in Eden etc. ESV v5 reads 'When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up--for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground,. . .' Man was created, sinned, sent out of the garden, would toil & work the ground. At some point small plants of the field sprang up & man was there to work the ground - so at some point, did it rain? before the flood? This is all the bible tells us. Then we get to the flood story & are simply told that God would send a flood; that it began to rain. It never says this is the very first time; or that never before had it rained; etc. I think everything else I thought I knew must have come from EGW extra-biblical writings. Don't we need to be careful not to add to what the bible says? It is possible that it did not rain until the flood, but maybe it didn't? I certainly feel I need to be careful what I say as bible 'truth' so that I do not misquote or misuse or mislead. Certainly our salvation does not hang on the validity of this point. It's just my most current example of my process of becoming rooted & grounded in God's Word. Therefore I am double checking everything! J9 | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 160 Registered: 3-2009 |
yes I agree with you, J9. I stand corrected! The Bible actually does not say whether it rained before the flood or not. It doesn't say whether the mist coming up from the ground continued after Adam sinned. So we can't really say for sure one way or another. It is very probable that the story I heard all my life about it had never rained before the flood did come from Ellen. It may be in the Bible Story books, but since I threw all mine out several years ago, I can't check it out! LOL | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 87 Registered: 5-2009 |
Believer, I can't check it out either because I got rid of all my books this spring. I'm thinking it might have been Patriarchs & Prophets - who knows? I just had a very detailed idea about how much faith it took & how strange Noah must have been to build a boat on dry inland ground & preach a flood was coming when it had never rained. I can hardly trust my own thoughts. But God is faithful & promises to renew & transform our minds. J9 |
