| Author | Message | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1742 Registered: 6-2006  |
This is a question for my "formers", My husband brought up the Laodicean Church and the 144,000 today ~ he may be a little rusty with his SDA knowlege. Basically he was referring to, in the end times, believers becoming complacent and the 144,000 will be the remnant. Here are my questions ~ What is the basic SDA doctrine or teaching on this and how significant is it (I mean, is it tied to the IJ?). To contrast this, what is is the basic school of thought from mainstream Biblical Scholars? Thanks!  Leigh Anne | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2481 Registered: 8-2004  |
The SDA church identifies itself as the Laodicean church (or, alternatively, "these last days" as the Laodicean period). Each person who has been converted to SDAism is encouraged to live up to 'all the light they have' and to continue learning to gain more light. The 144,000 is said to be made up of those who finally live up to 'all the light there is', and therefore will be found worthy to survive the end of probation (when meat eaters and other not so ready will be 'laid to rest') and on through all the plagues of the time of trouble and are alive to see Jesus come. Some think this will only be made up of 'the last generation' of SDA Christians and some think there are members of the 144,000 who have died, but will be raised at the 'special resurrection' in order to live through the time of trouble with the rest of the perfected saints. . . . There are arguments as to whether this is all the people 'saved under the third angel's message' or just all the perfected ones, and whether it is a literal or figurative number, and whether the 144,000 refers to individual peoples or heads of families, and and whether EGW is one of that number or not (when she saw them in vision she described herself as part of the number), etcetera, etcetera, and so forth! This famous quote: is often understood to be referring to the 144,000. I often heard references to 'preparing the 144,000' among those who were working with the youth. There's even a ministry and a magazine called "Last Generation" whose goal is to "prepare you for the final conflict between good and evil." (Message edited by helovesme2 on August 03, 2010) | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 38 Registered: 7-2010  |
http://www.amazingfiction.org/144000.shtml Bible Truth vs Adventist Truth (144,000) Excerpts form article: Seventh-day Adventists identify themselves as those special people of Revelation called the 144,000. The following points are from their Revelation Seminars: 1. The 144,000 are Spiritual Israel. Seventh-day Adventists teach that the 144,000 are not literally Jews but spiritual Israel: "...they are obviously spiritual Israelites."1 2. The 144,000 are Seventh-day Adventists. Seventh-day Adventists do not explictly state they are the 144,000, but this is only a thinly veiled ruse. Revelation Seminars, in describing the "characteristics" of the 144,000, makes it apparent that one must adhere to the teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in order to be a member of this elite group:2 They avoid dancing They do not wear jewelry They will not use tobacco They will not use alcohol They do not eat "unclean" meat; rather, Daniel's diet ("fruits, nuts, grains and vegetables") is "the best diet to have under test" They will not use "caffeinated beverages" Must keep "24-hour period known as the Sabbath" This tailor-made list is unique to Seventh-day Adventists. Very few, if any, denominations force these legalistic requirements upone their members. There is little doubt that Adventists view themselves as the 144,000. 3. The 144,000 is an end-time group arising after 1844. Seventh-day Adventists believe the 144,000 are a group of people that arises with the proclamation of the Three Angels' messages. As such, they believe the 144,000 to be an end-time group of people. "Because the prophecy refers to the end time... Only since 1844, when God's judgment began in heaven, could this special message of restoration, restoring men physically, mentally, and spiritually to the image of God, be proclaimed."3 ========== 3. Is the 144,000 an end-time group arising after 1844? Adventists say Rev. 14 describes a judgment scene, which they interpret as the Investigative Judgment, which supposedly began in 1844. Because the 144,000 appear in the same passage, Adventists insist the 144,000 could not arise prior to 1844. But is that what the Bible teaches? First, the date of 1844 is based upon an erroneous calculation of the 2300 "evenings-mornings" of Daniel 8:14. That subject is too vast to present here, but click here to examine that evidence. Second, Revelation 14 says nothing about a court-room-like setting of an investigative judgement of the righteous. On the contrary, it is about the execution of judgment (or justice) upon those who follow the beast (pagan Roman) power. Third, according to Peter, the time of judgment was commencing when he wrote his first epistle. Peter died in 64 AD, so this letter had to be written prior to then: ............ Pat | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1207 Registered: 3-2009 |
My father is very sad because he cannot be one of the 144,000, but his children can. You see, the Bible says that (Rev 14:4):"These are the ones who have not been defiled with women." Since women in prophecy usually is interpret as "church" that means that to be part of the 144,000 one cannot ever have been a member of another church but the SDA. Since he was born Catholic, he cannot be one, but his children were born SDA, so they can be. I wonder who is going to win the battle, the SDA or the JWs. They both claim that only they can be part of the 144,000 and no one else. Hec | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 743 Registered: 7-2004 |
Strange that if you eat meat or grew up in another church, you will be "laid to rest" before the great sda "time of trouble". That seems like more of a reward than a punishment. Who wants to go through a time when God's Spirit is removed and you actually feel lost! That is experiencing hell!! I guess it is seen as a privilege to be counted as one of the 144,000. In the Baptist church they believe that it is literally Jews. Divided up it represents the 12 tribes of Isreal. I haven't really studied it or accepted their interpretation fully, but it makes more sense than the sda version!! | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 264 Registered: 6-2008 |
When I reread the Revelation passage a few years ago, I started wondering why it would say, very specifically, 12,000 from this tribe and 12,000 from that tribe, naming each tribe of Israel by name. To me that meant it couldn't be simply a round general number of just any nationality of believers, and thus it couldn't refer to SDAs or any other group of Gentiles. I frankly don't know exactly how to interpret the passage, but I don't think it is referring to people who are plainly not Jews. And I never knew the Baptists or anyone else believed that until just now! | ||
| Angelcat Registered user Username: Angelcat Post Number: 177 Registered: 11-2008 |
Bb, I agree...I didn't really want to be part of the 144,000, and then I felt guilty for feeling that way...I wasn't alone though... I remember a retired SDA pastor whose favouite sermon topic was end times. And he always said he wanted to die before then. I dot get hwy he chose that prt of EGW t belivethough..he certainly didn't belive everything...he mentioned in almost every sermon that he was saved...I often wondered why he never really found freedom, but maybe he had a message Adventists needed to hear. Actually, I know he did...I think there are many people around my age now who still believe in God because of him. Atually, this reminds me of a question,that actually is related to the op...what do most churches believe about the 7 churches? The pastor I mentioned did NOT believe the SDA curh was supposd to be Laodicea, he beleived it was to be Philedelphia. I always agreed with, as did my family, altho that was about their only point of agreement. I really should reread Revelation..as soon as I get the money, i'm gonna get a new Bible. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11517 Registered: 12-2003  |
Leigh Anne, these excellent answers reveal that even within Adventism there is uncertainty and confusion about the 144,000. Mary summed up what I remember...it was never certain it was literal or figurative, the last generation or a sum total, etc etc...but for sure they were the closest thing to perfection possible. Pat, the Revelation seminar information is also interesting--and also a bit inconclusive! Yenc, yes--there's a reason those tribes are named by name! I don't pretend to have the details figured out, but for sure, those tribe names are significant! Colleen | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2010 |
Formers, Were you ever taught that EGW said that each of the 12 gates to the New Jerusalem represent a different personality and we will enter the city through the gate that is closest to our personality or something like that? I tried to find it online but couldn't. However I did find that someone had submitted the following question to someone on the AllExperts site a few years ago, so it wasn't my imagination. =============== Hi, In Revelation it talks about the 12 gates in heaven. I have heard that Ellen G. While said each gate represents a different personality. So depending on your personality will depend on which gate you go through. Is this true? ============ The expert was't familiar with the statement so could not give her an answer. It's amazing how the stuff we've been taught suddenly creeps up. If you know anything about this, kindly share it. Pat | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2483 Registered: 8-2004 |
I have heard that before, but I think it was from one of EGW's students rather than her. There was a book called "The Cross and It's Shadow" by Stephen Haskell, I believe, that promoted that idea. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6456 Registered: 9-2006  |
To sum up Adventism, its total bedlam. Yall didn't know I could write a short post did you? I always understood the 144000 were jews, not gentiles. If that is right ( and I don't feel I have to be) that's gonna leave a lot of Adventist and JW's out. Is your hubby Jewish? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1744 Registered: 6-2006 |
That's what I thought too. It's one of those things that, at least at my church, we didn't focus on. I've always heard it's Jewish people as well. It never ceases to amaze me how EGW took ownership of so many obscure Bible verses and made them all about the SDA church! Leigh Anne | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 139 Registered: 3-2009 |
We just finished studying Revelation in the Wed nite Bible study at the Baptist church we are attending now. Yes, they do teach that the 144,000 are literal Jews from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Revelation makes much more sense to me now that I have read and studied another interpretation than SDA. Pat, I have heard that each of the 12 gates represented the different personalities of the apostles and whichever personality we most resembled, that was the one we would enter into. I don't know remember if it came from Ellen White or someone else's idea. Wow, I had completely forgotten that bit of info until I read your post! | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 868 Registered: 2-2008  |
So here's my question... if 144,000 represents the perfect adventists that are living in "perfect harmony with God's Law" aka 10C's, then how are they separated into 12 tribes? Which adventist is going to belong to which tribe? I was afraid of being alive during the "time of trouble" too. I took comfort in that I believed that God knew me so well that He would allow me to die before the whole event. It's unbelievable the amount of junk and fear that I lived with as an adventist. vivian | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2491 Registered: 8-2004 |
Speaking of the 144,000, here's a song I ran back across recently - It's a translation from Portuguese "by: SDA Reform Movement":
The SDA Reform Movement tended toward the interpretation that the 144,000 began to be made up in 1844, and that there would be a special resurrection near the beginning of the time of trouble so that all the 144,000 would live though the plagues and be alive to see Jesus come . . . | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 305 Registered: 6-2008 |
I never heard that "personality" theory about the gates before! Weird! What's personality got to do with anything?? | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1757 Registered: 6-2006 |
I imagine you'd have to use personalities A) to "explain" or associate dispositions with all the names of the tribes (something only an adult with a 6th grade education could conjure up) and B) because a personality is the closest thing SDA's can relate to a living spirit. Could it be AT ALL possible that the Bible simply means what it says?? Not as long as they have to make Ellen White fit... | ||
| Believer247 Registered user Username: Believer247 Post Number: 149 Registered: 3-2009 |
Maybe "personality" = "character." I had always heard that our characters were all we could take to Heaven. |
