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Message |
Michaelsavedbygrace
Registered user
Username: Michaelsavedbygrace
Post Number: 61
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 10:57 am: |     |
P.S.
I wanted to show my appreciation for Colleen. Inoticed that she let this issue drop and did not post on it last night.
I said to myself, "That woman is showing wisdom."
I want the same thing.
THANK YOU COLLEEN!
I think you and I will have our differences but will end up as very good friends. |
Joyfulheart
Registered user
Username: Joyfulheart
Post Number: 735
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 11:59 am: | |
Michael,
This group is not divided at all. We disagree sometimes, but we are not divided. We are unified by Jesus and the gospel and are brothers and sisters in Christ. You, having accepted Jesus as your Sabbath rest are included.
This group isn't like the SDA church. We don't need to argue the points until we all agree. Bible scholars have been debating Calvinism versus Arminianism for centuries. We're not going to solve those issues here.
Sometimes we do get caught in very lively discussions, but we realize that essentials are essentials and non-essentials are non essentials.
This isn't like the SDA church where you are more important if you know more. We're all on a journey following Jesus.
Nobody (if I know these people like I think I do) is trying to walk all over your faith. I think what some may be trying to say is that you still have a whole lot of Adventist baggage -like we all do. Even if you've not believed some of the doctrine for a while, you've still been steeping in the (Adventist) stew for a while. Give yourself some time away from Adventism sitting under some quality teaching from people who haven't been effected by Ellen White's writings. We were taught so much that was wrong - and if you grew up from the start with it - well, there's going to need to be some un learning and relearning. Non of us know what those things are ahead of time.
Be patient with yourself and become a learner. None of us know it all. What I think most here realize is that we were taught some pretty major (and a whole lot of minor) things wrong. I've been out for about two years and was studying the IJ, the 2300 days, Ellen White and a host of other issues for a long time before everything came to a screeching halt. I was only in the church for six years and was still horribly effected. The IJ, state of the dead and a whole lot of other doctrines have tentacles that reach out and create unscriptural ideas everywhere.
Adventists in trying to explain and have answer for everything created some pretty wrong ideas - and taught them dogmatically. Changing things you have believed for a lifetime takes time. Give yourself the gift of it. You don't have to prove how right you are. You'll be accepted here wherever you are. Ask some questions, share your story, get to know us. We're nice people!
The gospel we learned in the Adventist church was really wrong. The problem is that Adventists use the right words with the wrong meanings. That is a tricky mess to untangle.
We are all - even those who have been out for YEARS finding things we were taught incorrectly because of EGW or whatever. We don't gang up on anybody here!
This is a safe place to explore our lives in Christ outside of Adventism. I'm so sorry you're feeling bullied. I don't think that was ever anyone's intent. Having been around for a while, I can say that people genuinely care for each other here. Some may have chosen to not get involved in this discussion for whatever reason, but I can assure you that it was not a follow the crowd bullying thing.
When we disagree, we disagree - and some of us do on different issues, but it is not personal.
You started this thread because you wanted to discuss this issue. Some disagreed with your position. It was not personal. We're after truth here. Calvinism versus Arminianism is a hot topic for many people - and it did get heated. I'm wondering what you expected.
OK, Michael - you can, but don't need to respond to this.
Fresh start time... Hi! I'm Joyfulheart. Welcome to the forum! |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3279
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 12:00 pm: | |
Michael, I'm sorry but I find this hilarious. Did you know that there is another former SDA forum out there whose founding members (Calvinists) have ridiculed this FAF forum for not preaching Calvinism and for being too Arminian?? That other forum was started by Calvinists who were unhappy with FAF. Now you say that there are a bunch of Arminians who are unhappy with FAF.
This is all ridiculous. Nothing that any of us have criticized on this thread even had to do with Arminianism vs. Calvinism or the Calvinist version of predestination. I don't know why you can't see this.
Millions of Arminians, who reject Calvinist predestination, still believe in once saved always saved, for example. And most Arminians believe that God did not elect everyone but only those whom He "foreknew," which they interpret as meaning that He predestined everyone that He knew was going to choose Him out of their own free will.
I hope you will see that this entire thread had nothing to do with Calvinist predestination.
In fact, as far as I know (and she can correct me if I'm wrong), Asurprise is one of our non-Calvinist members you are talking about, and she was concerned about the gospel you are teaching!
How can I make this any clearer? We're not concerned about you not accepting Calvinist predestination. We are concerned about you teaching a false gospel of salvation by works, instead of the true Gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ's sacrifice alone.
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on July 23, 2010) |
Michaelsavedbygrace
Registered user
Username: Michaelsavedbygrace
Post Number: 62
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 12:21 pm: | |
I promised to keep the confidence of the people who wrote me, but since you seem oblivious to the fact that this is how some people are feeling I will share just enough of one letter, that it will not reveal who sent it.
"Hi, Michael!
You got pretty well "dog piled" indeed! I want to assure you that I thought your paper on the Book of Life was the most sensible and believable treatise I've read on the subject of "predestination." I am definitely NOT a Calvinist, and before I realized how strongly Calvinism is defended on the Forum, I said a few things that got attacked (but not as badly as you did!)."
This person stopped participating in group discussions . . . . "more significantly because of the once-saved-always-saved rhetoric that I couldn't accept. When I voiced an objection, I got "shouted down", not by actual loud voices, but by strong contradictions that floored me." This person tried to share their faith, and this is what happened. "But when I mentioned it to some people, WOW--you would have thought I had the mark of the beast myself!"
"I steer clear when I sense something like that will happen. I had an ominous feeling that might happen to you when Hec started "heckling" you on the forgiveness thing."
"But, like you, I have my own integrity, and after being under the SDA influence for most of my life, I'm wary of anyone who tries to coerce me to see things their way or else! I will never go back to that kind of bondage!"
"In Christian love from another one whose name is still in the Book of Life (Praise God!!),"
I am sure that those who are "sharing" their predestination, have no clue they have hurt people, AND MADE THEM FEEL BULLIED. Just because you are not aware of it does not change the fact that it has happened.
Like I said I am sure that everyone had no intention of hurting anyone, but its time this forum OWNED this and saw this for what it is. People do have differences on this topic, and it is hurtful to condemn, and label as not being under the gospel etc.
I am just as ready for a fresh start as anyone Joyful. When one side is hurt and the other side is apparently unaware that any offense has been made, then hurt feelings result. Just ask any wife who has been placed in that situation by her husband. That is what is happening here. I am just the newest person to have this happen to. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3280
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 12:32 pm: | |
Michael,
This is the last time I am going to say this, since you are ignoring what I am saying completely.
No one on this forum (at least in recent history) has condemned anyone as "not being under the gospel" for rejecting Calvinism or Calvinist predestination.
It is heresy according to all Evangelical Christians, whether Calvinist or Arminian, to teach that we are saved by our works or that we lose our salvation by our works.
Furthermore, what you are teaching about predestination/election is NOT Arminianism. Will you please acknowledge this?
If you've studied these issues, you should be well aware of this. The "U" in Calvinism's TULIP stands for "Unconditional Election" and it corresponds to the Arminian teaching of "Conditional Election."
The Arminian teaching of Conditional Election is that God only elected those whom He knew would choose to believe in Jesus Christ out of their own free will, and that He did not elect those who would reject Jesus. In other words, there are "conditions" to God's election.
You are actually teaching a form of the Calvinist teaching of "Unconditional Election" since you say that God unconditionally elected everyone.
In some ways, that is closer to Calvinist teaching than it is Arminian teaching!
In any case, it is not the Arminian teaching of "Conditional Election."
I just feel like I am not being understood at all here. Even if Michael will not reply to this, can I at least get some responses from those of you reading this, about whether or not I've made this clear enough?
Jeremy
(Message edited by jeremy on July 23, 2010) |
Michaelsavedbygrace
Registered user
Username: Michaelsavedbygrace
Post Number: 63
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 12:35 pm: | |
Look guys,
I am not going to be on this forum for a while. I need a break! I need to get back to reading several books on my to do list (DM Canright and many others), and reading the Bible and writing out a few things. I am going to take a "sabbatical" from the forum LOL. I WILL BE BACK! You have not run me off so don't worry. I am going to take a cue from Colleen and just drop this. I will not post replies any more on this post. I will not post anything on this forum at all - at least for a while. But I will be back, when I think we can have a fresh start.
Time heals all.....
Until then,
Michael |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6418
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 2:14 pm: | |
Jeremy,
You spoke well and clear, might I advise you not to worry about this guy?
Michael, might I suggest you sit back and find out what you can learn from these kind people?
I guess you have learned a few things and are all hot to shout it too the world around you. But you come on a little heavy too some of the most precious people I know or will ever know, Jeremy being one of them.
I'm glad you are excited about Jesus, but so are those you are talking too.
Like I said, you have found some of the most precious people in the world this side of heaven, you would be good advised to get to know them and take advantage of this opportunity.
River |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1178
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 5:29 pm: | |
I fail to see where Hec was heckling.
Hec |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1309
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 5:32 pm: | |
Thanks River 
Jeremy; I don't think Michael CAN understand what you (and I and the others) are saying. It's clear that he has a spirit of rage blinding him. He obviously thinks he is being attacked whenever anyone disagrees with him and he shouts the person down as loudly and unpleasantly as he can. He is doing what he's accusing others of doing.
Michael if you can read this; I'm not a Calvinist either. I don't understand those passages so I just hold them in "tension" so to speak; until I DO understand them. As far as what I've written to you, I wasn't referring to Calvinism or Armenianism at all. I was referring to your saying our salvation was up to our "overcoming sin through faith in Jesus". That's such a tricky phrase. Being saved by "overcoming sin through faith in Jesus" sounds so good, but it's still works. When a person gets saved, they are saved and their sins, past, present and future have been forgiven! Otherwise the apostle John wouldn't have been able to say: "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake." 1 John 2:12 and the apostle Paul wouldn't have been able to say: "by grace you HAVE BEEN saved" (Eph. 2:8,9; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5).
Michael; read our posts and you will see when you have read enough that we are not the horrible people that you seem to think we are. Also "walk by the Spirit" Galatians 5:16. Your "fits of anger" (Galatians 5:20) are of the flesh. |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1310
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 5:34 pm: | |
I don't see it either Hec. You were just asking honest questions and then when he got offended at you, and threatened to leave the forum; you were gentle and humble to him. |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6426
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 3:33 am: | |
Hec hecked a pec of heckeled pepper, can you say that while rubbing your head and patting your belly Hec? |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1185
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 11:40 am: | |
No, but is the pepper is hot, it's going to burn your tongue.
Hec |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3284
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 12:50 pm: | |
"In this fast age, the less exciting the food, the better. Condiments are injurious in their nature. Mustard, pepper, spices, pickles, and other things of a like character, irritate the stomach and make the blood feverish and impure. The inflamed condition of the drunkard's stomach is often pictured as illustrating the effect of alcoholic liquors. A similarly inflamed condition is produced by the use of irritating condiments. Soon ordinary food does not satisfy the appetite. The system feels a want, a craving, for something more stimulating." (Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 339, paragraph 3.) |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1188
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 1:13 pm: | |
Oh oh. Sorry River. Can't have the pepper. Not only will it burn your tongue, but it will irritate your stomach and probably awake in you the animal passions.
Hec |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3285
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 1:22 pm: | |
quote:"Our tables should bear only the most wholesome food, free from every irritating substance. The appetite for liquor is encouraged by the preparation of food with condiments and spices. These cause a feverish state of the system, and drink is demanded to allay the irritation. On my frequent journeys across the continent, I do not patronize restaurants, dining car, or hotels, for the simple reason that I cannot eat the food there provided. The dishes are highly seasoned with salt and pepper, creating an almost intolerable thirst. . . . They would irritate and inflame the delicate coating of the stomach. . . . Such is the food that is commonly served upon fashionable tables, and given to the children. Its effect is to cause nervousness and to create thirst which water does not quench....Food should be prepared in as simple a manner as possible, free from condiments and spices, and even from an undue amount of salt.
[SPICED FOODS CREATE DESIRE FOR BEVERAGES WITH MEALS--570]" (Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 339, paragraph 5.)
|
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 1322
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 1:36 pm: | |
Yeah, that "intolerable thirst" would create a craving for water and Ellen said you should not drink water with your meals!
She also replaced the "Water of Life" with books such as that filled with many, many rules; so many that a person would be completely distracted from even seeking the "Water of Life!" |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6427
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 3:45 pm: | |
If dear old Ellen would have had the privilege of soldiering in the field for about a month and having nothing but c-rats to eat, she would have appreciated a little Louisiana hot sauce to make it palatable.
In fact I would have liked her to bath in a steel helmet for about a month.
I wonder if that would give her different visions about red hot peppers? |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 6428
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 3:51 pm: | |
When I came back to the base to my young wife, I had some rip roaring animal passions, it was surely all the Louisiana hot sauce I et.
My two oldest boys owe their existence to Louisiana hot sauce!
Since they were both borned at Ft. Hood, I should have name one of them Louisiana, and the other, Saucey. |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 1737
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 4:06 pm: | |
TMI River!
|
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1189
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 4:08 pm: | |
Oh, come on, Asurprise. Didn't you read that the "intolerable thirst" is not for water but for liquor? She did not say you could not drink liquor with your meals!
Hec |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3286
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 4:23 pm: | |
Those weren't even the best quotes! LOL. Take a look at this one:
quote:Some have so indulged their taste, that unless they have the very article of food it calls for, they find no pleasure in eating. If condiments and spiced foods are placed before them, they make the stomach work by applying this fiery whip; for it has been so treated that it will not acknowledge unstimulating food." (Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 340, paragraph 1.)
Jeremy |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2206
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 5:20 pm: | |
Oh darn,
I guess Old Ellen wouldn't aprove of my chili oatmeal breakfast chased down with a pot of coffee made from beans I roast myself. Well, I stayed away from the spices and had bacon instead this morning...along with the standard pot of coffee.
Fearless Phil |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11475
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 11:16 pm: | |
What a relief, Phil...bacon instead of spices...
I'm sure Ellen must have know what she was saying from first-hand experience. Her "vinegar addiction" likely taught her al about the "liquor inflamed stomach"...
Colleen |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1566
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 - 2:38 pm: | |
I know I'm coming to this way late, but I seldom check the forum these days. However, I would just like to reinforce the excellent point Jeremy has already made very well. The debate going on in this thread has nothing to do with Arminiaism versus Calvinism. It's really a debate between orthodox Christianity (which includes both Arminians and Calvinists) and an aberrant doctrine often referred to as "modified universalism" (although its unorthodox proponents prefer the dubious term "biblical universalism"). To suggest the debate in this thread is between two orthodox positions really confuses the main point. It's really a debate about whether or not orthodox Christianity has been in error over the millenia or not. Thanks for pointing that out Jeremy. You're a great defender of the faith once for all delivered to the saints. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3291
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 - 4:05 pm: | |
I appreciate your kind words, Chris. Thanks.
Good to see you around.
Jeremy |
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