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| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 118 Registered: 8-2006 |
When discussing Adventism way back when (in Maryland) a Jewish friend of mine said the Jews today are still under all the Law, all of it. She said their belief is that Christians are to follow the 7 Laws of Noah, not all the Law because that was specifically given the the Jewish nation. I heard Christian Jew on tv a while back say how Christians should not observe the whole law, which includes the Torah, but instead follow the 7 Laws of Noah.. Does anyone know what this means?? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2468 Registered: 8-2004  |
Here's a link to the Seven Laws of Noah on Wikipedia. | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2010 |
Hello All, My name is Patricia Allen and I am an ex-Adventist and a newbie on this site. This is my first post. I was an SDA for over fifty years and I worked for the denomination for 37 years. I have been FREE from Adventism for about two years. I studied my way out and I am happier than I have ever been in my life. While I was studying (still am), I was attempting to answer every question that I wondered about and decided to email a Rabbi regarding the law. SDAs try to hang onto the Ten Commandments because they say they are God's eternal moral laws and they also divide the Torah into categories such as moral, civil, health laws, ceremonial laws, etc. From my study God said that the Israelites were to keep all of His commands, decrees and laws. The Torah was a unit of 613 laws; break one...break all. At any rate, I figured since the law was given to the Israelites, they should be an authority regarding its purpose. So out of curiosity, I inquired of a Rabbi via email. Following is a copy of the email: ========================================== From: Patricia Allen I understand that the Torah consists of 613 laws including the Ten Commandments. Are the 613 commandments considered a unit or are there categories like civil, moral and ceremonial laws? When Scripture speaks of The Law, is it speaking of the entire law (Torah)? Can the Ten Commandments be separated from the Torah? Thanks for your response Response: Shalom Patricia, I like your question, as there are some very important key concepts contained within, important to Jews, and important to non-Jews. You have classified yourself as a ben Noach, which is quite correct, as anyone who is not Jewish is under G-d's Noachide Covenant. It is a positive thing to identify oneself honestly and straightforwardly as a ben Noach for this is the direction G-d wants every non-Jew to take. BTW: One should not think that G-d's Noachide Covenant is a simple set of seven laws. It is nothing of the kind. It is an entire way of thinking, an entire way of living, and it is a philosophical and intellectual exercise without end. As to the Ten Commandments, there is no such thing. I realize that everyone thinks it is the Ten Commandments, and therefore calling it anything else would be troublesome, and as so even most knowing people stick to the title. However, the Hebrew term for "Ten Commandments" would be, "Aseres Mitzvos," and that is NOT what these commandments are called. They are called the "Aseres HaDibros," the Ten STATEMENTS. The Rambam (Maimonides) explains to us that the Aseres Hadibros are actually 14 commandments, couched within Ten Statements. You ask if the Aseres Hadibros stand alone away from the Torah, away from the 613? No, they do not. They are a reflection of G-d's complete law to the Jewish people. The 613 do not stand alone either. AND, the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach (Seven Laws of Noah) also do not stand alone. G-d's covenants to the Jews and to the rest of humankind are all encompassing modes of daily behavior. What needs to be clearly understood is that G-d's laws to the Jewish people are NOT the same as G-d's laws to everyone else, and a person is to learn and follow HIS set of laws, be they Jewish or Noachide. He is not to become confused and think he is to follow the other person's rules. The laws making up BOTH G-d's Jewish and Noachide covenants were both given over at Sinai, and are both incorporated within G-d's Torah. The key to understanding those laws, both Jewish and Noachide, lie with the knowledgeable and observant of the recipients of those laws at Sinai, that is, the Jews. The Aseres HaDibros (Ten Statements) are NOT incumbent upon a ben Noach, and there are sections, such as Shaboos observance, which is not even allowed for a ben Noach. However, righteousness can be achieved BOTH by a Jew and by a ben Noach if he understands and follows his own set of rules, and makes them the basis for his continual improvement throughout his life. I do hope this is helpful. Regards, Eliahu Levenson JewishAnswers.org ============================================ What he says is compatible with Scripture. Also note that he said that Shaboos Observance (Sabbath Observance) is not even allowed by a Ben Noachide (Gentile). Israelite law was not meant for Gentiles to observe. Before the law there was the conscience. No written laws were given before Mt. Sinai. Prior to that God spoke to His people directly, through dreams and through the conscience. Romans 2:14-16 "14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." "There is no witness so dreadful, no accuser so terrible as the conscience that dwells in the heart of every man." (Polybius, c. 208-126 BC, History, bk. XVIII, 43). "When one listens to the voice of one's conscience, one sees that this conscience speaks in him first of all as a judge - strict and incorruptible, evaluating all one's actions and experiences. Often, it happens that some given action appears advantageous to a person, or has drawn approval from others, but in the depths of the soul this person hears the voice of conscience, "This is not good, this is a sin." Pasted from <http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/law/conscience.shtml> I believe that the reason there is so much confusion in the SDA church is because of deliberate deceit and the teaching that they (SDAs) are numbered with Israel. The following excerpt is taken from a booklet written by E. B. Jones entitled, “40 Bible-Supported Reasons Why You Should Not Be An SDA”. This is reason 24: The SDAs Teach that They, as a Denomination Are “Numbered with Israel” … “the Representatives of Heaven that Make Up the True Church of Christ”! In the book, “Ministry of Healing,” p 405 (edition of 1909), Mrs. White says: “We (or SDAs) are numbered with Israel. All the instruction given to the Israelites of old …, all the promises of blessings through obedience, are for us.” And in the book, Prophets and Kings,: p.74 (edition 1917), Mrs. White says: “wherein they (Israel of old) were weak, even to the point of failure, the Israel of God today (that is, the SDAs), the representatives of heaven that make up the true church of Christ, must be strong; for upon them devolves the task of finishing the work that has been committed to man, and of ushering in the day of final awards.” The Bible teaches that Israel, the natural ‘seed of Abraham,’ and the Church, the Spirit-begotten ‘body of Christ,” are wholly distinct from the other; ….. When SDAs and other religions take huge portions of Scripture that was intended indisputably and exclusively for Jews both in meaning and application and place it upon themselves, claiming to be Israel, appropriating to themselves Jewish promises and Jewish hopes; and would put the consciences of Christians under the bondage of Old Covenant legalism, they are doing Satan’s work and making Christ’s death in vain. Just thought I'd share. Blessings to all! | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2010 |
Interesting post! Good stuff! Thank you Patricia, and welcome to the forum! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8355 Registered: 3-2004  |
Patricia, I like what you asked the rabbi and I like his answer. Oh, and welcome to FAF. Very glad you are here. Diana L | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 124 Registered: 8-2006 |
welcome to FAF, thank you for the in-depth post  | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 732 Registered: 10-2006 |
Welcome to the forum Patricia! Wow! You worked for the denomination for 37 years?!! Praise the Lord for showing you truth! I'd love to hear more of your story when you're ready to share. I hope this forum is a blessing to you like it has been to me. (I'm a Patricia, too!) I had never even heard of the Noah's 7 laws. I'm glad though to not be under any! Eating meat from an animal that is still alive? How gross - and mean! I'm looking forward to getting to know you! Patty | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11464 Registered: 12-2003  |
Welcome, Patricia! I'm so glad you've joined us! Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1733 Registered: 6-2006  |
Patricia, welcome! What a great post. Looking forward to reading more from you. Leigh Anne | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 669 Registered: 11-2007 |
Patricia, Great post. You had me at "hello" Surfy | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 403 Registered: 1-2007  |
Paatricia, Great Post, I have spoken with a few Rabbi's myself on the very same topic, they have all answered in the same mannaer as above. Welcome to FAF, looking forward to reading more from you... Paul | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1734 Registered: 6-2006 |
Patricia, may I share your letter in our facebook pages? Leigh Anne | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2010 |
Thanks EVERYONE for the WARM welcome. I look forward to reading and being blessed by you. Yes, you may share my post as you deem fit. I'm for anything that will help people see truth. Leigh Anne, may I have the link to the Facebook pages? Yall have a good day now! Pat | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 223 Registered: 6-2008 |
Good morning, Patricia and Welcome! Some years ago I joined a Messianic Congregation. Few of the members were natural-born Jews, but about one fourth of the congregation were former SDAs. At that time, having left Adventism, I still felt "guilty" about breaking the Sabbath, and to me, Messianic fellowship, rituals, etc. seemed a good compromise. (I still love the music!) However, I see Messianic teachings differently now. It seems that a Jew who becomes a Christian would find Messianic worship a logical compromise--worship Yeshua HaMeshiach (Jesus the Messiah) every Shabbat (7th day Sabbath) and not abandon one's whole culture. They are, after all, still Jews, not Gentiles, after converting to Christianity! I can't speak for what is right for every converted Jew, of course, but I have come to see that it is inappropriate at the very least for Gentile Christians to be "pretend Jews"! | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 733 Registered: 7-2004 |
Welcome Patricia! That was so interesting! I have always had a curiosity about Jewish beliefs re: the commandments and also about what they believe about the soul when it dies. Does anyone know if what they believe differs from mainstream Christianity re: the soul at death? I remember hearing that there were Jews who believed that the soul hovered over the body of the deceased for three days, and that is why Jesus waited four days to raise Lazarus. Don't know if that is true but I remember reading it. | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1735 Registered: 6-2006 |
Here you go, Pat ~ http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=20496881896&ref=ts http://www.facebook.com/pages/Redlands-CA/Former-Adventist-Fellowship/49858453807?ref=search Again, thanks for posting that! The rabbi couldn't have stated it better. LA | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1736 Registered: 6-2006 |
Pat, if the first link doesn't work, just look up "Former Seventh-Day Adventists", with a profile picture of Jesus holding a lamb. One of our forum members, Kristen put it together. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2054 Registered: 4-2000  |
There is sometimes a misinterpretation applied to Romans 10:4 when casually reading it. Although the Greek word translated "end" can mean either "fulfillment" or "termination," this is not a reference to Christ's having perfectly fulfilled the law through His teaching (Matt. 5:17,18) or through His sinless life (2 Cor. 5:21). Instead, as the second half of the verse shows, Paul means that belief in Christ as Lord and Savior ends the sinner's futile quest for righteousness through his imperfect attempts to save himself by efforts to obey the law. In short, the end or ultimate purpose of the law is to point one to Jesus. Since the Decalogue is a brief summary of the Torah, with its 613 laws, it should not surprise us to find a ceremonial or ritual law in the Ten Commandments. Somehow our SDA friends insist that all the directives in the Decalogue are moral in nature. Without a ceremonial element (e.g., the Fourth Commandment) the Decalogue would not be a true summary of the Torah. Dennis Fischer (Message edited by Dennis on July 23, 2010) | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2010 |
Thanks for the link(s) Leigh Anne. | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 126 Registered: 8-2006 |
I don't know what the Jewish people believe as far as the afeterlife, but my friend told me they believe the soul to be eternal, she said it had to do with the fact that God 'breathed the breadth of life in to man's nostril', they believe this 'breadth' coming from God , is eternal as is God, the One who gave it. I don't know all theology or nitty gritty on the subject but the was like the 'dummies' version she gave me. |
