| Author | Message | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 127 Registered: 8-2006 |
They also believe in 'purification' in the afterlife, it's neither heaven nor hell though. She said they believe people who follow God's principles and are moral in this world, will have a part in the 'new world to come'. they don't banish us believers to hell, as some religions do. This all all know and it's pretty much the broken down 'Dummies' version. Maybe someone else can shed light? | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2010  |
Bb, Following is a basic link (Judiasm 101) regarding Jews belief regarding the afterlife. I hope it's helpful. http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm Pat | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1177 Registered: 3-2009 |
Pat, welcome to the Forum. I like your post very much. Hec | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2010 |
Dennis, your point is well taken. I never thought of it that way before ... the insertion of a ceremonial law to make the covenant document truly representative of the whole Torah. I read somewhere that the Ten Commandments were written the way contracts were written back then by having a 'sign' in the middle. In this case the sign was the Sabbath. Since SDA's have to uphold the Sabbath doctrine, I doubt if they will ever admit that the Sabbath is not moral but a feast as indicated in Leviticus 23. They will defend the Sabbath at all cost which is why the Ten Commandments are stretched, stressed-out, and solemnized. By the way, I am enjoying reading the posts. I finally feel I can come somewhere and relate and not feel like the odd ball.  | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thank you for your post about Leviticus 23 Pat. I had never seen that before! It is very clear to me. The sabbath IS ceremonial. And yet it's not at all clear to my husband, who is resisting vehemently. Our friends too & even our daughter are absolutely STUCK on the 'Biblical' 7th day Sabbath observance. I think it is because the whole focus in SDAism, for me at least, is on doctrine, & on being right about doctrine. I did not have Jesus Christ in focus until just this spring. Now I am reading the entire bible asking a couple of questions: What is God's rest? How does everything point to & teach about Jesus? What about Old covenant & New covenant? I am trusting the Holy Spirit to be my teacher - hence my list ID name. Welcome here! J9 | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2010 |
J9, the Holy Spirit will lead and guide you into ALL truth. When I lost my job the latter part of 2007, I spent 2008 doing just that, reading my Bible from cover to cover and researching questions that bothered me. I'd always let my 'busyness' keep me in procrastination mode saying I'd do it later. I was amazed at the things I discovered that were actually in the Bible that I had not known was there. Why? Because I came into the church at six years old, matriculated through Adventist schools and believed everything that I was told because there was a Bible verse to back it up. It didn't help that I was later employed by the denomination and as such, I was expected to live up to a certain standard as an employee. Back in the day when I was growing up, children were seen and not heard. You didn't ask questions. My dad was introduced to Adventism while serving a prison term via Bible studies from an inmate's parents. When he was released, he found the closest Adventist church, yanked me out of first grade in the public school system and enrolled me in church school. My life literally changed overnight and I didn't know why. Sabbaths were boring but we grinned and bore it. When asked about my new beliefs, the response was always, "We don't drink. We don't smoke. We go to church on Saturday. We can't dance. I can't wear my fingernail polish; I can't wear pants; I can't eat pork, and the list went on. Christ and a relationship with Him was a mute point because it was never stressed even though I went to church school. My dad was a mean man, very legalistic and abusive so my brother and I learned to do as we were told very early in life. Daddy even sang tenor in the choir and everyone really loved him. They had no clue of his 'dark' side. He brain washed us by telling us that people don't care about us, all they wanted was to know our business. The older I got, I realized this was his tactic to make sure we didn't discuss family business. So, I was being brainwashed at home and being deliberately deceived by the church. I got married at the age of 20, mostly to get away from my father. I lived in constant fear. When I was asked to come and work for the conference, I almost left the church because they weren't practicing what they preached. I had to come to terms and learn to love inspite of what people did but let Jesus be my example. It wasn't until I was married and had a child that I got my first real glimpse of what having a relationship with Jesus was all about. This came as a result of reading a book by Morris Venden entitled, 'Salvation by Faith and Your Will.' It became my second Bible and I shared it with many people. All this time, I really wasn't happy. I felt like I was just existing, but hung in there because the Bible said to remember the Sabbath day and I was all about trying to be obedient. I felt guilt, hopelessness and fear of the judgment. What if Jesus came to my name today, would I be ready? How will I stand without a mediator during the time of trouble? When I was pregnant with my daughter, I refused to read Child Guidance because I knew I couldn't do everything Ellen White advocated. I felt if I didn't know it would be alright but somewhere she said we are also accountable for opportunities that we don't take advantage of (paraphrased). It was a losing battle! I went to church faithfully; Sent my child to church school from K-12 (Pine Forge and Oakwood College). I was a Sabbath School Asst. Superintendent for years, Leader of the New Members Committee, sang in the choir, spoke on several occasions for Women's Day, etc. but I wasn't happy and I dreaded rushing on Fridays and I hated it when the sun set late on Saturdays. In 2005 my journey out of Adventism started. I received another email from a pastor friend of mine and was impressed to read it this time. It dealt with, Did Ellen White pass the Bible tests of a true prophet? I had heard about her plagiarizing but never really looked into it. Surely they were wrong! When I clicked on the links and began reading, I was astounded! I couldn't believe what I was reading. I stayed on the Internet, I downloaded and printed a plethora of articles. I shared with my daughter what I was discovering and she shared with me that she had stopped believing in Ellen White years ago when we discovered that there were two Great Controversys. She figured that if Ellen was a true prophet, she shouldn't have to rewrite and leave failed predictions out of her writings. She had done her research and had stopped going to church but kept it to herself because she didn't want her decisions to jeopardize my employment. Needless to say, we shared our discoveries together and I got so angry at being deceived that I rid my shelves of all the little red books and threw them out. My only regret is I should have burned them. I had spoken with several pastors during my initial studies and was amazed that some of them don't believe in Ellen White, some don't espouse her from the pulpit, some don't believe in the Investigative Judgment, etc. When I reached my decision after I thoroughly understood the Covenants, I made it known. I even wrote an ebook (I'm currently revising)entitled, 'Out of the House of Bondage' and sent it to a host of pastors and friends. I've even shared with them one on one. No one disputes what I have presented and they say we don't have to believe the same in order to remain friends. A really close friend of mine even wrote me a letter trying to encourage me not to buy Satan's lies regarding the Sabbath. I responded and pleaded with her to show me the error of my ways because I wanted to see my Lord face to face. She acknowledged having received my letter but there was no rebuttal nor future engagements to study together. We still talk often but not about the Bible. All of this is in my ebook. I still hear from some of the pastors on an regular irregular basis. It's mind boggling that they refuse to see. I honestly believe that when some of these men retire, they will no longer walk the same path. I was so overjoyed that I had not been instrumental in bringing anyone into the church because my conscience would dictate that I share with them what I had learned. I attended soul winning classes but I could never bring myself to witness like that because I felt I would be helping the church take their life away with the man made 'to do list' they would have to abide by before being accepted into the church, not to mentioned the new revelations after joining. I've often wondered why the Lord allowed me to go there and stay so long, but I know He knew what was best for me as an individual. My family was into all sorts of things and perhaps I needed the strictness of the Adventist church and a mean daddy to make sure I stayed the course UNTIL He knew I was ready and able to live without guilt. I really believe that if I had left before gaining this knowledge, I would have been riddled with guilt by always thinking that one day I need to return to the church. God has a plan for each of our lives and it is our job to trust Him. I'm getting better about not feeling uneasy going places and cleaning on Saturdays. I remember the first time I went shopping on Saturday, it's like I had to hurry back home and read Galatians to make sure I am really free. I am just thankful that my daughter is on board and I am thankful for this forum. This is my story in brevity and be assured that God will be with you every step of the way. Understanding the covenants was the key for me. I will keep you in my prayers. Pat | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1312 Registered: 7-2007 |
Welcome to the forum Pat! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8365 Registered: 3-2004  |
Pat, Thanks for your testimony. Your journesy with God is exciting. He is awesome, isn't He??Diana L | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2200 Registered: 5-2007  |
Pat, After just reading you wonderful story of how God has revealed himself in you life all I can say is that I am humbled to be able to say "welcome". I can see God has given you great insight into the real meaning of his word. And, on top of that, you have a very pretty smile.  Fearless Phil | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2010 |
Thanks Phil.  | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2009 |
Pat, so much of your story resonates with me - so similar. Except I did not have a mean father. Well, he was legalistic, but not mean. Quote:-------------------------------------------- All this time, I really wasn't happy. I felt like I was just existing, but hung in there because the Bible said to remember the Sabbath day and I was all about trying to be obedient. I felt guilt, hopelessness and fear of the judgment. What if Jesus came to my name today, would I be ready? How will I stand without a mediator during the time of trouble? When I was pregnant with my daughter, I refused to read Child Guidance because I knew I couldn't do everything Ellen White advocated. I felt if I didn't know it would be alright but somewhere she said we are also accountable for opportunities that we don't take advantage of (paraphrased). It was a losing battle! ------------------------------------------ I remember crying out 'I want to LIVE not just EXIST!!' I too became so depressed reading Child Guidance - felt totally hopeless to be able to do all that. This spring I got rid of every book in the house that I could find that was published by SDAs. My parents both worked for the R&H in Takoma Park & I had many many books. When I took them to the dumpster, I pitched them in as far back as I could, past where they could be seen or reached in case someone was dumpster diving. I prayed over them too that they would be destroyed, burned, not found or retrieved by any one. While I dropped my membership 20 years ago, it is only this spring that I have dropped the identity of SDAism. I have been in a nondeminational bible study for 10 years. Finally I am saying 'unchurched' when asked what my denomination is. I also say 'believer in Jesus.' Over 20 years ago my husband & I did Revelation Seminars on the university campus here where we live. We did not teach the lifestyle issues - well I excused them - and our pastor baptized the students into Jesus Christ, because that was what they wanted, not to be members of the SDA church; we never sent their names in to the conference. Thank God for that! We have questioned a lot for most of our married life. But it is hard to leave the identity behind. We have not attended church for about 5 years now. But my husband is resisting my active rejection of certain doctrinal beliefs. That's OK. He is God's job, the Holy Spirit's work to convict & convert. I love reading people's stories. They encourage me & help me realize I am not alone. I've read almost all the ones linked from the home page here. Yours that you just wrote could be posted there too, until you are ready to post it more completely. Thank you for sharing! J9 | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2055 Registered: 4-2000  |
Patallen, A hearty FAF welcome! With its weekly shewbread and special sacrificing requirements, the Sabbath was clearly ritual or ceremonial in nature. Actually, I have never met an Adventist who actually denied the significance of these facts when pointed out to them. The evidence is beyond dispute. Thus, the weekly Sabbath pointed to the Bread of Life and the Lamb of God. Moreover, beyond any doubt, Jesus is our true Sabbath Rest (Matt. 11:28-30; Col. 2:16-17;Heb. 4:1-10). In his classic book entitled "The Temple: Its Ministry and Services," the renowned Jewish historian, Alfred Edersheim (1825-1889), has a whole chapter devoted to the many details for the weekly Sabbath in the Temple. Interestingly, the twelve shewbread cakes (representing the twelve tribes of Israel) were made of the finest wheat flour that had passed through eleven sieves. These fresh cakes were deposited in a golden dish on the marble table in the porch of the sanctuary, where they remained until the Sabbath actually started. Edersheim adds: "The cakes were anointed in the middle with oil, in the form of a cross as described by Jewish tradition." That this "bread of His presence" laid in the northern or most sacred part of the Holy Place was later "vouchsafed in Christ...is scarcely necessary to explain at length." Even the ritual of circumcision trumped the Sabbath. On the other hand, moral laws are never trumped for any reason to this very day--not even for a nano-second. "The three public meat-offerings were: the twelve loaves of shewbread, renewed every Sabbath, and afterwards eaten by the priests; the omer, or sheaf of the harvest, on the second day of the Passover; and the two wave-loaves at Pentecost." Among many other things, the priests conducted the morning and evening sacrifices on the Sabbath as well. Truly, the entire Levitical system was not in sync with vegetarianism or veganism(smile). By the way, Ellen White attempted to make Alfred Edersheim's inspiring writings into "inspired" writings through her rampant plagiarism. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2010 |
Dennis, your post is very, very interesting. Thanx for the information. I was reading just today about the command from God to work the land for six years and let it have a SABBATH REST every seventh year. Doesn't that sound a lot like the 4th commandment ...work six days and rest on the seventh? Lev. 25:1-5 reads, "The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you, the land itself must observe a sabbath to the LORD. 3 For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops. 4 But in the seventh year the land is to have a sabbath of rest, a sabbath to the LORD. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards. 5 Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the grapes of your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest." Do you suppose SDAs would accept this as proof that the Sabbath is not a 'moral' law? Land certainly doesn't have a conscience. I re-read the 4th commandment and actually noticed (DUH) that there is nothing telling us to worship, it only said to rest and that God blessed it and made it holy. When you compare the weekly Sabbath with the other feasts and festivals in Lev. 23, all of them including the Sabbath were referred to as 'sacred' (holy) and they were instructed not to do any work. What makes the weekly Sabbath different? I had never seen this before or shall I say, when I read it, I didn't see the significance at the time. You mentioned in your post that moral laws are never trumped to this very day and, of course, that is true. When I was studying, I discovered that even the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread trumped the giving of the Sabbath. When the children of Isreal left Egypt AFTER observing the Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread, they left on the 15th of the month, which was the beginning of their new calendar month. Exodus 12:1-2 says, "1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, 2 "This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. If you read chapter 12:6, you will discover that they were to slaughter their passover lambs on the 14th day and vs. 29 says that at midnight Pharaoh made them leave after the death of their firstborn. The left on the 15th (the begining of their new calendar year). Now read Exodus 16:1, "The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt. 2 In the desert the whole community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. 3 The Israelites said to them, "If only we had died by the LORD's hand in Egypt! There we sat around pots of meat and ate all the food we wanted, but you have brought us out into this desert to starve this entire assembly to death." This is when the Lord tested them by having them to gather double on the 6th day so that they wouldn't have to gather any the next day. When the leaders saw them doing this, they went to Moses, vs. 22-23 reads, "22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much--two omers for each person--and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, "This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'" Here they are being INTRODUCED to the Sabbath, not being reminded of it as the SDA's claim. My point is this: The Israelites left Egypt on the 15th and it wasn't until the 15th day of the SECOND MONTH that the Sabbath was introduced, meaning they went weeks without keeping a Sabbath because they had no knowledge of one. Now riddle me that! Pat | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2010 |
Dennis, I thought more and more about your post and it supplied the missing link for me. When I read about the other feasts and festivals of Lev. 23, they all had a special kind of ritual and/or offering associated with them by fire, but I saw nothing but rest for the weekly Sabbath. You just supplied the answer for me with the changing of the shewbread, etc. Wow! Thanks a bunch! . | ||
| Angelcat Registered user Username: Angelcat Post Number: 170 Registered: 11-2008 |
Interesting info-the Jews I have asked about hte afterlife just say they don't really think about it, and concentrte on hte here and now. oh,and they also say if you ask 2 Jews a question, you'll ge 3 different answers....but i did get a lot of good info from them..i had no idea there was so muc more to Kosher than "don't eat unclean meat"! pat,i can indetify with so much of your story. My father wasn't mean exactly, but he was physically abusive at times...my mom was the problem, when it came to religion. I can so relate to explaining my beleifs as a series of "don'ts" don't wear pants, don't wear jewelery or makeup, etc etc. I remember feeling guilty as this did't give a positive impression of Adventism, and I resolved to be more positive, but couldn't really come up with anything positive to say... Dennis, you have answered any last niggling doubts I may have had about Sabbath...THANK YOU!!!! This whole thead has cleared some things up for me! | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 2056 Registered: 4-2000 |
Additionally, the bread of the Presence (shewbread) could not be over-baked, under-baked, nor irregularly-baked. It's weekly replacement for the Sabbath required the best Jewish culinary expertise with the highest quality ingredients. It was to be as perfectly baked and prepared as humanly possible. With all these ritualistic requirements, the weekly Sabbath as well as the tithing codes cannot be observed nor practiced without the Levitical system being fully in place. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2010 |
Dennis, this is some good info you are sharing. Also moral laws don't rest, they are on duty 24/7/365 and are for ALL people. Whereas, the 'keeping' of the Sabbaths and the rituals associated with them were for specific days (be they weekly, monthly or annually) and for the Israelites only. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2201 Registered: 5-2007 |
Pat, The "moral law" as expressed in the "Ten Commandment" portion of the "written code" was also directed only to the Hebrew people. Of course, Romans 1:18-32 makes it clear than the wrath of God is directed against all ungodliness and all are without excuse, Jew or Gentile. When dead in our sins we are without rest 24 hours per day, 7 days per week, 52 weeks per year (24/7/52). I hope you don't mind me picking on details because I really like the gist of what you are saying. Fearless Phil | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1187 Registered: 3-2009 |
We, wife and I, went to a church today, Sunday. The music was great, the sermon was greater, the people were nice. I have heard a few sermons on line and I like the way the preacher does it. www.metrocc.org. My wife liked it very much. There is a question thought that I need to ask the pastor, but I wanted to bounce it off the forum first. They have Bible study groups on Wednesday night, and there are several groups one can choose from. Each group is studying something different. One of the groups title right now is, "God's Law, our compass". That title kind of scared me. As I said in another post, this church has its roots on the Restoration movement of which I don't know much. Would that Bible study be something that I would have to worry about? Is that letting out some things about the law that could be dangerous? hec | ||
| Patallen Registered user Username: Patallen Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2010 |
No problem Phil because there's truth to your statement. I was trying to say that the moral principles are always at work and not necessarily how they affect saint or sinner. I always welcome any comment or rebuttal because that's how I grow. |
