| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11458 Registered: 12-2003  |
Michael, the issue here is not that you disagreed with me. A great many people here have disagreed with me but have continued to be interactive forum members. The issue here is two-fold. First, it's your use of Scripture. The new covenant is not the question. There are other things you have written, for example your Book of Life theory, that cannot be "proven". It is an interesting theory, but it is inconclusive for many reasons. There is not a consistent argument within Scripture itself to say that your conclusion is correct. Your argument makes certain assumptions and draws conclusions from figurative language passages that appear to oppose clear didactic passages in the epistles and in the gospel. These apparent contradictions do not mean you are necessarily wrong but that the truth may be something you nor any of us have been able to "see" yet. You cannot base doctrine on figurative and apocalyptic passages. Second, there is an issue of authority and humility. You have come to this forum, as everyone does, joining a community that in many ways functions as a virtual congregation. We get to know each other, share our stories, uphold and pray for one another. This is not a venue for a person with a "message" to find followers and a platform for his own teaching. You cannot come here and begin teaching the flock your own understanding of Scripture. This is a venue for learning, not for teaching your own insights. Moreover, this isn't about you and me "disagreeing", per se; the issue here is that my husband and I are entrusted with the duty to nurture and protect those who come here, who are broken and vulnerable and searching and needy. You cannot come here and assume the authority to be the "expert". Frankly, the Bible instructs us to be like the Bereans, searching the Scriptures to see if what we hear is true. Your presentations contains much that is biblically sound. Yet some of your arguments are not biblically sound, and I have an obligation to protect the readers from unsound teaching that could confuse them. I am not here to argue with you. But the Bible is explicitly clear that those who are responsible for the nurture and welfare of congregations are to protect them from doctrinal confusion. I have disagreed with you not because I enjoy arguing but because there is a problem with some of your exegesis and with your assumption of authority in a group where you are unknown. My question about KJV-only is not a deflection. I would also like to ask how much time you have spent in a church with an experienced and sound Bible teacher presenting Scripture to you. When we have spent years in Adventism, we must learn to study Scripture from people who do not have our "Adventist presuppositions". It is not possible to explain the depth and the clarity that have come from being taught by Bible teachers who have a biblical worldview instead of a foundation of cultic understanding. We don't even know how deeply our warped views go. I will tell you what I tell many others, especially those who have been Adventist pastors and teachers: you need to sit back for a a couple or five years and submit to the teaching of a healthy church with a pastor who can carefully explicate the word of God. After Saul's Damascus road experience, he went to the desert for three years and was not heard from until after God taught him, deprogramming him from his Pharisaical mindset. We welcome you as one of the gang. That means that we're on an equal playing field. You are not more of an authority than anyone else, and you have as much to learn as we all do. I say this as one who is continuing to discover the depth of God's wordbut who, along with Richard, is also entrusted with nurturing and protecting this "flock" of people that God brings together here. Colleen | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 724 Registered: 10-2006 |
Michael, we are good friends to have and we want you to be part of us! I hope you'll stay! One of the things you'll understand soon is that virtually EVERY TIME someone realizes the they have been believing false doctrine and turns to Jesus and has their veil removed and sees things for the first time it is beyond exciting. A life has been saved from sin by Jesus - and people want to share everything they've learned. My heart kind of jumps for joy everytime a new exadventist comes here. I get so excited because I know it was the Holy Spirit's work. Please share yourself and more of your story. Comment on other people's questions. Share the things you're learning. We are a community - definitely not perfect, but a group of followers of Jesus who love each other and want to share our lives in Christ. We share a common bond as former Adventists - and that helps us understand each other. I for one hope you'll stay and give us a chance to get to know you. You're not an outsider - just new. Please give us a chance. You don't need to post article and maybe links to your web site might be a better place for them. Several people here have web sites:Jeremy, Jennifer; Gilbert; Honestwitness; Cheri... Lots of us visit them regularly. Sometimes we post articles here, but mostly we ask and answer questions, share prayer needs, support each other when leaving gets hard, and grow in Christ together. It is OK to disagree with the Tinkers and anyone else on this forum - as long as its done respectfully. Actually, hot theological topics sprout up here quite often - and people disagree - and usually make up at the end.  You've experienced a life change by Holy Spirit and are quite zealous for Jesus and the gospel. I don't think even the Holy Spirit would have it any other way. It IS exciting. It IS a miracle - and we want to share that with you as friends. What you might not understand is that we experienced that utter joy and zealousness for Jesus, too when we found the true gospel and came out of Adventism. You have been studying - it's clear. It's obvious you've been reading your Bible a lot. I, for one hope you'll stay. Develop the website, too for your articles and charts (you have good stuff), but stay and get to know us, too. We share a common bond as Christians - and former Adventists. Shoot, you haven't even been around long enough for a food thread! Joyfulheart | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 47 Registered: 7-2010 |
------------------------ quoting Colleen There is not a consistent argument within Scripture itself to say that your conclusion is correct. ________________________ Disagreements are uncomfortable for all of us. As Joyfulheart said we ought to handle these situations as respectfully as possible. So with all respect I can muster I will address the "consitent argument within scripture" comment. Which part is inconsistent? Please be specific, on which point have I contradicted either myself or upon which passage of the Bible is this article not in harmony with? 1) That Christ promised to die for the sins of all mankind from the foundation of the world? Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as OF A LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH AND WITHOUT SPOT: WHO VERILY WAS FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1Pe 1:18-20 2) The Book of life was written before the world was created. "WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" Revelation 17:8 3) That although Peter was not yet converted, his name was in the book of life since it was put there from the foundation of the world? But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and WHEN THOU ART CONVERTED, strengthen thy brethren. Luke 22:32 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. Luke 10:20 4) The saints are foreordained from the foundation of the world? According as HE HATH CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Ephesians 1:4-5 WHO HATH SAVED US, AND CALLED US WITH AN HOLY CALLING, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN, 2Ti 1:9 IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE, WHICH GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, PROMISED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN; Titus 1:2 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, WHICH GOD ORDAINED BEFORE THE WORLD unto our glory: 1Co 2:7 5) That Jesus died for the sins of all the world, this means everyone! The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, WHICH TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD. John 1:29 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only (THE SAVED ELECT), BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD (THE LOST SINNERS IN THE WORLD). 1John 2:2 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD. Joh 4:42 To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2Co 5:19 To every soul He shed His precious blood he did foreknow by name. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Ro 8:29 . 6) That God knew all their names in advance and wrote them in the Book of Life? Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:5. It all seems pretty consistent to me. . . one harmonious thread strait trough without a single kink! The problem that I see, is that it is not consistent with your view of Calvinism. That is the real issue we are talking about here. It is this next point, point 7 that is the real issue. Although it matches all the Bible texts I have quoted it does not work inside Calvinism. Let's look at point 7. 7) Names in the Book of Life CAN and DO get blotted out of the Book of Life. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Re 22:19 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Ex 32:33 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Ps 69:28 Let me summarize. God knew in advance that sin would become a problem. He knew in advance every person on this world would be effected by sin. He wanted everyone of them to be saved from this sin problem. To prove this he wrote their names in a book before the world was made. He foreordained or predestined each to eternal life, because God was not willing that any be lost. This is the part you don't like, One by one men have forced God to remove their names, their names were put in other books recording all the reasons why their names were taking out of the book of life, including all their words, deeds, and motives. Those books justify why God had to remove their names from the Book of Life. God did not exercise a veto over their wills forcing them to be damned as Calvinist teach. They used their own free will and chose their own fate. Well guys, I am on my lunch break and need to stop for now so I can get . . . you guessed it! Lunch! I will be busy most the rest of the day. Big work assignment! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1302 Registered: 7-2007 |
Michael; Even the apostle Paul, when he wrote Galatians, could have sent them what he wrote to the Ephesians, Colossians, Corinthians, Romans, Philippians and Thessalonians as well. He didn't though. He just wrote them Galatians. What I mean is, please don't dump the whole load of food on the table all at once; okay? Another thing that I'd like to point out. There are lots of qualified pastors who've studied the Bible from one end to the other. They have a lot of "food" to give their congregations and the people benefit from their sermons - a lot! I just want to point out that when a person leaves a cult - any cult - and becomes a Christian; the Holy Spirit becomes that person's Teacher as the person listens to sermons and studies the Bible. | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2010 |
------------------------------------------------- Quote - Asurprise Michael; Even the apostle Paul, when he wrote Galatians, could have sent them what he wrote to the Ephesians, Colossians, Corinthians, Romans, Philippians and Thessalonians as well. He didn't though. He just wrote them Galatians. What I mean is, please don't dump the whole load of food on the table all at once; okay? Another thing that I'd like to point out. There are lots of qualified pastors who've studied the Bible from one end to the other. They have a lot of "food" to give their congregations and the people benefit from their sermons - a lot! I just want to point out that when a person leaves a cult - any cult - and becomes a Christian; the Holy Spirit becomes that person's Teacher as the person listens to sermons and studies the Bible. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- Quoting Michael I am going to respect the forum. I will indeed slow down. It will be a while before I post any new articles. I will continue to reply to anything I have already posted. I have secured the following domains THESUNDAYLAW.ORG THESUNDAYLAW.COM THESUNDAYLAW.NET THESUNDAYLAW.INFO I will be devoting my time to making my articles and charts available on that website and will spend less time on this forum, at least for now. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am sticking to that! Besides it's a forum guys! Written material, - which means - read at your own pace! I don't feel like I have to read all the archives in the next 24 hours, so please don't feel like you have to read my ten posts or so in a hurry. Don't worry, there not going any where! Get to them when you can. Read at your own pace! Time for me to get back to work! (Message edited by michaelsavedbygrace on July 22, 2010) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3269 Registered: 10-2004  |
Michael, You are insulting mine and everybody else's intelligence/Biblical knowledge/etc., when you claim that we only said something because you wrote something that "disagreed with Colleen Tinker." Also, to compare Colleen to a demon-possessed cult leader (Ellen White) is just plain wrong. And to compare the rest of us to cultists/followers of Ellen is also not right. I can give you Biblical reasons why what you wrote is wrong, if you are willing to hear it. And my conclusions I came to on this topic had nothing to do with Colleen Tinker! You are also wrong to think that this is an Arminian vs. Calvinist issue. Evangelical Arminians would also disagree with what you've written, because it is a false gospel to say that everyone is born saved--which is in essence what you are teaching, saying that everyone is born with their names already written in the Book of Life and with eternal life, and that they have to do something in order to "lose their salvation." This is a form of the dangerous doctrine of Universalism. And in fact, this IS taught by many Adventists including many popular SDA pastors in Southern California. So even here, you can't say that SDAs don't teach this. Arminians would also disagree with your statement that: "One by one men have forced God to remove their names, their names were put in other books recording all the reasons why their names were taking out of the book of life, including all their words, deeds, and motives." If people are lost by their deeds, then that is salvation by works, and not the true Gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ's sacrifice alone. Also, you wrote:
But you said that you wrote the article ten years ago--so that was while you were still under the demonic hold and influence of Ellen G. White (see 1 Timothy 4:1-5, 1 John 4:1-6, etc.). One point in the article that the SDA Church/Ellen White teach is what Hec already tried to correct you on. You wrote:
That you are misusing this text and interpreting it in the same way as SDA/EGW can be made even more clear by your next post, where you said:
But Hec already tried to correct you on this when he quoted from 1 John 5:4. John (who also recorded Jesus' words in Revelation 3) says in 1 John 5 (under the verbal inspiration of Jesus):
So "overcoming" has nothing to do with "overcoming sin" "by grace through faith in Jesus" (which is exactly what Ellen White and Adventism teaches and is a false gospel), but rather it is placing our faith in Jesus Christ alone for our salvation and, if we are true believers, it is something that has already been done in the past, as John puts it in the past tense ("has overcome") for the true believer! It's not something that we have to worry about after we have placed our faith in Jesus and been born again ("whatever is born of God overcomes the world"--and "overcomes" is in the indicative mood in the original Greek, meaning it is a definite fact and it has no possibility of not happening, and again, it is something that has already happened in the past tense according to the next part of the verse [aorist tense in the Greek])! Again, I am willing to share with you my understanding about the Book of Life, if you are willing to hear it. But again, this is not an Arminian vs. Calvinist issue. In fact, one of the people who helped me understand the Biblical teaching on this subject was Charles Stanley, who is himself an Arminian! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 22, 2010) | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 49 Registered: 7-2010 |
_______________________________ Quoting Jeremy You are also wrong to think that this is an Arminian vs. Calvinist issue. Evangelical Arminians would also disagree with what you've written, because it is a false gospel to say that everyone is born saved--which is in essence what you are teaching, saying that everyone is born with their names already written in the Book of Life and with eternal life, and that they have to do something in order to "lose their salvation." This is a form of the dangerous doctrine of Universalism. And in fact, this IS taught by many Adventists including many popular SDA pastors in Southern California. So even here, you can't say that SDAs don't teach this. _______________________________ You and I may not have gotten off on the right foot largely because this topic was addressed, but even if it is one sided I want to say sincerely, that I like you Jeremy. I do. I hope you will post replies to more of my articles. You are a sharp thinking young man. Universalism teaches EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED. I on the other hand believe names get blotted out of the book of life. In fact I believe that most of the names in the book of life get blotted out. Broad is the way that leads to destruction and many there be that go in. So clearly I do NOT believe everyone will be saved. That is a far cry from universalism. Nice shot though, a big bang, but a miss. I liked the part of your argument when you used Universalism to take a stab at "everyone's names being written in the Book of Life." I liked it . because that was real sharp bud! I really do hope you post more on my articles. I look forward to it. Here is my reply. If you will listen to it. . . . The book of life is a sealed book. It does not save anyone only the blood of Christ does that. What it does is write down the names of everyone God wants to save. The power in the Book of Life is activated when the book is UNSEALED. The fact the names are in the book does not do anyone any good until after it is UNSEALED. Revelation 5:1-5 1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne A BOOK WRITTEN WITHIN AND ON THE BACKSIDE, SEALED WITH SEVEN SEALS. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And NO MAN IN HEAVEN, NOR IN EARTH, NEITHER UNDER THE EARTH, WAS ABLE TO OPEN THE BOOK, neither to look thereon. 4 And I WEPT MUCH, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, NEITHER TO LOOK THEREON. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, THE LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDA, THE ROOT OF DAVID, HATH PREVAILED TO OPEN THE BOOK, AND TO LOOSE THE SEVEN SEALS THEREOF. John was very upset when he saw that no one could open this book, in fact they could not even look in it. He cried bitterly over this. What changed all of this? What made it possible to open the book? CHRIST DID! Only Christ could activate this book and make it legal. He promised to give himself at the foundation of the world. As an earnest of this He wrote the Book of Life. That was the first covenant ever made. Christ promised to die for mankind BEFORE THE WORLD WAS MADE. That covenant pre-dates the Adamic Covenant. Since this covenant was based on a promise this book needed to be SEALED until after the promise was fulfilled. The Book of Life saves no one Jeremy! The Blood of Christ does that. The Book of Life is the written covenant given before the world began - promising God's love and a plan of salvation for everyone. The blood of the Lamb is what ratifies that covenant and makes it valid or legal. It is Christ that prevailed to open the book of life. He alone gives us eternal life. Jeremy don't you believe that we were foreordained in Christ to receive eternal life? If so why is it such a hard thing for you to accept that he knew you by name and wrote that name in the Book of Life - promising YOU Jeremy a plan to save you personally before you were born? Why would that offend you? According as HE HATH CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Ephesians 1:4-5 WHO HATH SAVED US, AND CALLED US WITH AN HOLY CALLING, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN, 2Ti 1:9 IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE, WHICH GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, PROMISED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN; Titus 1:2 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, WHICH GOD ORDAINED BEFORE THE WORLD unto our glory: 1Co 2:7 | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 231 Registered: 2-2008 |
Hey Michael, Welcome to the forum. I want to say that their is a calling to be as the Bareans, and really search the scriptures. I haven't had time to do this with your posts because they have come so frequently, and with so much information, that my Barean self defense mode kicked in and I could only give it a glance, because their is so much info. I was going to suggest you keep some of your powder dry, so you have something to contribute in the future, and that what you say has a chance for people to participate in, because no matter how sincere, or important a point to be made is, within a week or so it becomes yesterdays news. Adventism has a very bad study structure, and I cannot say that you are in that camp of information sharing. Its just that they are famous for information overload that effectively blocks out the Spirit. I'm not saying that is your intention, I just want everyone to be effective in their ministry of the Gospel. As my friend once told me, "I learn something new about God everyday." Chris | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2010 |
Ever heard of a dog pyle? I think this post was a cry "Dog pyle on Michael!" LOL | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2010 |
Look folks, obviously my staying on this forum is an up hill battle since I am the lone ranger on this topic. I do feel a little "outside the camp" at this point. I wish this topic was not brought up until a later time after we all got to know each other. I thought people wanted to know my position on the topic, so I shared it. I did not want to turn everyone on the forum against me by doing so. I wanted to come share my articles and bounce them off people for their responses. I feel that goal is tarnished because there seems to be a prejudice against me since making this post. I am going to wish all of you peace and leave you to that peace. I did not mean to rock your boat. After I leave the waters will settle back down. You will see. Thanks for letting me share. I am all alone on this journey in many ways, it was nice to have company for a few days to talk over some things. God Bless! Michael | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 120 Registered: 8-2006 |
on a more positive note..Michael I think you would do well on CARM I find that not everyone on this forum agrees with everyone 100%. I do think your post are in-depth and well written, you truly have a God given knack, this doesn't mean that we all have to agree with your post, though. I know I myself have written post in the past people may not agree with and I'm ok with that. I know Adventism had a negative impact on me I thought that if 'one is wrong on one issue, then they cannot be trusted on any issue', this a 'wrong mindset'. You miss out on so much God has to offer with that 'mindset', I believe people may not agree 100% on all the nitty grityy but, if you can agree on the Bigger issues, 'Christ', 'Grace' 'New Covenant' , 'It is Finished' 'Trinity' etc. this my friend makes all the difference. We are all kinda in the 'same boat' in regards to Adventism, some are just starting their journey out, while others have been out for years. I don't want you to think anyone is 'Dog pylin' you, everyone has a right to agree or disagree. The point is this forum is set up for support and recovery for those of us who have been out of Adventism or in the process of transitioning out, not to tare down but to build up each other and to be a support for each other. I feel responsible because I did ask your opinion in regards to 'predestination theory', so I'm sorry to have put you in that position, though I still don't know that I agree or disagree with anyone persons belief on the matter. I come here for support and encouragement, I encourage you to stay, you will learn and grow | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 53 Registered: 7-2010 |
I posted nearly every verse I could find in the Bible promising forgiveness, and said that the Blood of Christ was my only plea, and this offended someone. I believe that God knew the sin problem would exist before the world was made and that He loved us anyway and made this world despite it all. For God SO love the world... And that Christ promised to give Himself to save all the world before He said, "Let there be light!" If this upsets people on this forum, If stating that the Blood of Christ is my only hope of salvation and sharing Bible promises about forgiveness, and believing Christ knew the end from the beginning, which means He also knew each of us by name before we were born and promised to die for us - if this offends you folks, then perhaps I am on the wrong forum. I do not want to leave anyone "hanging" I promised more proof that Peter was not yet converted. Email me and I will write that response out for you. Colleen, you guys can share Calvinism and "protect" the forum members now. I won't be rebutting any of your arguments, so you should have an easy time of it now. This is not why I joined this forum. It's not! I wanted to share what I have been learning about the proof texts Adventist use to teach the Ten Commandments and Sabbath. I wanted to share my article on the Sunday Law. And other things pertaining to the changes I have been going through the last few months. I regret that we never got to that. Good luck guys! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1731 Registered: 6-2006  |
Michael, no one is dog piling you. You came in, everyone welcomed you with open arms an kind words. Then you proceded to bombard us with your articles. It's fine to post articles, but as I asked you in another thread it's not clear if you're preaching to us as a forum group or reaching out to possible lurkers. We just want to get to know each other a little better, that's all. This really is like a family. We love including new members and making new friends. Of course we don't always agree with each other, but as a whole this is usually a great place to come and make friends who can relate to your situation. I don't know - maybe you're not here to make friends? I certainly hope you are. Leigh Anne | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 121 Registered: 8-2006 |
I honestly don't believe Colleen is trying 'protect by means of sharing Calvanism' many people on this forum are members of different churches, not all promote Calvinism. I think this is more about keeping the integrity of this forum, it's purpose is to provide support and encouragement. That is compromised when we start to argue about the nitty gritty. I think the concern is our impression was you are newly out of Adventism and you need time to heal and reflect in regards to 'Adventist theology and mindset', not that we don't want to hear your testimony, or we don't want you to share your thoughts with us. We do indeed, but it does take time transitioning out, we would like to know more about you as a person, rather than argue with one another. | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 220 Registered: 6-2008 |
Michael, Sometimes "dog piling" relieves tension, but it's not much fun for the guy on the bottom! In any case, Michael, no matter what the differences expressed here, and sometimes it does get heated, there is no malice intended, so I hope you can look at it that way and continue here as a learner, teacher, questioner, and responder. Each of us wears those hats at various times! Each of us needs to grow in one way or another: Some of us need more humility, some more confidence; some more gentleness and tact, some more boldness and courage. No one here, that I know of, thinks they have it all down pat. Don't give up on us! We haven't given up on you, not by a long shot! Yen | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 122 Registered: 8-2006 |
Now c'mon Michael, you must have a funny story or two to share with us? Laughter is the best medicine! and yes, people here do have a great sense of humor! it's not all serious all the time. I find getting to know a person better, makes it easier for me to relate to them! and not that I'm promoting 'bashing Adventist' on this forum, but, it's interesting to see where you came from and where you are at right now. I could share a thousand 'crazy' experiences! I've still yet not shared the 'diaper' story! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3270 Registered: 10-2004 |
Michael, You asked me:
Michael, I believe all of that, I accept all of that, and none of it offends me. But what you are saying contradicts the things you wrote and the verses you quoted. Let's take these one at a time. Yes, I believe that I was "foreordained in Christ to receive eternal life." But you either don't believe this, or you believe that everyone receives eternal life, or you believe that God's foreordaining does not have to come to pass (if God foreordains everyone and some do not receive eternal life). I believe that God's decrees come to pass. "If so why is it such a hard thing for you to accept that he knew you by name and wrote that name in the Book of Life - promising YOU Jeremy a plan to save you personally before you were born?" I do accept that. But I believe that God's plans actually come to pass, and are not thwarted by humans. According as HE HATH CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Ephesians 1:4-5 I totally accept that passage. But notice that it says that He predestinated us to be adopted. That means that not everyone was chosen before the foundation of the world, that not everyone was predestinated, because not everyone is adopted in Christ as God's children and saved! What is the point of God's predestinating anything, if His predestination is useless, pointless, futile, and does not actually come to pass?? That is a pretty weak god, and not the Sovereign God of the Bible. Again I cannot stress enough the importance of the fact that all of these theories of yours were formed while you were "under the influence" of the cultic, demonic hold of Ellen G. White and the SDA cult. You need to reexamine these things out in the light, outside of the darkness of Adventism. WHO HATH SAVED US, AND CALLED US WITH AN HOLY CALLING, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN, 2Ti 1:9 Notice it says that He has actually saved us according to His purpose from before the world began! Again, this is not talking about everyone, only about the saved. IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE, WHICH GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, PROMISED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN; Titus 1:2 God who cannot lie!!! Do you believe this or not??! He promised us eternal life before the world began! Unless you are a standard Universalist (which you deny), He did not promise this to everyone, or else you are calling God who cannot lie, a liar! But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, WHICH GOD ORDAINED BEFORE THE WORLD unto our glory: 1Co 2:7 God ordained it to happen and it did. He does not ordain things to happen that don't ever happen!! Even if God were a god who is not Sovereign, that would just be stupid of him, if he knows the future and what is going to happen (unless you are denying that, too). But then that would be really stupid of a non-Sovereign, non-omniscient god to "ordain" anything!! So, yes, I believe all of those things and all of those texts, but you reject each one of them! I'm not upset with you personally, Michael. I'm just flabbergasted at how you can think that I'm the one who doesn't believe those texts, when they say nothing about the unsaved being predestined/foreordained/ordained/etc., and say exactly the opposite. Again, most Arminians would agree with what I've written. This still is not even an Arminian vs. Calvinist issue. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 22, 2010) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1172 Registered: 3-2009 |
I am not an apologist. I am not an expert. I am not an erudite. I am only me. With this said, I want you to know that I do not claim to know any more than anyone else. But I can read, and I do get questions. Michael, I still get confused sometimes with the way I explain things. I still get caught in the SDA way of thinking. And that may be part of what is happening to you. It seems to me like you still think like a SDA in many ways. I know it is very hard to get rid of that way of thinking. One of the ways SDAs "proof" their points is by citing tons of Bible verses. This way people think, "wow this is Biblical". It seems to me that that is what happened in the post above directed to Jeremy. You post several Bible verses to "proof" your point on the Book of Live. My problem with those verses is that none of them even mentions the book of life. Just because one of them mentions a book, it doesn't necessarily mean the Book of Life. I have that problem still. Sometimes I am talking to someone about a topic and I revert to SDA way of thinking. I'm getting better, but I have to watch for that. Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3271 Registered: 10-2004 |
Michael, Regarding what I believe about the Book of Life, here is a very concise answer which matches my belief: http://www.gotquestions.org/book-of-life.html If you want to discuss this issue or any of the verses further, I would be happy to do so. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3272 Registered: 10-2004 |
Michael, One verse that the article I linked to does not address is the following verse you quoted: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Re 22:19 This is a simple manuscript/copyist error in the King James Version. The more accurate manuscripts used in modern translations do not even mention the Book of Life: "and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19 NASB.) You say that you use multiple translations and check the original Greek, so why did you use the faulty KJV to try to prove your point? Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 22, 2010) |
