| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3273 Registered: 10-2004  |
Michael, You wrote:
This is so easy to refute, Michael, as the article I linked to above does. But let me just say a few things about your points/verses here. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Re 3:5 AV) First you take a verse which promises the believer (aka overcomer--see 1 John 5:4-5) that we will not have our names blotted out of the Book of Life and turn it completely around 180 degrees to try to make it say the exact opposite, that believers can have their names blotted out of the Book of Life!! That is what cults do. And that is exactly what Ellen White and Adventism do with this verse. But just read it for what it says. It's a promise that our names won't be blotted out of the Book of Life! And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Re 22:19 Manuscript error. Does not say "book of life." See my post above. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Ex 32:33 Does not say "book of life." Context is physical, earthly life. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Ps 69:28 Does not say "book of life." Context is physical, earthly life. So, let's recap. Out of your 4 verses that "prove" that names are blotted out of the Book of Life, 3 of them don't even mention the Book of Life and 1 of them is a promise that our names will not be blotted out of the Book of Life.  So I hope you will stop wondering why we don't accept your theory. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 22, 2010) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1303 Registered: 7-2007 |
Michael; why are you so angry? Some of the people on the forum agree with you and some disagree. You said (in post #51) that you wanted to share your articles and bounce them off people for their responses. Well, you got responses. Are you angry about that? We would like you to come and share and also let us share. I mean no offense, but you are acting like an Adventist pastor who wants to have the final word on everything. (I say "Adventist pastor" because in cults such as Adventism, etc. the pastor IS THE final word because people arn't learning from the Holy Spirit at a cult church. They are learning from the leaders.) And speaking of the Holy Spirit, we formers have learned to listen to Him. He's the One Who brought us out and the Bible says He's the One Who teaches us believers. We read the Bible - of course! But the Holy Spirit teaches us - otherwise we would get confused. That's how cults start in the first place. Through pride - Ellen White and the others didn't want to give up their idea that SOMETHING happened in 1844! And through other motives such as Joseph Smith exhibited, etc. You said; quote: "Only those today who by grace through faith in Jesus are overcoming sin will not have their names blotted out of the Book of Life." Didn't Ellen White say that? I don't know whether she did or not, but it certainly sounds familier. Do good works wipe out your sins? How does one know if they are "overcoming sin"? Jeremiah 17:9 says that "The heart is deceitful above all things." So how can we KNOW we are overcoming sin? Our hearts can easily decieve us! Besides that we would be looking AT OURSELVES instead of Christ! The Bible says that us having the Holy Spirit shows us that we are saved. Ephesians 1:13,14 says: "...sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance..." 2nd Corinthians 5:5 "...Who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." Romans 8:9 "...Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." I don't remember Colleen coming across as a Calvinist. There are people from both "camps" here. There was someone awhile back who was a very outspoken Calvinist. He got angry one day and quit the forum. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3274 Registered: 10-2004 |
By the way, one more thing, Michael, you are using (whether consciously or not) Ellen White's interpretation of the Exodus 32 passage. Even if you didn't read much of Ellen White, you are still throughly infected by her teachings when you are in Adventism, as all of the SDA literature, sermons, Sabbath School quarterlies, etc., reflect her teachings and quote from her. Even if you don't think you were accepting EGW instead of the Bible, you were. And it takes quite awhile to remove all of these Ellenisms and Ellen's misinterpretations of the Bible from our thinking. In fact, even after decades, sometimes things pop up that people thought were from the Bible that were really EGW. That is how thoroughly brainwashed we all were. Jeremy EDIT: I know I said that was the last thing, but I wanted to respond to this quote of yours, Michael:
How many times must I point out that this is not a Calvinist vs. Arminian issue? Again, these things you are teaching would be rejected even by most Arminians. (Message edited by jeremy on July 22, 2010) | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 54 Registered: 7-2010 |
Ten days ago, I did not say to myself, "lets join the formeradventist.com forum so I can debate Calvinism and predestination!" I wanted to come here and discuss ADVENTISM! That apparently is not possible now. Jeremy wants to call God stupid if he ordains someone who later ends up lost. Well I guess by his definition Jesus is stupid for ordaining Judas! Mark 3:14 14 And HE ORDAINED TWELVE, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, John 15:16 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU, AND ORDAINED you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. Jeremy says that God only offers forgiveness to the saved or the elect. I am sorry I believe otherwise I don't want anyone getting caught up my use of the KJV here. 1John 2:2 (ASV) and he is the propitiation for our sins; AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD. (BBE) He is the offering for our sins; AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT FOR ALL THE WORLD. (Bishops) And he is ye attonement for our sinnes: NOT FOR OUR SINNES ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINNES OF ALL THE WORLDE. (CEV) Christ is the sacrifice THAT TAKES AWAY OUR SINS AND THE SINS OF ALL THE WORLD'S PEOPLE. (CJB) Also, he is the kapparah for our sins AND NOT ONLY FOR OURS, BUT ALSO FOR THOSE OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (Darby) and *he* is the propitiation for our sins; BUT NOT FOR OURS ALONE, BUT ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD. (DRB) And he is the propitiation for our sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THOSE OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (EMTV) And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and NOT ONLY CONCERNING OURS, BUT ALSO CONCERNING THOSE OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (ESV) He is the propitiation for our sins, AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (Geneva) And he is the reconciliation for our sinnes: AND NOT FOR OURS ONELY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINNES OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (GNB) And Christ himself is the means by which our sins are forgiven, AND NOT OUR SINS ONLY, BUT ALSO THE SINS OF EVERYONE. (GW) He is the payment for our sins, AND NOT ONLY FOR OUR SINS, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (ISV) It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD'S. (KJV) And he is the propitiation for our sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (KJVA) And he is the propitiation for our sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (LITV) And He Himself is the propitiation relating to our sins, AND NOT RELATING TO OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO RELATING TO ALL THE WORLD. (MKJV) And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, AND NOT CONCERNING OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO CONCERNING THE SINS OF ALL THE WORLD. (MSG) When he served as a sacrifice for our sins, HE SOLVED THE SIN PROBLEM FOR GOOD--NOT ONLY OURS, BUT THE WHOLE WORLD'S. (Murdock) For he is himself the propitiation for our sins; AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR ALL THE WORLD. (NIrV) He gave his life to pay for our sins. BUT HE NOT ONLY PAID FOR OUR SINS. HE ALSO PAID FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (NIV) He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, AND NOT ONLY FOR OURS BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (NKJV) And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY BUT ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD. (RV) and he is the propitiation for our sins; and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD. (TNIV) He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, AND NOT ONLY FOR OURS BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (Webster) And he is the propitiation for our sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (WNT) and He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (YLT) and he--he is a propitiation for our sins, AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD, ------------------------------------------------------------------ "all of these theories of yours were formed while you were "under the influence" of the cultic, demonic hold of Ellen G. White and the SDA cult." ------------------------------------------------------------- Ellen White taught that names are put in the book of Life at conversion. There is NOTHING about my teaching that harmonizes with that. This is nothing more than name calling and mudslinging to divert people from what I wrote. Under the "cultic demonic hold of Ellen G. White and the SDA cult", ( I like how you got the word cult in there twice - it really gets the scare into the reader that way ) during that time I also came to firmly believe in the trinity for example. I have debated for 6 MONTHS defending that view against better opponents that you Jeremy. You are sharp, but you have hateful tone in your posts. That NEVER wins the opposition. It may impress those who agree with you (shows confidence ) but you will never win anyone from the opposition with that approach. As far as my need to have the last word, I regret that I left that impression. I assure you I will give Jeremy or Coleen ample opportunity to have that right! I am stepping down from this debate. If I wanted to debate Calvinism I would have joined an apologist forum that defends that view. I simply wanted to say, that yes I wanted to share my articles when I joined this forum. HOWEVER THIS ARTICLE WAS NOT ONE OF THEM! I only shared this article because I was asked to share my view on this topic. I wanted to talk about Adventism guys! But that seems impossible. No one is posting comments on my other topics anymore, just this one. I would have loved to tell stories. I am a real joker guys! I am serious when I talk about the Bible but I am loads of laugh when I am not talking about sacred things. I would have been one of your allies when people came asking tough questions, but this forum (not all; just the ones that seem to speak out the most) seem to want to alienate me. Well you are getting your wish. I hope you are proud of yourselves. You effectively alienated someone who is a "Former Adventist." Great job! By the way Jeremy, that is your cue! Get'm tiger! | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 731 Registered: 10-2006 |
Michael, how about we start over. Would you be interested in telling us more about your journey out of Adventism? Did your family come out with you? Do you have any funny food stories? | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2010 |
IF everyone will agree to STOP POSTING on this post. I will certainly be glad to start over. If someone wants to continue discussing this, and has any brotherly love towards me and wants me to stay then START A NEW POST! I will not reply to it DEAL? Its up to you guys.I will concede to drop this topic and start over if everyone else will. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1175 Registered: 3-2009 |
Now, this post 55 confuses me. Somebody start a new post, but You will not reply to it? Hec | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3275 Registered: 10-2004 |
Michael, I said that we were all brainwashed, we were all part of a cult, we were all under the demonic hold of Ellen White. None of us are any "better" than you, and none of us have even hinted at that. I was not trying to "scare" people by using words like "cult." If I was trying to "scare" anyone, I was trying to "scare" you into being very suspicious of anything you wrote while SDA. Again, speaking for myself, I would never trust anything I wrote while SDA to be true teaching. There are so many deeply indoctrinated and intricately interwoven assumptions/foundations/beliefs that we were taught in Adventism, which take a long time just to untangle and discover them all. I am not trying to be hateful, and I was hoping we could have a friendly dialogue. I do use what some might find to be strong language at times, in order to get my point across clearly, but please understand that that doesn't mean I have a hateful tone. I have no desire to debate Calvinism, either, but as I keep trying to point out, these are SDA ideas that you are putting forth on this thread. So we are talking about Adventism. And again, there are millions of Arminians out there who would disagree with you that God "ordains someone who later ends up lost." I never said that "God only offers forgiveness to the saved or the elect" as you claimed I said. As far as Judas, he was never saved, never part of the elect. Mark 3:14 does not say anything about Judas being part of the elect: "And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach," (NASB.) Nothing about election/predestination/choosing from the foundation of the world. It says exactly what He appointed/ordained the twelve for, and it does not say that He appointed/ordained them for salvation! Your other verse, John 15:16 is a wonderful verse that proves that those whom God chooses and ordains will bear fruit and that their fruit will remain. But this verse does not apply to Judas. Jesus is not talking to Judas. Judas left the building in chapter 13, verse 30. Jesus was only speaking to the 11 in 15:16. And in 17:12, Jesus prays: "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." (NASB.) Judas was the son of perdition, he was not a child of God. Do you really think that Jesus was "guarding" Judas just like the other 11, and yet he was lost anyway? (That would make Jesus into a weak Guard.) Of course not, those He guarded did not perish, and those He guards today will never perish (John 10:27-29). Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 22, 2010) | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 56 Registered: 7-2010 |
Alright, I was waiting the last 15 minutes for this post from Jeremy, now that you got the last word can we put this topic to bed and move on? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3276 Registered: 10-2004 |
Another passage that proves that Judas never believed and was never saved: "'But there are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him." (John 6:64 NASB.) And then a few verses later: "So Jesus said to the twelve, 'You do not want to go away also, do you?' 68Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69'We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.' 70Jesus answered them, 'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?' 71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him." (John 6:67-71 NASB.) Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3277 Registered: 10-2004 |
Michael, I don't have to have the last word. But if you don't want to discuss any of this anymore, then I'm certainly not going to keep talking to myself about it.  Jeremy | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 57 Registered: 7-2010 |
Thank you Jeremy, Here is my reason. Neither side ever concedes. This conversation would never end. We would debate back and forth endlessly. You would be a worthy opponent brother. I will concede that. Let's end with a courteous solute to one another and leave things at that. Some thrive on debate, although I am well adept and can hold my own, I have a peaceful nature about me and prefer not to unless my conscience demands otherwise. I did not want to introduce myself on the opposite of an issue that sparks passion and controversy. It is hard to make new friends in that environment. I hope that will not be too late for either of us or for Colleen. I think it is not too late. Most have shown me a peace offering here. I accept, and offer one in return. Hats off to my new friends who I must count as worthy "scholars." Good Night! (Message edited by michaelsavedbygrace on July 22, 2010) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3278 Registered: 10-2004 |
Michael, Of course it's not too late to be friends! There is no member on this forum that I know of that "hates" anybody. And Colleen is certainly not one. But as someone mentioned earlier, this is probably a good thing for you to experience before you meet River, as he sometimes uses real straight talk when he gets passionate about something! Where are you, River? We need you back! LOL. Jeremy | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 840 Registered: 12-2007 |
Michael, I have enjoyed many of your informative posts, You are a valuable member here. :-)And this is overall a very loving and friendly bunch :-) Personally, I feel the problem when you first came here was that we have not really gotten to know you as a person yet and we were feeling kinda bombarded with a LOT of information on your views so suddenly. I know it is hard when you have so much information to share to hold back ... but there was just so much coming at us so fast that it is hard to absorb.... I have printed out several of your articles for later reading... as if I sat and read it all and tried to study it out as soon as it is posted I would not have time to read anything that anyone else is saying. I believe you to be a very sincere person with a lot of valuable insights to share. I would just ask to please tell us more about yourself, let us get to know you as a person. As for River... :-) River is one of our "never beens" (SDA) and he is a real sweet and caring person.. he cares deeply for those of us coming out of Adventism. He can come across pretty strong at times,, when I first came on here I got scolded a few times by River, and it kinda hurt my feelings,,, but once I got to know him better, I realized that sometimes he feels he's gotta shake us up a bit to get a point across. It is done in love. Although I have to admit over the past few months I have percieved a mellowing on Rivers part, a gentleness that he didnt let us see as often as lately :-) But I do miss his posts as many on here do cause I guess he's been busy with other stuff and hasnt been showing up as often for a while now....We do miss you River.... :-) Francie / Skeeter | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1306 Registered: 7-2007 |
Michael; I don't see how Jeremy is coming across as "hateful." He's simply disagreeing with you. Why are you getting SO angry about that? Is THAT a fruit of the Spirit?? Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, etc...?? You seem to be displaying a different spirit entirely.... You say that WE have to be overcoming sin by grace through faith in Jesus. That puts the whole burden on ourselves. That causes us to continuely look to ourselves to make sure we are overcoming sin through faith in Jesus. Where is the Spirit in that? I had no idea when I was an Adventist that a person can actually sense the Presence of the Holy Spirit!! (Of course we don't ALWAYS sense the Holy Spirit; but He's always working on us.) Instead I was concentrating on overcoming sin through faith in Jesus - examining cans of food to make sure there was no lard inside - trying to keep from secular thoughts on the Sabbath; etc. etc. Paul said the believer "has been saved," but I couldn't put my weight down on that. I had to make sure I was "overcoming sin" in Jesus' strength! (Message edited by Asurprise on July 23, 2010) | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1307 Registered: 7-2007 |
Yes River; where are you?? Be gentle to this new man on here though. He has some things he's not clear on, but we ALL have things we're not clear on! River, though having never been SDA, was dramatically rescued by God; as were we all!!! | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 59 Registered: 7-2010 |
________________________ quoting asurprise You say that WE have to be overcoming sin by grace through faith in Jesus. That puts the whole burden on ourselves. That causes us to continuely look to ourselves to make sure we are overcoming sin through faith in Jesus. Where is the Spirit in that? I had no idea when I was an Adventist that a person can actually sense the Presence of the Holy Spirit!! (Of course we don't ALWAYS sense the Holy Spirit; but He's always working on us.) Instead I was concentrating on overcoming sin through faith in Jesus - examining cans of food to make sure there was no lard inside - trying to keep from secular thoughts on the Sabbath; etc. etc. __________________________________ As posted in an earlier reply WHATEVER IS NOT OF FAITH IS SIN. You are defining sin as breaking the Ten Commandments. I do not take that position. Read my post on 1 John 3:4. My position is that we must HAVE FAITH and overcome unbelief and that unbelief is SIN, not breaking the Ten Commandments. I have not wavered on what I have presented, so it is not fair to say I am not clear on my beliefs. I am very clear on them and have presented them very plainly and consistenly. ______________________ You say that WE have to be overcoming sin by grace through faith in Jesus. That puts the whole burden on ourselves. ________________________________ Read my post, Witnessing to an Adventist Caught in Legalism. See if that is what I am teaching for yourself. Like I said, I think there is a prejudice built up against me on this forum now because of this post and the strong opposition I received on it. In every animal pack, it is natures way to gang up on the one the leader of the pack turns on, Humans do this all the time, we are conditioned from school age through graduation into these packs. Doing so makes us feel like we are part of the bigger more popular group. And that all by itself is putting a veil up concerning what I have said on this forum. People are looking at my articles for things to prove them wrong in stead of just reading them and asking what is He really saying here. That attitude will misconstrue my position into saying something I never said. I am concerned that this will happen on everything I write from here on out. Prejudice has that kind of effect on people. That is why I started to think it best I simply move on. First impressions are important. Our first date did not go well. When that happens second dates are usually a waste of time. | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 222 Registered: 6-2008 |
Talked to River yesterday. He's fine, just taking a break. Don't worry--he'll be back! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1308 Registered: 7-2007 |
Michael, we're not "turning on you." I think we all, (I for sure!), are VERY concerned for you! I didn't mean that you weren't clear in your mind as to what you believe. I meant that you haven't completely learned the gospel yet. Now before you get mad about that, remember that all of us (I for sure!) just want to help you understand the gospel better. Not that we know it all! We don't. But we have learned a few things and are eager to share! You've learned a few things as well, but you are mistaken on some of the things you are getting so angry about people disagreeing with. That anger isn't from the Holy Spirit. | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 60 Registered: 7-2010 |
Asurprise, What you interpret as anger, is the feeling of being misunderstood the feelings that result in having my words misrepresented, and my articles merits challenged over ridiculous charges like using the KJV. The feeling that although many on this forum feel and believe exactly as I do, (I know because some have written me directly and told me they do), that these people no longer speak up because the other group bull dozered or Sherman tanked all over them and won't back off unless they have their views forced into compliance or silence. These letters reflect people that are sick of this other group trying to compel their conscience to believe something. They left a cult that did that and refuse to have it happen here. They no longer speak up because in the past when they did, they were ganged up on and relentlessly persecuted. You condemn a great deal of your members on this forum. People have whispered in this thread and more openly in letters directly sent to my email, that there are many of this forum who believe exactly as I do on this matter. You say I have not learned the gospel, well you just condemned half of your forums membership under the same statement. I believe in salvation by grace alone, just as do these others. What part of the gospel have I not learned? Let's see, I know, that God has exercised his Sovereign will against BILLIONS of people throughout history and condemned them to burn in hell for all eternity, and that they had no choice in the matter. That's what you call "good news?" My Jesus did not come to condemn but to save. Calvinism's Jesus has condemned BILLIONS to eternal torment without hope or mercy against their will with no way of choosing a path that would save them from this fate. Let me be clear! I will never believe that! I have been a generous and respectful as I can. Even as an Adventist it was always a turn off to me, when people would preach about others convictions and call the Whore, and Babylon or Demon lead, and other harsh phrases. I have had that same type of language written about my article, and have tried to maintain a kind spirit about it. This doctrine that God condemns people against their will with no way of choosing a path that would save them from this fate is what should cause the real concern here. Believe me it does, however those who are concerned and offended by this view no longer say anything. There is conditioning on this forum just as much as I ever saw in the Adventist church at least in regards to this issue. People don't want to be put outside the camp, they do not want to be ridiculed, they do not want to be pounced on! Just because Colleen, Jeremy and others likeminded in this view of Predestination are the ONLY ONES speaking out on this forum anymore does not mean that everyone on this forum believes what you do. This is a very divided group. Pressing this issue will only serve to be extremely divisive and harmful. It makes all those on the Predestination side happy, but it is WALKING ALL OVER THE OTHER GROUP who sit in silence and just take it, you just don't see that because they will not stick up for themselves anymore. You folks are stamping all over the faith of many of your members with some very strong language. How could that not be divisive? Only because those whose faith you condemn are passive and will not speak up anymore. You have conditioned them that if they do they will be ridiculed ganged up on and bullied until they are compelled to believe your teachings. I have letters that say exactly that. SO this is not my view of things. I am frustrated that you guys want to force my conscience and won't stop even though I have asked you to. YES! I have every right to be unhappy with this treatment. The difference is I WILL SPEAK UP AND DEFEND MY VIEWS, I WILL NOT LET YOU BULLY ME AND WALK ALL OVER ME! I am saying as clearly as I can I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS! This treatment is getting down right offensive! This is the method used by Catholics during the dark ages. Unrelenting tactics to compel conformity, and if a person does not they are branded a heretic and estranged from the group. I have been effectively alienated by one group on this forum, but that does not mean this applies to me alone. There is an entire class of members of this forum you have hurt as well, (I may be getting the brunt of this, but so be it) they just are conditioned not to say anything openly about it anymore. Do you want to go on and continue WALKING ALL OVER my faith, and the faith of many others on this forum? Do you want to press this issue day after day with no end? Both sides have stated their position. Leave it at that. I am confident in what I shared. I have nothing to be ashamed of. Let it bare record from here to eternity. I have nothing to add, although I could. I think the scriptures speak for themselves. Your side has made their rebuttals. Let the reader decide for themselves. But for heaven's sake let's stop trying to push this issue. Enough is enough! I was worried about my first impression, well guys, you have left your first impression with me as well. (Message edited by michaelsavedbygrace on July 23, 2010) |
