| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11429
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 2:35 pm: |     |
Yes, I understand what both of you are saying, Hec and Bb. This understanding, though, isn't necessarily biblical. I don't mean to beat this idea into the ground, but I have to say it because probably most of us learned to think of salvation this way.
To be sure, there will be people who are born again and never have the chance to participate fully in the body of Christ for various reasons. Nevertheless, when we are born again (and Jesus Himself said that the new birth was required in order to see the kingdom of heaven), He teaches us what we have to "correct" and abandon in our lives.
In general, people who believe that Jesus is their Savior are born again. These people can hold differing understandings about secondary issues.
However, many people believe Jesus is their Savior—like most Adventists I know—but they are not necessarily saved. Their belief in Jesus is a cognitive awareness that He died for our sins...but without understanding that His death is a complete atonement. I don't know any Adventist who wouldn't say Jesus is their Savior. They are TAUGHT to say that.
In practice, however, that means that He is necessary for their salvation, but He is not ALL that is needed. A person who believes there is more than Jesus involved, even though he may say Jesus is his Savior, is just not necessarily saved.
We are saved when we trust Jesus for everything needed for our eternal security. If we "trust" Jesus but then feel we must keep observing Sabbath or food laws or honoring EGW or WHATEVER, we are not trusting Jesus alone.
So, yes—if we trust Jesus alone for our salvation and bow before Him in repentance and accept Him as Lord of our lives, we are saved and born again. If we acknowledge Him but continue with observances we think are necessary to demonstrate we're saved, we're just not necessarily born again.
Colleen |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 199
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 5:15 pm: | |
So it's like getting into a boat with a great Captain and a powerful engine, and bringing along your own oars so you can row it yourself! |
Bb
Registered user
Username: Bb
Post Number: 729
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 1:26 am: | |
Yes I see! And look how much you are missing by sitting back there rowing and rowing and not having it help at all.
I guess the ones who have NOT totally accepted Jesus as having given them full atonement are attaching their rowboats to the fiberglass boat and rowing alongside; they are not really inside the safety of the big boat, due to wanting to do it themselves and not trusting. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1154
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 7:23 am: | |
If I take my paddles and I row along in the big boat, that would not help at all. It would be a waste of time and effort, but wouldn't I get wherever the boat is going, being that I am inside the boat? My journey would not be as pleasant as the ones who are enjoying the ride, but I'll arrive just the same. Or not?
Hec |
Bb
Registered user
Username: Bb
Post Number: 730
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 7:43 am: | |
But you are then not trusting in Jesus or putting your faith in Him! You are relying on believing in Jesus as the Savior, but you aren't willing to accept the free gift of what He did.
So I really don't know if you will arrive or not. Probably when a big storm comes along your little rowboat will not be able to remain attached to the steamboat since you are not allowing yourself the safety of being in the boat letting Jesus take complete control. |
Hec
Registered user
Username: Hec
Post Number: 1157
Registered: 3-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 8:17 am: | |
I did not say my row boat was attached to the steamboat, I said that I was inside the steamboat, but I was rowing with my paddles. My rowing wouldn't make a difference, but because I'm in the boat, I'll get to the destination.
Hec |
Bb
Registered user
Username: Bb
Post Number: 731
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 10:35 am: | |
Whew, this is getting hard!  Ok, now I'm stumped. I'm sure even when we are saved most of us are always struggling and therefore always rowing, but if we are safe with Jesus we should reach that destination.
I'll let someone else jump in... |
Yenc
Registered user
Username: Yenc
Post Number: 207
Registered: 6-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 11:04 am: | |
The problem here that I see is that NO analogy is a perfect analogy. ANY analogy can be picked apart to the point that the purpose of using it fails.
Let's not be so nit-picky about the analogy that we lose the point! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11441
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 12:17 pm: | |
Indeed, Yenc. But again, I believe the reality of this question lies in considering "spirit". The reason we can't accurately hone this metaphor is that the reality is not just physical.
If we are born again, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and eternally alive with the literal life of God, in Christ instead of in Adam, we will get to our destination regardless of whether we are in an attached rowboat or in the main boat. We just can't know for sure whether individuals are born again.
The thing we can know is that if we do not actually surrender our lives and sin to Jesus and accept His death on our behalf, we won't be born again. It is this relationship of us as abysmally hopeless sinners receiving the sacrifice of Jesus that defines saving faith.
If we aren't taught the truth about Jesus and His blood, we likely can't place our faith in Him. We still feel we have to work toward Him, or cooperate with Him.
Bottom line: we are individually commanded to "believe" and to "make disciples", teaching people to do all the things He commanded...teaching them to believe Him and to love as He loved.
Our position must be one of humility and ongoing surrender. People who believe their behavior is what God judges in order to determine the condition of a person's heart do not understand the gospel.
Colleen |
Nowisee
Registered user
Username: Nowisee
Post Number: 453
Registered: 5-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2010 - 12:31 am: | |
Whew, I agree with Bb. All I know is that as a faithful EGW follower, the vessel I found myself on was the Titanic!
And Jesus was the lifeboat I was able to board.
What a great discussion you started, Hec! |
Bb
Registered user
Username: Bb
Post Number: 732
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2010 - 5:09 am: | |
So true Colleen!! That's the thing...His sheep KNOW His voice, it's a Spirit thing!! |
Joyfulheart
Registered user
Username: Joyfulheart
Post Number: 725
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2010 - 9:40 am: | |
Nowisee, we were ALL on the Titanic! Praise God for sending Jesus to rescue us! |
