| Author | Message | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2010 |
Bare with me a couple sentences as I introduce this post with a brief three line word study. . . this is way worth it. The Greek word for “judgment” 48 times in the Bible is the Transliteration: “krisis“ - Strong’s Greek & Hebrew Dictionary. The English word “CRISIS” is a “Middle English, from Latin, judgment, from Greek krisis” - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/crisis. That means that the English word “Crisis” has its roots in the Greek word “krisis” which is translated "Judgment" in the KJV. Are you ready for “Good News?” FOR THOSE WHO HAVE ACCEPTED CHRIST, THE CRISIS REGARDING THEIR STANDING BEFORE GOD IS OVER! Christ proves this when He said, THE SAINTS DO “NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT (krisis)” John 5:24 RSV For the Adventist this controversy wages against him relentlessly day after day year after year. It is called the Great Controversy. The Adventist is in a state of continued crisis until he passes the fictitious doctrine of the Investigative Judgment. The standard is nothing less than perfect obedience, to A. the writings of Ellen White, B. the Ten Commandments, C. Bible, and D. the life of Christ, including every thought, every deed, and every motive whether remembered or not. All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of Heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. - The Great Controversy p. 483. “Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal or woe. Though they may be forgotten by us, they will bear their testimony to justify or condemn. They go before us to the Judgment.” (Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4, p. 311) What is Forgiveness? Forgiveness is God’s promise to completely forget your trespasses. Forgiveness is God’s promise to never mention your sins again. The Bible teaches that once you accept God’s promises, that your sins are forgotten (BLOTTED OUT) and that He will never mention them again. They are IMMEDIATELY AND COMPLETELY FORGIVEN. However, according to Ellen White’s writings sin is not “canceled” until Christ performs his work in the Holy Place in Heaven during the Investigative Judgment sometime between 1844 A.D. and His future Second Coming. The Bible teaches that the repentant sinner is protected by the robe of Christ’s righteousness. He is sheltered completely in the sight of God by the righteous life of Jesus Christ. The shame of his sinful life is completely covered by this garment. The Law cannot penetrate this robe neither can it reveal the shame of his sins. The robe signifies forgiveness, adoption into God’s family, and a total acceptance by heaven. The Investigative Judgment teaching peels back this robe, and reveals the “righteous” persons own character, in an unprotected and naked state exposing the repentant sinners own works to judgment. Christ’s life record is not imputed to them, they must pass this judgment based on their own works. According to Ellen White the characters of God’s people must be able to stand on their own merit and be found in complete harmony with the Law of God during this investigative judgment in order to obtain forgiveness and eternal life. Ecclesiastes 7:20 (KJV) 20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. None? Accept for Christ! The Bible truth is that Christ’s robe of righteousness, covers the shame of our sinful characters, from the condemnation of God’s holy law, so that in Christ we are accepted by God. Were God to actually judge the works of the saints, their most righteous deeds would be condemned as “filthy rags.” The Bible already makes this verdict. Such an investigative judgment would be futile, since not one deed could truly be called “righteous.” Isaiah 64:6 (KJV) All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; The only deeds with any merit in the sight of God were done by Jesus Christ. Cavalry justifies us of all charges. Christ has never sinned. So long as we are IN CHRIST we are viewed as though we too have never sinned. Romans 3:28 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 4:5 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Galatians 2:16 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 3:11 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. John 5:24 RSV “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” Justification means that Christ has legally proven that the sinner is innocent of all charges, - justification is a pronounced verdict of innocent. There are no legal grounds to call innocent people into judgment. As soon as a person is justified Christ himself by his own blood proclaims that no sin is imputed against him. Justification means “all charges are dropped!” In the united states once a person has been found not innocent of a crime he cannot be brought back into court for that crime, this is called “double jeopardy!” Ellen white’s teaching of an investigative judgment is a violation of “double jeopardy!” (Message edited by michaelsavedbygrace on July 21, 2010) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8346 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thank you Michael for reminding me I have nothing to worry about. Thank you awesome God for Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour. Diana | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2010 |
Hi Diana, God is awesome! We all need reassurance of God's love mercy and forgiveness from time to time, especially since we come from a back ground of being indoctrinated by the writings of Ellen White! Below are the Bible verses I read when I need such assurances. I think it appropriate to pray together before reading them. We are after all reading about the greatest of all gifts. Praise His Holy Name! Since we are all in different places and can communicate on a message board, how often do we get a chance to come together and pray? Dear Heavenly Father, Thou art holy and blameless, and I am sinful and wretched. Pardon my transgressions so that I may not be ashamed at the coming of Thy Son Jesus Christ. Thou hast promised to forgive my sins and wash away all memories in heaven and earth of that which condemns me. I acknowledge my iniquities, my sins and my nakedness. I am poor and have nothing with which to pay my great debt. I have nothing with which to plead besides the blood of your dear Son, and that of your precious promises. I ask for Jesus Christ to be both my Lord and my Savior both now and forever. I believe in the power of your Son's atonement for my life of sin, and accept the gift of His life death and resurrection on my behalf. I claim the promises in your word listed on these pages to forgive and cleanse me from the power of sin. Thank you, Heavenly Father for the salvation which I have received by your grace alone. I decide to walk in newness of life through faith in the power of your salvation. May God help me, for on Thee alone do I trust. In the name of Jesus of Nazareth, AMEN! Nehemiah 9:17 And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not. Psalm_19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Psa_25:7 Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD. Psalm_32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Psalm_32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah. Psalm_51:2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. Psalm_51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Psalm_51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Psalm_65:3 Iniquities prevail against me:as for our transgressions, thou shalt purge them away. Psalm_79:9 Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake. Psalm_103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; Psalm_119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. Psalm_130:4 But thereis forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. Isaiah_1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Isaiah_1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah_6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. Isaiah_43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Isaiah_44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. Isaiah_54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. Isaiah_54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; butwith everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. Isaiah_54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. Isaiah_54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. Isaiah_55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. Jeremiah_4:14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee? Ezekiel_18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Ezekiel_36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, andye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. Micah_7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger foRevelationer, because he delighteth in mercy. Micah_7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. Zechariah_13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. Malachi_3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Matthew_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: Matthew_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Luke_17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. Luke_18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Luke_18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. Acts_3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Acts_13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: Acts_22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts_26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Romans_5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 1 Corinthians_5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Ephesians_1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Ephesians_1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Ephesians_4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Ephesians_5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Colossians_1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Colossians_3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. Hebrews_8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Hebrews_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews_10:17 Andtheir sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 1 Peter_1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1 John_1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and tocleanse us from all unrighteousness. Revelation_1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellow servants, which owed him a hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee? Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. (Message edited by michaelsavedbygrace on July 21, 2010) (Message edited by michaelsavedbygrace on July 21, 2010) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1156 Registered: 3-2009 |
Weren't we forgiven at the cross? Hec | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 26 Registered: 7-2010 |
Yes sir! Romans 5:10-11 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Aside from Romans, Hebrews makes this point very clear. Heb 10:5 — For this reason, when Christ came into the world, he said, “‘You did not want sacrifices and offerings, but you prepared a body for me. Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST once for all. Heb 10:12 — However, this chief priest made one sacrifice for sins, and THIS SACRIFICE LASTS FOREVER. Then he received the highest position in heaven. Heb 10:14 — WITH ONE SACRIFICE HE ACCOMPLISHED THE WORK of setting them apart for God forever. Heb 10:20 — Jesus has opened a new and living way for us to go through the curtain. (THE CURTAIN IS HIS OWN BODY.) Heb 9:12 — He used his own blood, not the blood of goats and bulls, for the sacrifice. He went into the most holy place and OFFERED THIS SACRIFICE ONCE AND FOR ALL TO FREE US FOREVER. Heb 9:26 — Otherwise, he would have had to suffer many times since the world was created. But now, at the end of the ages, HE HAS APPEARED ONCE TO REMOVE SIN BY HIS SACRIFICE. Heb 9:28 — Likewise, CHRIST WAS SACRIFICED ONCE TO TAKE AWAY THE SINS OF HUMANITY, and after that he will appear a second time. This time he will not deal with sin, but he will save those who eagerly wait for him. Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. (Message edited by michaelsavedbygrace on July 21, 2010) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1158 Registered: 3-2009 |
Michaelsavebygrace, If we were forgiven at the cross, why do we need to plead with God for forgiveness, according to your post 25? Hec | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2010 |
The title of this post "The Great Controversy" - IT IS FINISHED!!! - is a reference to the cross when Jesus said IT IS FINISHED!  | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1159 Registered: 3-2009 |
Michaelsavebygrace, If we were forgiven at the cross, why do we need to plead with God for forgiveness, according to your post 25? Hec | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 28 Registered: 7-2010 |
Your question must be in reference to my prayer, "I have nothing with which to plead besides the blood of your dear Son, and that of your precious promises." Only Christ can be my advocate. Only the blood of Christ can vindicate me. That is exactly what "plead" means. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/plead plead (pld) v. plead·ed or pled (pld), plead·ing, pleads v.intr. 1. To appeal earnestly; beg: plead for more time. 2. To offer reasons for or against something; argue earnestly: plead against a bill. 3. To provide an argument or appeal: Your youth pleads for you in this instance. 4. Law a. To put forward a plea of a specific nature in court: plead guilty. b. To make or answer an allegation in a legal proceeding. c. To address a court as a lawyer or advocate. v.tr. 1. To assert as defense, vindication, or excuse; claim as a plea: plead illness. 2. Law a. To present as an answer to a charge, indictment, or declaration made against one. b. To argue or present (a case) in a court or similar tribunal. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1160 Registered: 3-2009 |
Your whole prayer and the list of verses that follow it is a pleading for forgiveness. My question is, is your sins were forgiven at the cross, why the desperate pleading? Hec | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2010 |
Luke 18:10-14 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And THE PUBLICAN, STANDING AFAR OFF, WOULD NOT LIFT UP SO MUCH AS HIS EYES UNTO HEAVEN, BUT SMOTE UPON HIS BREAST, SAYING, GOD BE MERCIFUL TO ME A SINNER. 14 I tell you, THIS MAN WENT DOWN TO HIS HOUSE JUSTIFIED RATHER THAN THE OTHER: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2010 |
Paul after he was forgiven continued to recognize his condition. Romans 7:24 (KJV) 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Hec, I appreciate your concern, I assure you I have perfect peace with God. I am not "desperate" rather I recognize that I have nothing but the blood of Christ to stand on. That is exactly the place we ought to be. | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2010 |
Brother, I must ask, is it your belief, that we only need make confession of sins once in our entire lifetime, and that we never need ask God for forgiveness for anything we ever do again? If you do ask for forgiveness on what do you "plea" your case if it is not on the death of Jesus Christ? (Message edited by michaelsavedbygrace on July 21, 2010) | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2010 |
I am puzzled why sharing scriptures promising God's forgiveness has brought you so much concern? Are New Covenant Christians to bansih such verses from their minds? Are New Covenant Christians never to ask for God's forgiveness ever again? I find such to be a strange teaching. I hope this is not what has caused your heart to be distressed against my prayer and these Bible promises. "I have nothing with which to plead besides the blood of your dear Son" how can such a statement offend a fellow Christian?" How can presenting the blood of Christ as an answer to the laws charges against me as my only defense or plea offend a fellow Christian? I truly do not understand where you are coming from. Help me out here. (Message edited by michaelsavedbygrace on July 21, 2010) | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2010 |
Is repentance not a Christian teaching? What is repentance if it is not remorse over our sins? What man would not humble himself before God when he recognizes "that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." 1 Timothy 1:15. The fathers of the reformation believed that the Christian life was a life dedicated to repentance. If we ever cease to recongnize the mire from which we have been saved, that is the day we cease to be humble before God. 1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. Why would Paul say that he died DAILY? Furthermore why would he say that the Cross is our core message and that it should be preached continually? Why would Christ give us the Lord's supper asking us to remember his spilled blood and broken body? Brother Hec, we need to recognize our sinful condition DAILY and further realize what great price has been paid on our behalf DAILY, and thereby see our need for Christ DAILY. We will have greater joy DAILY if we do! The cross is our only hope brother, never should be discourage another for coming to it for forgiveness of sins. Never! (Message edited by michaelsavedbygrace on July 21, 2010) | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2010 |
Hec, Didn't you read the post that started this thread? If you had you would have seen that yes I believe the Cross has vindicated us before the law of God. That was the whole point of this post. You and I have not met in person, and I am in fact the new guy here. Most newbie's probably come looking for answers. Rarely do the new guys come with something to offer . . . am I right? The last 48 hours I have posted many things, and if I know human nature every group including this one has a pecking order that has already been established. My presence may appear to challenge this pecking order since I just jumped right in and started sharing things. I can't help but think that your comments were simply an attempt to "take me down a notch." Let me make myself very clear. I do not believe the Body of Christ has a pecking order at all. WE ARE ALL EQUALS! There is only one head and that is Christ. Christ said, Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and ALL YE ARE BRETHREN. The 12 spent their time trying to establish their pecking order. This is folly brothers. I felt this forum would be a place to share articles and discuss my new found discoveries. I did not come here to try to be better than anyone else or to spend time challenging a sense of hierarchy. I am simply a new guy on this forum who has been studying a great deal the last few months and wants to share what I have been studying and bounce these articles off of others that are likeminded. If this makes anyone feel threatened or uncomfortable, simply ask me to move on and I will. Whatever you do don't try to use the Cross of my savior to make me feel guilty because I take my stand with it. I have had enough of one religion already that has tried to heap its guilt on me. I hope you all can find room for me here. - Michael. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1161 Registered: 3-2009 |
Michael, I'm sorry to have upset you. I'm not distress at all. If you go back and check on my old posts, you will learn, as you will after a while that I am not a judgmental person. That I like to ask questions for my own learning. My questions to you were in no way trying to bring you down. As a matter of fact, I enjoy your posts very much. And as far as I know, there is no pecking order in this forum. I appreciate your sharing what you already has learned and researched. You are just taking me to seriously. Please, keep posting what you have. You know I even asked you to mail me some stuff. So, don't take it so personal, otherwise, you won't be able to take River when he awakes from his slumber (LOL) You'll know what I'm talking about as soon as he wakes up. Share away. Just know that all that share, sometimes will be question, not to correct them but by some like me who are not as smart and need clarification. I hope this ease your feelings. I want you to feel welcome in this forum. I'm about in the lowest run of the pecking order, if there were one, which I don't think there is. So, let's keep going for His honor. Hec | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 206 Registered: 6-2008 |
Michaelsavedbygrace, I understand your puzzlement. Many here on this Forum, and even more not on the Forum, believe the doctrine popularly called "Once Saved Always Saved," "Eternal Security," "Perseverance of the Saints," "Unconditional Grace," and other terms. Adventists reject this doctrine, as do many other Christians. Calvinism lives and breathes here among many very vocal Forumites. It has been a major bone of contention here. I think Hec is trying to determine your stance on this controversy and possibly draw you into the melee. Speaking for myself, I can see some valid points for each side, but not enough to convince me that all our sins--past, present, and FUTURE--are forgiven and that we no longer need to ask for forgiveness, or that believers cannot be lost if they turn around and reject what they once believed, or that if they reject Christ after professing belief that they did not believe in the first place. . . Speaking only for myself, I see too many texts warning believers not to fall away, too many exhortations to "flee the devil as a roaring lion," too many ifs --"If we confess our sins..." "If . . ." "If . . ." "If . . " SDAs are not generally well-informed about doctrines held by non-SDAs but which are not taught by their own church. You might want to bone up on this one if you haven't studied it much. I recommend an excellent, 801-page book by Daniel D. Corner, entitled The Believer's Conditional Security. (If you need a source referral, I'll be happy to supply the info. I got my copy from a used book dealer on-line.) Yen | ||
| Cortney Registered user Username: Cortney Post Number: 116 Registered: 8-2006 |
I enjoy reading your post Michael! I don't know if I believe 'once saved always saved' and I'm not exactly agreeing with the 5 points of Calvinism, but I don't believe that 1 religion alone has all the 'truth' as sda's proclaim. I remember in SS one time there was an argument over sin, forgiveness, and predestination, the SS teacher got mad and stressed that predestination is not possible because God is waiting to save as many souls as He can. Do you have any thoughts on this point, it always baffled me. Would this thought process have anything to do with the IJ? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11437 Registered: 12-2003  |
Michael, I think I can explain the "concern", and I think I can perhaps shed light on Hec's question. Everything you said above about our forgiveness and the imputed righteousness of Christ is real. I do believe, however, that there is an element in this whole miracle that is never clear unless we deal with "spirit". The righteousness that God imputes to us is not primarily His sinless life. To be sure, His life before the cross redeems our lives. He was the perfect Adam who never sinned, and in this way His life gives us who are in Him a new heritage and identity. But Jesus' sinlessness was not primarily because He kept the law. That was just the way His actual sinlessness demonstrated itself. He was sinless because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and had the actual life of God in Him from conception. He was the only human who did not have to be born again. We are born literally dead in sin (Eph. 2:1-3). We are naturally citizens of the domain of darkness (Col 1:13). This death is our inheritance from Adam (1 Cor 15:22; Romans 5:12-14). Before we receive the Lord Jesus, we are literally the "walking dead". Adam and Eve actually did die the day they ate the fruit. God said they would; He would have lied had they not. The actual life of God that God breathed into Adam when He created him left. Adam and Eve were left with dead spirits. This is the reason they suddenly knew they were naked and felt shame. They were severed from the life of God that made them living souls. Now they were living bodies, but they were not living souls any longer. They were dead in sin. The righteousness of Christ that God imputes to us when we receive Him is not the credit of Jesus' sinless life, although that is part of what identifies us now. The righteousness God imputes to us is the literal, intrinsic perfection of God that was Jesus' true righteousness. Romans 5:18-19 tells us
It was Jesus' obedience unto death that is the act of righteousness that restores the life of God to us. It is because Jesus was "a propitiation in His blood" for our sin (Rom 3:26) that we are justified and counted righteous. It is this obedience unto death that is credited to us for our justification. Our forgiveness is a legal transaction, for sure, that totally eradicates the record of our sin. Period. But our righteousness is not primarily the credit of obedience and right-doing that Jesus did. Rather, the righteousness that is credited to us is the blood of Jesus. This is the robe of righteousness that covers us. When we accept Jesus' sacrifice for our sin with saving faith, the miracle happens: we are born again by the Spirit (John 3:3-5). "Flesh give birth to flesh," Jesus told Nicodemus, "but spirit gives birth to spirit." The Holy Spirit comes to us and indwells us, giving us the actual life, the eternal life of God that is a guarantee of our glorification (Eph 1:13-14), and we are restored to the eternal life and indwelling life of God that Adam and Eve had before they sinned. At that moment we pass from death to life (John 4:25), not just figuratively but LITERALLY, because we receive God's own life indwelling us. God transfers us from the domain of darkness to the kindgom of His beloved Son (Col 1:13). Jesus "became sin" for us so that we might become the righteousness of God "in Him" (2 Cor. 5:21). Repentance as we live with our new life is necessary, but not because we might lose the life of Christ in us. He calls us, keeps, us, and loves us (Jude 2). Romans 6 and 7 describe clearly the reality that when we are born again and brought to life spiritually, we still inhabit sinful flesh. Our flesh is not redeemed until the resurrection. Romans 8:10 says,
This spiritual life is not a metaphor; it is REAL. God Himself brings our spirits to life; our bodies, however, remain dead until the resurrection. Meanwhile, we struggle. The life of God in us makes us aware of the ways we are tempted to sin. The Holy Spirit points out how we serve our flesh instead of the Spirit. He gives us the ability to surrender the moments of our temptation to Him, thus slowly beginning to "put to death the deeds of the flesh" (Rom. 8:13). But the Holy Spirit doesn't leave us. We have been born of God and sealed by His Spirit, and not even death can separate us from God's love (Rm 8:38-39). Repentance is necessary so we can continue our spiritual growth and not become "frozen", following our own impulses instead of the Spirit's. 1 Cor. 3:7-10 even describes the fact that believers can spend their lives as born-again Christ-followers doing work that is not Spirit-led work. When they meet Jesus face to face, they will be rewarded (not given eternal life, because that is a GIFT, not a reward) for what they have done in the flesh. Either they will receive rewards for having done God's own Spirit-directed work which will last for eternity, or their works will be burned up—but they themselves will be saved. Repentance is now for the purpose of integrity and growth in the Lord Jesus. As Beth Moore says, salvation is a gift; satisfaction must be pursued. When we are literally made spiritually alive, we are saved. Period. But we must be willing to continue to surrender our dreams, our desires, our anxiety, our ideas—the people and things we love—to the Lord Jesus, asking Him to be all we need and to show us the work He has prepared in advance for us. The issue of security and repentance doesn't fully make sense unless we also see the biblical truth of our human spirit. The righteousness of Christ we receive is His own LIFE which He purchased for us with His blood. Jesus' obedience to God's law is not what won us the robe of righteousness; His obedience unto death and His spilled blood is what wins us that robe. We are literally covered in God's sight by Jesus' blood. That blood is what He credits to us. When Jesus' blood is credited to our account, we are not only forgiven; we are made spiritually alive. The life is in the blood. Colleen | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 120 Registered: 5-2009 |
Amen, Colleen. I especially think this point you made is important: "Repentance is necessary so we can continue our spiritual growth..." and "Repentance is now for the purpose of integrity and growth in the Lord Jesus." I recently argued with an SDA pastor who insisted that in order to "stay saved" you had to confess your sins daily and ask for forgiveness. What bondage. Yenc -- I'm sure you've studied the issue extensively (Calvinism), but I have 2 resources to suggest that speak to the issues you raised (better articulated than others I've heard). I recommend these to anyone exploring the claims promoted by Calvinists. One is a sermon by Jack Graham -KEPT- http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/powerpoint/listen/kept-87372.html The other is the book - The Doctrines of Grace. http://www.amazon.com/Doctrines-Grace-Rediscovering-Evangelical-Gospel/dp/1433511282/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279741558&sr=8-1 | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11444 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yenc, I believe those repeated exhortations to stay faithful are not so much for the sake of trying to keep the saved SAVED, but to exhort people to surrender all of themselves to the Lord Jesus. The parable of the soils in Matthew 13 is very instructive. There is the hard soil on which the gospel seeds cannot root; the birds eat them. Then there's the rocky soil—those seeds actually do germinate and produce what looks like healthy plants. Similarly, the weedy soil also germinates gospel plants, but they're malnourished. In the case of the rocky soil, those apparently healthy plants actually have no root system. When the heat's on, they die. Those in the weeds are never properly nourished; the soil is busy supporting the love of worldly pursuits and money and the accompanying anxiety. In each case of the poor soil and their plants, there actually are plants—but they never mature and bear fruit. Fruit is the sign of an authentic gospel plant. The NT is full of exhortations to people to allow the gospel to be their only food, their only focus, to put down roots in Truth and Jesus. If a person responds to the gospel double-mindedly, or half-heartedly—which many people do—they do not truly place their trust in Jesus. We can't tell from looking, in a great many cases, when we're looking at a person with a flurry of "gospel growth" that is not yet rooted or that is competing for the person's energy and gospel nourishment. In any church as our women's ministry leader often says, there are at least three kinds of people: the truly born again, those who love the life of the church and are attracted to the gospel and its claims, and the unbelieving observers. We just can't always tell which category a person is in. We have to be faithful to keep calling people to integrity. The fruit of a life can give a hint as to the condition; when someone is in open sin, we must restore them gently. If a person is truly growing in the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23), they know Jesus. And as individuals, we are always to be accountable. We are to be willing to know what Jesus wants us to know, to admit what He wants us to admit, to allow His word to deeply teach us what is real and to change our hearts. Colleen | ||
| Michaelsavedbygrace Registered user Username: Michaelsavedbygrace Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2010 |
Thank you all for your responses. What a bunch we have here huh? I started a new thread for the calvinism topic. This is for Yenc I found this quote. "If Jesus forgave me for my sins, do I have to keep asking him to forgive me every time I sin? "Yes and no. When Jesus died for your sins, he died for all sins, past, present, and future. Sins you committed years ago, and sins you will commit in the future have already been forgiven. Your forgiveness is total, complete, and whole. At the same time, the life of a Christian is a life of repentance. We should continually be coming to Christ, humbly confessing our sins and acknowledging the price he paid to forgive them. Confession does not obtain forgiveness; we already have that. Instead, it removes the barrier to communication with God that we put up when we sin." - Practical Christianity, Chapter 20, Sin and the Christian p. 508. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1162 Registered: 3-2009 |
Colleen says:
SDAs say that Jesus righteousness is his obedience to the law of God and that He obeyed the law perfectly, therefore He gives us His perfect obedience. But according the the above quote, it is His obedience unto death, not unto the law. Very interesting. Hec | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 209 Registered: 6-2008 |
Michael, I think it was Hec who asked that question. Yen |
