| Author | Message | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 112 Registered: 5-2009 |
I was browsing one of those Answers in Genesis books when I came across a chapter about the origins of Satan, etc. They built a biblical case around the idea that Satan (unfallen) and the angels were created during creation week. (The explanation is that Satan and 1/3 of the angels sinned and were cast out of heaven sometime after Day 7 and, of course, before Eve's temptation.) I can type out their explanation if anyone is interested, or you can just look it up in "The New Answers Book 2" edited by Ken Ham. The validity of the argument, is not really my point. Heck, there probably is no debate in Christianity about this. I haven't even delved into studying this topic for myself...I was just so taken aback ONCE AGAIN that I'd never even considered that what I assumed (that Satan and the angels existed before earth was created) was wrong and from the pit of...EGW. *sigh* Just another example on how deeply embedded the Adventist worldview is in my head. Drives me nuts. Only God can fix it, uproot it and untangle it...or burn it, whatever He wants... just do it, please, Lord. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3255 Registered: 10-2004  |
Cloudwatcher, Yes, this is another area in which Adventism (EGW) has added to the Bible instead of taking God's Word at face value and for what it says and the account that it gives. The angels could not have been created before Day 1 of Creation, because Day 1 was Day 1. In other words, Day 1 was the First Day. Ever. "and God calleth to the light 'Day,' and to the darkness He hath called 'Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day one." (Genesis 1:5, Young's Literal Translation). There was no such thing as time before Day 1. That is "when" (if you can even say that) time was created. Adventism, on the other hand, teaches that time is eternal and has always existed (an oxymoron) and that God Himself has always been trapped inside of time and space and matter. "Before" Day 1, there was nothing except for God Himself, who is outside of time and "who alone possesses immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16) and who alone is eternal in the full sense of the word. In fact, as far as the fall of Satan goes, I see no reason to add to the Biblical account. In other words, I believe the fall of Satan could be right there in Genesis 3, when he lied to Eve. In fact, that's when God cursed Satan (Genesis 3:15), at the same time that He cursed man and woman and the serpent. Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 13, 2010) | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1134 Registered: 3-2009 |
Jeremy, are we to take for granted that the only creation of god is this earth? If He is the creator, isn't it kind of automatic that He would create other worlds? God being eternal and creator would not have created other worlds before earth, especially if we take the theory of the young earth? Of course the Bible doesn't mention anything about that, that I know of, but does the Bible mention everything there is to mention? Hec | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 166 Registered: 6-2008 |
Just as we have been misled by the imaginary "revelations" of EGW, we need to be careful not to assume things not made clear in Scripture. We do not know when the angels were created. If it occurred during earth's Creation Week, it seems such a momentous thing would have been specifically mentioned. The numbers attached to the days of Creation Week specify only the creation sequence of earthly things (and things visible to us, i.e. the sun, moon, etc.). A God with such astounding creativity may have been very busy creating other things during the immeasurable eternity of His power before He got around to creating the earth a few thousand years ago. We are not told, so we should not presume He did no creating before this! We do not know how long Adam and Eve lived in the Garden before they sinned. It could have been only a few days, but it could have been considerably longer. We are not told, so we cannot make assumptions. We do not know if or when other worlds or universes may have been created, or if there is life anywhere else besides here. We are not told, so, again, we cannot be dogmatic about it. We obviously can't go check it out! (EGW notwithstanding!) We do not know when Satan "fell from heaven." We only know that he did and that Jesus witnessed it (proving the pre-mortal existence of Jesus, in His own words: Luke 10:18.) I suspect that what we know about God and His activities is less than a drop in the ocean compared to the reality! And I'm sure that we couldn't possibly comprehend even that much if we had been told! We will have eternity to learn about God and His amazing activities, and we shall hardly scratch the surface even then! | ||
| Bskillet Registered user Username: Bskillet Post Number: 725 Registered: 8-2008 |
Job 38:1-7 seems to point to the angels pre-existing the physical creation of the earth, because it implies they were witnesses of God's creative act. Angels are spiritual beings. Gen. 1-2 deals with the creation of our physical world. The only spiritual beings the Bible says were created during that week were Adam and Eve (animals have no spirit). | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11397 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hec, I'm sure Jeremy will have other good insights, but I want to comment on your question, too. The creation story includes the sun, moon, and stars. Psalm 19 explains that the heavens tell the glory of God, and Romans 1:18-20 says that what can be known of God, His invisible attributes—His eternal power and divine nature—can be known from what has been made. The biblical text alone suggests that all creation was created together. It is all related to itself—even the galaxies are in orbits and relationships with each other as far as gravitational pull is concerned, etc. The universe is the sum of all that is in it. As for other universes...we aren't told and don't know, but there's no hint of them. Furthermore, science shows that earth is the only planet in a position to sustain life: its distance from the sun, the presence of water and atmosphere with breathable air, etc. (Watch The Privileged Planet. Moreover, Romans 8:19-25 explains that all creation has been subjected to decay by the One who subjected it. In other words, we were taught that decay is a result of sin, an evidence of Satan's evil victory, his "curse" on the beautiful earth. Wrong again! God Himself subjected creation to decay—and not just this planet but all creation! Decay is God's own decree upon creation. It is, apparently, His way to "contain" sin. Just as He kept Adam and Eve from the Tree of Life after they sinned, just so He kept all creation from unending existence after sin entered. Moreover, 2 Peter 10:11, Revelation 21:1, and Matthew 24:35 all refer to the heaven AND the earth melting and being destroyed with fervent heat. All creation—heaven and earth—will be destroyed, and there will be a NEW heaven and earth. There is no reason, apart from EGW, to think God has other creations that preceded or followed the creation that we see. All that we can see and infer will be destroyed, and it has ALL been subjected to decay by God Himself. Along with God's curse of the earth in Genesis 3, He subjected all creation to decay. Ellen's other worlds and other planets are eerily reminiscent of Joseph Smith's visions of other planets. Those men who make it to Mormon third heaven will each get a planet to populate. For more on this subject of planets, see Martin Carey's article in this Proclamation: http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2008/1/index.html Ellen's pre-creation scenarios are so much imagination—or dark inspiration...notice how much those pre-creation stories empower and elevate Lucifer and Satan. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11398 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting point, Bskillet, re: Job 38:7. Thank you. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3259 Registered: 10-2004 |
Also, to add to what Colleen said, Isaiah 45:18 seems to imply that the earth is the only planet that is inhabited:
Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3260 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bskillet, The Bible says that God formed the earth on Day 1. But that doesn't mean that the angels couldn't have also been created on Day 1. Jeremy | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 143 Registered: 9-2006 |
Jeremy--Yes! When we believe that time and matter are eternal, we are putting the creation over the Creator. However, I am not convinced that Genesis 1 forces us into a choice between Time beginning on that first "morning," and an SDA concept of eternal time where God is perpetually creatin--because He must. We both agree that their cosmology sets up a Great Controversy theology with its vast starry menageries of the Nearly Convinced. So we both have plenty of trouble with all that. Aside from those two choices, Consider: An earth that existed in some form before Day 1 is implied in Gen. 1:2, "The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." There was darkness, there was a formless void, and there was water with the Spirit hovering over it. Then God spoke. We are not told what that darkness involved, or about the "void" or the water. But the idea here from the words (tohu and bohu) seem to portray a place of dark, watery chaos where God imposes order. Surely all things were made by Him, so only He is eternal. However, because of the chaotic elements of 1:2, I'm not finding the absolute Beginning, something brought from nothing, in Genesis 1:1. What we have been given is a history of earth and man. Yen, you make good points that we are not told about the creation of angels. You also said, "A God with such astounding creativity may have been very busy creating other things during the immeasurable eternity of His power before He got around to creating the earth a few thousand years ago." Do you mean that God has an infinitely irresistable urge to create, so He wouldn't restrain His creative activities to a finite period? Since He is infinite, does He "need" a universe that is also infinite? Many have used this line of argument to diminish God's purpose in saving man, because man is an insignificant mote out of all those worlds of intelligent beings that God also loves and keeps making. His becoming a man and suffering for our "tiny speck of a world" is therefore beneath His character. Now, I'm pretty certain you don't believe that, but that is where "infinite universe" thinking can lead. We can revel in the thought that God doesn't "need" anything, but chose to show His glory by lavishing His grace on the weak and undeserving like us. Martin C | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 168 Registered: 6-2008 |
Here are few more nuggets I found to chew on: Psalm 148:1-6 1 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded, and they were created. 6 He hath also established them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass. It is significant that the earth and its waters existed in darkness before the creative acts of Day 1, when God put light on the earth and "divided the light from the darkness." Genesis 1:1,2 I also find it significant that Genesis 1:8 says, "And God called the firmament Heaven." The word "heaven" is used in the Bible in several ways. It can refer to where God dwells. (And yes, I know He is "outside" of time and space, which I take to mean He is not limited in any way, has always existed and always will, and He is everywhere at once!) "Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is." Deut. 10:14 "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit..." Isaiah 57:15 It is an oxymoron to say that He has existed forever and that He is eternal, (phrases that refer to time) and then to say that these statements contradict the fact that He is outside of time! Or to accept heaven (the "high and holy place," "heaven of heavens") as His dwelling and then to say this limits Him to a place! WE are the ones who are limited--in these cases by the inherent limitations of human language! Thus, to say that "Day 1" refers to the very first existence "ever" of what we are forced to call "time" for lack of a better way to explain sequential events, makes no sense. I do not believe that when the Bible says "heaven and earth shall pass away," it means that even the "heaven" to which Jesus ascended after the resurrection, God's "dwelling place," will also be destroyed by God's wrath! Why would this place need to be destroyed? It is uncorrupted! The things and places that need to be destroyed and "made new" are those we have contaminated. The "heaven" that will be destroyed and then made new in all likelihood refers to our horribly polluted atmosphere, whatever that term encompasses. Here is another interesting observation: The way Genesis 1:10 is worded, it can be interpreted to mean two different things. It says: "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also." Note that one interpretation can mean that the sun, the moon, and the stars were all created at the same time on the 4th Day. However, because of the way the verse is constructed, one can also logically infer that the clause "he made the stars also," may be parenthetical. In other words, that the sun and moon came into existence on the 4th day, and 'Oh, by the way, don't forget that God is also the Creator of the stars' while not necessarily implying that the stars had to have come into existence at the same time on Day 4. I do not presume to know which interpretation is correct; I may have to leave that one for when I can find out from God Himself! Reasoning further, it seems unlikely that man will ever physically reach any other stars; if he does, I can easily concede the point; until then, I have to leave it open and not infer what is not clear. Martin, I can't presume to "know" the mind of the Eternal, Unlimited, Almighty, Creator God! But I also choose not to limit His creative power by assuming that we are His only creations, or that He limited His creative powers to the 6 days of Creation Week on earth. The Bible is not definitive on this, so how can we assume it? And doesn't the possibility that other, perfect and sinless, created beings MAY exist make the fact of our salvation even more astounding and wonderful? He is Almighty God! If He had chosen to do so, He could have instantaneously zapped earth and all its contents, including man, out of existence on the occasion of the first sin. But He didn't. He chose to die for us! That is the most mind-boggling fact of all! Far from diminishing God, it shows His infinite, indescribable love and grace! The only "definite" conclusion I can come to is that we stupid humans can never presume that we KNOW Creator God. So very little has been revealed. And we have only to believe that little bit that has been revealed to receive salvation. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1136 Registered: 3-2009 |
Thanks Colleen for addressing my questions. You say:
You're right when you say that "for other universes...we aren't told and don't know." Therefore we cannot be dogmatic one way or another. As far as science showing that earth is the only planet capable of sustaining life, I would say that science is limited to our universe, our world. Science doesn't know any more that the Bible what is out there. So the only thing we can surmise from science is that in this observable world, earth is the only planet that at this time can sustain life. As far as the Bible referring to other worlds, there is no need to. The Bible is a history of God's dealings with this world, so an argument by silence won't proof anything. I can take either position because the Bible does not take either position. Although it would seem to me, that a creator would create besides this world. Hec | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 170 Registered: 6-2008 |
"The Privileged Planet" is an interesting DVD. But I object to its or anyone else's assertions about the whole universe! We are cannot know for sure that inhabited planets do not exist far beyond our own solar system without exploring the whole universe. Yes, within our own solar system we can safely assume that there are no "Martians" or "beautiful giants walking around on Jupiter," ala EGW. But we cannot be positive there are NO habitable planets ANYWHERE out there orbiting ANY of those billions of suns that we call stars until we have checked all of them--obviously an impossible task!! So what's the point of stating such a thing positively when it is impossible to know? We also do not know for sure that there are or are not other universes so far beyond our own that we would never be able to find them. When this sinful world and its horrible history come to an end and we are taken to live with God wherever that may be, we will have eternity to learn things we cannot possibly even imagine, much less know, here and now. For myself, it is occasionally fun to speculate, to try to wrap my gray matter around some awfully big thoughts, but I can't forget that I'm a pretty poor judge of what God may have done while I wasn't looking! | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 144 Registered: 9-2006 |
Hi Yen, I agree that we don't have to assume God limited all His creative activity to 6 days. That is because Genesis 1 strongly implies preexisting, chaotic matter. Perhaps you read what I said to Jeremy about that, and on this we seem to agree. My point for you was that God's infinite creative power does not demand that His creation is also infinite, or that "anything is possible." He shows His greatness not in the quantity of His creation, but in the quality of His relationship with it, especially with man. Whether or not His finite creation took 144 hours, or was more than 13.7 billion years, what is significant is God's faithful care for the humans that He has completely identified with. Here's something we can know about God: He has a very particular love for mankind that is unique in the universe. There may be other life forms, even other "beings," but they are definitely not human, and they are not saved by the Cross and resurrection (Although I agree with what Colleen said about our privileged planet, that such life is rare, at best, and there is good science behind this). Hebrews 2 is clear on man's special status, that all creation has been placed under him, from the beginning. The universe was made for man, not man for the universe. Our universe has become forever human in the man Jesus, when He was made like us in every way. This was always God's plan, not an afterthought due to Adam's sin. We live in a universe that was always intended to be human, and will be when everything is placed under His feet. This is not an "arrogant" position for saved humans to take, but a gratefully confident attitude for us adopted children. Whatever is out there is also suffering the pain of futility and death, just as we are (Romans 8:18-22). "The whole creation..." means everything made by God. That's pretty inclusive (If you choose to believe in multiverse theory, those were created by Him, and suffer the same futility). We must not ignore Romans 8! From Romans 8:19-23 we can conclude: 1. Everything God created is under the pain of corruption and death, and waits for the liberation of the sons of God. This eliminates EGW's claims of perfect beings on other planets, untouched by death or sin. Earth is not "quarantined," as if sin were some kind of contamination. That is a very SDA concept. Mrs. White taught that the watching worlds have beings who were made like Adam and offered a choice to follow God or fall. Their non-contamination is secured by God's demonstrations on the Cross, and in human law-keeping in the end. 2. The creation will only be set free from its bondage to corruption when we are glorified. Why is this important? Because our assurance and confidence before the Father is founded on the utter humanness of Jesus, who became like us to be our faithful High Priest. Jesus the Man is Lord of everything, and always has been. This radically different from Ellen's universe, where God reacts to Adam's sin by cobbling together a plan to make Jesus human and offer a tentative salvation for mankind, one race out of millions. But then, Ellen never understood the "Plan," or the high priestly role of Jesus. Martin C | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1137 Registered: 3-2009 |
Could it be that Romans is, as the whole Bible, talking about this creation? Would that necessarily limit creation to this universe, this creation? Hec | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 173 Registered: 6-2008 |
I might add, it is very possible that IF there are other created beings somewhere (and I'm not saying I think there are or there aren't), I see no reason to think they would know any more about us than we know about them. That whole imaginary, EGW "watching worlds" concept has to assume they have supernatural--even Godlike--powers! But ruling that part of it out doesn't necessarily eliminate all possibility of life somewhere besides earth, in my mind. All we NEED to know for salvation has been clearly and unequivocally revealed in the Bible. Ultimately, whether there are other inhabited places in the universe or not, none of it has any bearing on the fact of God's amazing grace and mercy to us sinners here on earth--dying to redeem us, forgiving our sinful rebellion, and offering us eternal life with Him! | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2453 Registered: 8-2004  |
 The 'watching worlds' idea likely came from an attempt to explain the great cloud of witnesses spoken of in Hebrews while still hanging on to the idea of soul-sleep. | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 175 Registered: 6-2008 |
Hec's suggestion re. "creation" in Romans 8: That's how I read it, that it refers to "creation" as we know it. The plan of salvation totally and uniquely applies to earthly conditions, events, sin, and God's remedy for it. Jesus came to earth, died on earth to save human sinners, and promised rewards to human believers. If I'm wrong about the possibility of life forms we know nothing about, I'll have to wait until later to be shown that! Until then, I try to "suspend" any adamant judgments! Helovesme2: You're probably right; that's a logical extrapolation. It still doesn't provide the rationale for her claimed "vision" showing the "Jupiter Beings" on an inhospitable, poisonous-gas-filled planet! (She was SO delusional about SO much!) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11405 Registered: 12-2003 |
My problem with rationalizing away Romans 8:22, "the whole creation," is that we have no biblical reason to do so. To explain this away by saying Paul is referring to the creation he could see is to use arguments much like we used in Adventism when we rationalized away texts like Mark 7:19 where Jesus "declared all foods clean". SDAs say that Mark 7:19 doesn't apply to pork, shellfish, etc, because those "aren't foods". But the context says something different--especially when put together with Acts 10 where Peter is told to kill and eat and to call nothing unclean that God has called clean. We have to understand the plain words of Scripture to mean exactly what they say. The Bible writers were not writing the "thoughts of God" according to their own understanding. They were writing God's own specific revelations and using the words He oversaw. When Paul says creation was subjected to futility, that the whole creation groans, waiting for the sons of God to be revealed (saved, glorified humans), we have to understand him to mean exactly what he says. I'm not trying to argue for or against other universes or created beings. I'm simply saying we cannot reason those things exist by re-interpreting the plain words of Scripture. We have to read Scripture as it stands without trying to explain it away. Our proper response to God's word is to bow before the Lord Jesus and ask Him to show us what is true and real and to teach us what He wants us to know. We place ourselves on a fairly slipper slope when we begin re-interpreting the plain meanings of the words of Scripture. Truth is in God's word. Our logic is not the seat of truth. Some words really are more ambiguous than others—the Hebrew word underlying the word translated "day" in the creation account, for instance. That is a word that can mean day or age...it's not a clearly cut-and-dried word on its own. We have to understand it in the larger context of its use throughout Scripture and throughout the book of Genesis. Romans 8, however, is a clear statement about creation. There is no linguistic "permission" to see Paul's statement as referring only to what we can personally observe. Colleen | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 179 Registered: 6-2008 |
The Hebrew word yom (day) may indeed have several meanings, just as "day" does in English ("back in my Grandfather's day..." for example, does not refer to a specific 24-hour-period, but to a more extended period of unspecified length). However the specific words, "And the evening and the morning were the (X) day," completely abolish the guesswork that "day" in Genesis 1 could mean anything but a 24-hour period of darkness and light! There goes the rationalization about eons and eons for each "day"! In addition to that, consider these points: Plants were created before the sun: Photosynthesis requires light, so how could plants have existed and reproduced for "eons" without sunlight? Plants were also created before insects; how could they have been pollinated for eons before insects were present? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2457 Registered: 8-2004 |
Plants were created before the sun, but light was called into existence on the very first day. The plants were not without light even before the fourth day when the sun, moon, and stars were created. | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 145 Registered: 9-2006 |
At last I've found evidence for multiple universes, it's right here on this forum thread. Perhaps someone read my last post about Romans 8 and Hebrews 2, but they haven't posted from their universe! Colleen made good points about trusting scripture's words in Romans 8, "the whole creation," with no one in this realm addressing what she said. Can we agree on the following? Jesus is Lord of all creation, and brought it all into being by His word (Jn.1:1-3). Whatever "other" realms or realities you wish to speculate about, if there are such places, Jesus created them. If there are any universes not included in Paul's expression, "the whole creation," then they have another creator, and another god. Multiverse theory therefore does not change the real questions. The whole creation is all inclusive, and Paul meant what he said. It isn't just Paul, we also know from Hebrews 2 and from Psalms 8, how everything was originally put under mankind to rule. Is this a faulty assumption? If so, show the evidence. All creation is under the "futility" of death, awaiting the adoption of the sons of God (Rom. 5 and 8). I am not arguing against other life forms, that is not the question. However, any other life forms out there are not protected from the consequences of the curses. Because other beings are not human, they are not saved by the Cross, or given eternal life from the resurrection. Jesus only died for men and women. If this is wrong, please present the Biblical evidence. There is only one creation, it was made for man, and its Lord is a man named Jesus. Why multiverse theory and belief in "unfallen beings" out there remains so popular among Christians baffles me. This comes from popular culture and wishful thinking, not the Bible. Martin C | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11412 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well explained, Martin! Colleen |
