| Author |
Message |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2205
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 5:08 pm: |     |
Pat,
Now I think I see a sparkle of amusement in those eyes of yours.
If you are ever in the Puget Sound area we just have to meet.
PS
And I agree. Moments when I discover myself wrong about something is when I've had times of greatest personal growth. So, keep your insights coming our way.
Your brother in Christ,
Fearless Phil |
Patallen
Registered user
Username: Patallen
Post Number: 13
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 5:21 pm: | |
Phil, I'd love to meet you. If you are ever in or near Orlando or Sanford, FL, give me a shout out ahead of time.
Pat |
Philharris
Registered user
Username: Philharris
Post Number: 2207
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 5:32 pm: | |
Pat,
Right now it looks like your chances are greater for meeting those already in your state. Well, I do have a sister in Mississippi I need to visit. What's a few more miles to the east. And, Jan my wonderful 'honey bun' has a brother somewhere in your sun blessed state. So, who knows, it could happen.
PS
Three thousand miles is a long way to walk so expect me to arrive by train since Jan doesn't like flying and I tend to sleep when driving.
Fearless Phil |
Patallen
Registered user
Username: Patallen
Post Number: 14
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 5:44 pm: | |
Phil, you make me laugh. You are so funny! 
Pat |
Indy4now
Registered user
Username: Indy4now
Post Number: 859
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 7:42 pm: | |
Hi Hec,
I think that many Christian churches can be as legalistic as an SDA church. You may have to attend this church more to be able to assess where they stand. Maybe you should sign up for that class (even though the title made me nauseaus). It might be interesting to see what they are discussing and the overall feel of others in the class. This might be the quickest way of learning what this church believes. I think that it's easy to say, "we believe that we're saved by grace" ... but do they actually live that out. That takes time and is not always easy to discern with only 1 or 2 visits.
Pray about this and ask God for His discernment as you attend this church. Choosing a church family is difficult. We attended some churches for 8 months before we decided it wasn't for our family. I'm praying for you also.
vivian
p.s. welcome Pat! I've been around for a little while... haven't posted much but I do come back to read regularly. I've already copied your letter from the Rabbi and saved it onto my computer. Hope to hear much from you! |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2057
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 7:43 pm: | |
Pat,
The people in this world were not without moral directives and guidance before the Law was given on Mount Sinai. For example, the Noahic Covenant prohibited the eating of animal blood and murder (Gen. 9:4,6) before the Mosaic Covenant was given. These are still in effect, under the New Covenant--including the avoidance of sexual immorality (Acts 15:28,29) as affirmed by the Jerusalem Council. Moral laws are interwoven in the various covenants throughout redemptive history. Indeed, the ethics of the OT law are the same as the ethics of the NT gospel.
Moreover, a sacrificial system was obviously fully in place when Cain and Abel lived (Abel bringing the firstborn of his flock and their fat portions for sacrifice). This precise regulation was not created by Abel, but rather by God Himself as we find in Genesis 4:4,5. Thus, even some ceremonial laws existed before Sinai. As we would expect, the commandment to be fruitful and multiple under the Adamic and Noahic covenants had the least compliance violations. Believers before and after the Cross are saved by grace alone (Gen. 6:8; Romans 9:15,16,18). Charles Spurgeon rightly stated that "The law is for the self-righteous, to humble their pride; the gospel is for the lost, to remove their despair."
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11473
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2010 - 11:10 pm: | |
Hec, the Restoration movement is the movement from which the Church of Christ and the ChristiN Church denomination derived. It also includes, farther back the Christian Connexion, the movement from which James White and Joseph Bates were from. At that time it was non-trinitarian.
There are others here who can speak more specifically about the Restoration movement, but it tends to take its shape from the idea of restoring the church from its state of having "lost" certain essentials back into embracing newly-resurrected beliefs or practices.
Keep asking God to clarify to you where He wants you to worship, Hec. He will.
Colleen |
Patallen
Registered user
Username: Patallen
Post Number: 16
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2010 - 8:48 am: | |
Dennis,
I totally agree with your post.
Pat |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2058
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2010 - 9:58 am: | |
Vatican Newsflash!
National Public Radio (NPR) reports that a group Italian women claiming to have had relationships with priests wrote an open letter to Pope Benedict XVI. This, of course, reintroduces the debate of celibacy, which was a hot topic at Vatican II over 40 years ago, but was kept at bay by Pope Paul VI. It is my understanding that the sexual desires and needs of a new priest are immediately and miraculously extinguished at his ordination. A modern sign gift? What a terrific miracle! 
Dennis Fischer |
Patallen
Registered user
Username: Patallen
Post Number: 17
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2010 - 1:22 pm: | |
Dennis, what is the point of them being celibate in the first place? I know they are supposedly 'married to Jesus' but come on.... God gifted them with sexual desires so who are they to try to deny they exist and to take such vows? It's broke so they really need to fix it by letting the priests and nuns get married. Until then, I believe they will continue to ruin lives. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 3290
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2010 - 2:31 pm: | |
Pat, welcome to the forum! Thanks for sharing that very insightful reply from the rabbi.
Jeremy |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 2059
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2010 - 3:32 pm: | |
Excellent analysis of celibacy in the RCC, Pat! Wisely, many Catholics are now leaving their church as a result of their worldwide sexual scandals. Still others have become "retired" Catholics.
Dennis Fischer |
Darrell
Registered user
Username: Darrell
Post Number: 123
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 - 10:47 pm: | |
This has been a great thread! I have come into it late, and I would like to make a comment related to the its roots: the laws of the covenant with Noah. I particularly found the Rabbi's comments about these laws applying to the gentiles interesting, because it seems the apostles had these laws in mind when they addressed the problem of the Judaizers in Acts 15. Here is the conclusion spoken by James:
19* “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
20* Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
21* For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
These requirements are taken from Noah's 7 laws, and the reason given for requiring them is that Moses is read in the synagogues every Sabbath. In other words, the Jews would be familiar with the application of Noah's laws to gentiles, so the gentile Christians should observe these in order to not be an offense to the Jewish people.
So we as Christians have a New Testament source for respecting these laws. |
Patallen
Registered user
Username: Patallen
Post Number: 24
Registered: 7-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 11:28 am: | |
Hi Darrell,
Great insight. Great point!
Pat |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 11487
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 1:07 pm: | |
I would just add that the principle for Gentile Christians observing the Noahic laws against eating blood and strangled animals and animals offered to idols at the time of Acts 15 was not a "moral requirement". At that time, the entire purpose was so the new Jewish and new gentile Christians, who were neither old covenant Jews nor pagans anymore, could fellowship together as mutual members of the brand-new organism: Christ's body.
The purpose behind the Acts 15 regulations was entirely in keeping with Romans 14—not offending a brother's weak conscience.
Today, with the body of Christ being largely gentile, there is not the same necessity for observing these laws. The body of Christ anywhere in the world can eat together, because Jesus declared all foods clean (Mark 7), and because God told Peter not to call "unclean" what He has called "clean" (Acts 10). In fact, the Acts 15 restrictions were not for the sake of "forbidden" and "allowed"—they were for the purpose of mutual respect and fellowship as well as for the purpose of keeping the new gentile converts from being drawn back into their pagan habits by continuing to eat the food that was offered to their former idols.
Acts 15 isn't a "command" for Christians re: food. It is a fellowship issue and a spiritual protection so the early church wouldn't fracture, and so the gentiles would not be subliminally drawn back into old practices that would trigger old associations of worship and experience. In 1 Cor 8 Paul addresses this issue again. He says that idols are nothing to him, but those who can eat food offered to idols without problems of conscience should nonetheless refrain from it when they were with people who would feel they were eating pagan god sacrifices.
Colleen |
