| Author | Message | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1552 Registered: 11-2007  |
I am being interviewed by an ex-vegan blogger who wants to know more about the SDA health message, and how the organization promotes it. Does anyone know any evidence showing the bias (i.e.half-truths)in SDA vegetarian propaganda? | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 105 Registered: 6-2008 |
I know of absolutely NO biblical support for vegetarianism, much less veganism. Noah was told, in Genesis 9:3, "Every living thing that moveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But the flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." Later, after the Israelites left Egyptian captivity, they were given more restrictive rules concerning which animals were clean (kosher) and which were forbidden to be eaten or even touched. The Israelites were COMMANDED to eat the Passover lamb. Jesus Himself celebrated Passover shortly before the crucifixion; it would certainly have been noted as significant had He refused to partake of the lamb, which was the most important part of the menu! Even after the resurrection, He ate "a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb" with the disciples! (Luke 24:36-43.; John 21:12-14). Vegetarianism is not only NOT a biblical practice, but even toay, it is not always a healthy alternative. Some people are able to get sufficient protein from grains and legumes, and it's not too difficult if milk and eggs are also permitted; many find this very difficult, while others cannot do it. EGW says no one can stand "perfect" before God or even have their prayers reach God while still indulging in meat, or even eggs and milk! (Counsels on Diet and Foods, several places. I no longer have this book or the Index so I can't give specific references--can someone else supply these?) I was a lacto-ovo vegetarian most of my life. We always depended on highly processed, commercially manufactured meat substitutes for our protein. I don't think I was harmed by this diet, but I also don't believe it was necessary, healthier, or more "spiritual" than ordinary diets with animal proteins included. I think the bottom line here is the wrongness of imposing man-made, unnecessary rules where God--through the Bible--is silent! | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1555 Registered: 11-2007 |
Agree with that, but don't agree that the sda diet is harmless. The meat substitutes are worse for you than a chicken fried steak and a Budweiser.  There are so many supposed "studies" proving out they are right about vegetarian being more healthy. this blogger suspects these studies are slanted to prove the validity of a certain prophet. I would tend to agree, just don't have any evidence. This person is not a former sda... just a former vegan. | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 371 Registered: 1-2007  |
I was the worst SDA, I ate meat and pork, and shrimp, and drank coffee and tea the whole 2-3 years I was a member. I tried cutting out the pork for a while, but that didn't last, I'm not one to turn down food just because it had bacon. Yeah, I'm evil...what can I say? LOL Paul | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11310 Registered: 12-2003  |
Sondra, Richard used to chat at LLU quite frequently with one of the researchers for the Adventist Health Study conducted through the School of Public Health. While I don't believe any of this is published, he told Richard several things. 1. In a sense, the Adventist Health Study is "sponsored research". While it's not being done to literally sell a product, it is being done to prove the SDA teaching of vegetarianism and even veganism. The questionnaires go to Adventists only, and there's also no real way to be sure that they're being truthful in their answers. They may be, but they may be skewed at times. This, however, is not different from any other written survey. 2. The research results are compared to the population at large. This particular researcher said that if the Adventist study results were compared to the results of the general public screened for non-smoking, non-heavy drinking, and low amounts of red meat, the results would be comparable. As it is, the study findings are actually skewed in a sense, because they do not adjust for smoking and drinking in the control group. In my opinion, the Adventist Health Study is mostly PR. I've read over the years that Mormons, who do eat all kinds of meat but forbid drinking and smoking, have the same longevity advantage Adventists have. In other words, the "Adventist advantage" may have little to do with vegetarianism and much more to do with non-smoking and non (or little) drinking. This was the opinion of the researcher Richard knows. But keep in mind that I doubt you could find this observation published—at least not by him! Colleen | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 373 Registered: 1-2007 |
You know this is something I noticed with many Adventists in my area, my wife and I were both talking about it recently. But most of the Adventists I knew or met here in Central Florida alls seemed unhealthy. They seemed kind of pale, sluggish, had alot of health issues. And then there were the others that gave up meat and just substituted by over eating and were over weight, surely not healthier beccause they gave up meat. I'm not saying all veggies are that way, it was just my observation here in the churches I attended and the meetings. I never did agree with the health message. My grandmother is 98 years old and strong as an ox, and she grew up eating pork and meat, she loves tea. And she will beat me down in a heartbeat. She had a massive heart attack when I was about 20 and she would not let the medics put her on a strecher, she walked down a flight of steps and climed into the ambulance herself. She had a triple bypass and had another heart attack a few years later, and than a stroke, and this was all about 10 years ago and more. She is still outside shoveling snow, mowing the lawn, and gardening. Paul | ||
| Yenc Registered user Username: Yenc Post Number: 108 Registered: 6-2008 |
I'm sure examples abound in both groups--vegetarians and non-vegetarians--of people who are robust and vigorous, and others who are listless and unhealthy. A lot depends on other factors as well: how much exercise people get; how much time they spend outdoors; the stresses they cope with; heredity; pessimism vs. optimism; amount of water they drink; disease processes; medicines and supplements they take; etc. SDAs like to focus on one area to "prove" a point--specifically, supporting EGW--when good research demands controlling for all variables--a very complicated and stringent scientific principle. Thus the results may end up skewed in the direction the researcher prefers, rather than being totally blind and unbiased. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 509 Registered: 1-2006  |
8thday I recall that the data that had been gathered as of the late 70s showed that adventist men aged 55-65 had 48 percent of the expected death rate annually if they refrained from smoking, and about 16 percent of the expected death rate if they also refrained from eating meat. I think it was a paired study and the sample sizes were quite large, so that's in its favor. I know, this data raises more questions than it answers . . . Some researchers have suggested that genetic factors might outweigh lifestyle choices, and if they are right, would that not be an almost fatal flaw in the study? Obviously, unrelated correlations can also be drawn by researchers anxious to prove a point. Case in point: people who purchase charitable gift annuities also live measurably longer than the general population. Why? Finally, is it worth it? Also, there have been studies that look at alcohol consumption and longevity, and the results are not just straight line correlations. Up to a point, alcohol consumption appears to be positively correlated to longevity, especially if you're a rat. Bob | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1556 Registered: 11-2007 |
Thanks Colleen, this was the conclusion I came to as well, that the main cause for difference (if there is one) is the alcohol/tobacco issue. Found a great article http://www.nonsda.org/study11.shtml It outlines the Mormon comparison as well as the a study done in 1994 showing that Califonia SDAs actually have a higher rate of cancer for several types. It's lower for breast and lung, but higher for a whole long list of other types. After I began studying it out a few years ago I felt keenly that I'd been given only partial information on almost all health issues as an SDA. I was out of the church a long time before I questioned the vegetarianism. Paul - thanks for sharing about your grandmother! My family likes to use my almost 98 year old vegan grandmother (who is STILL with us after cancer treatments the last few months for a tumor in her neck)as the chief proof that this diet is the best. The cancer they have commented is inevitable with age. I wonder how they would explain your grandmother! I now see there is no silver bullet to prevent or cure many life-threatening diseases. Where before I relied on my knowledge of diet to keep me safe.. I now trust my mind/soul/body to Christ - come what may. I am moved by a testimony here of one who is going through the valley of severe illness but drawn closer to Christ than ever through the ordeal. How can this be possible if poor health clouds the mind and blocks our communication and relationship with God? Nonsense!!!! God is bigger than our frail bodies and His plans are worked in and through our weakness. Today while looking things up.. I ran across the NEWSTART acronym again - the last T meaning "Trust in God" That seems so oxymoronic to me now. Why trust in God when you are upholding your own life and health in your own strength? Trust Him for what? The ability to do the impossible, because if you don't, you'll be lost? One website even used the verse about being an "enemy to the cross of Christ" and "their gods are their belly" to imply that not taking on this SDA lifestyle would mean this verse applies to you. Insanity! Be free people... be free. Jesus didn't come to give you a diet. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1557 Registered: 11-2007 |
Bob, I would agree on the moderate consumption of alcohol being beneficial! A general population statistic would include those who abuse it, which are many. Interesting point though - I don't trust statistics much.. from any source. ha. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 681 Registered: 10-2006 |
The pressure was on a few years ago for every member to fill out the enormously long health surveys for the study coming up. I remember people saying things like: 1. I'm overweight. I don't want to jar the results so I won't fill it out. 2. I eat meat - only clean meats, but don't want my cholesterol results skewing the basically good and right Adventist lifestyle. I don't think at least around my local church, many of the sick people participated. By the way, several people died during my 6 years in the church. NONE of them were over 68! The was a suicide, heart attack, sleep apnea death, a few cancer deaths. I almost brought up the local statistics when they were telling about how health and old Adventists live to be. I'm glad I didn't because it would have been tacky - to say the least. I did think about those statistics a lot! Patty | ||
| Sharon3 Registered user Username: Sharon3 Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2010 |
I was in the LLU study for many years. Then when I left the church and my questionaire about my present eating habits including fish and chicken and occasionally wine kicked me off the study. I haven't received a questionaire since. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11318 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hmmm--very interesting, Patty and Sharon! Colleen | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 663 Registered: 11-2007 |
I don't know. Sorry, but just for giggles, you could use the quote where egw claims eating pork causes leprosy. Surfy | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1562 Registered: 11-2007 |
I never saw that quote Surfy! Wow... what a shock to learn that one. ha. The interview is done... feel free to leave your own comments and experiences there. I am glad he also included the links I sent him for reference. http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/698054451/interview-with-an-ex-adventist-sondra | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 515 Registered: 5-2004 |
This article is pretty long...but very interesting as it deals with the typical arguments of vegetarians/vegans (those who don't chose it as a personal choice but rather as an "agenda") and also with some of the bad research associated w/ the China study...which SDA's love to quote. http://beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 516 Registered: 5-2004 |
Sondra, I saw your interview...great info! Also, I was dealing a bit with this topic lately as I teach nutrition in my childbirth classes and currently have an SDA vegan client. If you pull up the wikipedia entry for vegetarianism, under the nutrition section there's a paragraph about longevity. It presents two studies (one done in US and 1 in Britain) that is a comparative study of multiple studies and the conclussions are that when the factors for smoking/non, etc are weighted in, vegetarians have no longer life expectancy than those non-vegetarians who eat consciously. Vegans having a somewhat lower life expectancy. But, it's so hard to even dialogue with a "religious vegan" because they're so sure that it's their "link" to spirituality...or whatever. You know...Ellen teaches it (even though they'll wave their hand at all the other ludicrus stuff Ellen teaches). sigh. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1568 Registered: 11-2007 |
Yes, that's why I laughed when he asked me, what would SDAs do if science proved vegetarianism was not what they claim. You just can't prove it to them. I also brought up (which he didn't include) is that even when she has been proven to be a chronic plagiarist to the point the church has to spin it and not deny it - they still believe. Only God can open blind eyes. |
