| Author | Message | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1560 Registered: 11-2007  |
Reading over things the past couple days and doing the interview on the relationship of Adventism to vegetarian/vegan evangelism, just rekindled some things and the further i get from Adventism, the stronger the contrast becomes between that, and truth. As an sda I was taught it was my spiritual responsibility to follow the 8 laws of health. I was told my communion with God would be hindered if I hate the wrong food, didn't exercise, or get enough sleep. I was living in fear that if I did not follow diet and lifestyle guidelines given by God (so I thought) I was not going to be protected from sickness and disease. God would not be able to speak to me or mold my character effectively. Thankfully I never did believe it could cost me my salvation, but some do. Let's contrast this spiritual obligation to the entire New Testament example of being a living sacrifice. I realized yesterday that if the Apostles had placed their own health at this level of priority, God would not have been able to use them like He did. They lived though great sacrifice and suffering. Obedience to Christ and spreading the Good News of the Kingdom were the first priority, not their health. And obviously, the Holy Spirit was not hindered by anyone's diet. I am not saying our bodies should not be cared for at all - there is balance, and common sense. But to be consumed with diet and health is to have your priorities way out of line with anything shown in scripture. It does however align closely with the Eastern religions and New Age ways of thought that believe you can elevate your spiritual plane through physical disciplines, and both of these also advocate vegetarian diets. I have drawn my conclusion on the inspiration of this. (not knocking it as a preference, only as a spiritual discipline). | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11316 Registered: 12-2003  |
Sondra, I have landed at exactly the same conclusions you state. Totally. God could not have used the apostles as He did for His kingdom if they had made their health and safety their priority. They had to learn to trust God for their health and safety. That is where the rubber meets the road, really. We have to trust God to keep us and guide us and empower us. He's greater than all our lifestyle obsessions...whether those obsessions are self-indulgent or self-denying. We have to surrender them for His sake and trust Him. I'm totally there with you re: the similarity of the vegetarian/vegan emphasis with New Age and Eastern religions. Colleen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 839 Registered: 2-2008  |
... well, diet is definitely not the right arm of the gospel is it! Just another way they take away from the gospel of Christ.  | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6330 Registered: 9-2006  |
I would just guess, and it is a guess, but what some of the apostles were forced to eat before they died would puke a monkey. I've had to drink water that would make you puke just to look at it, and had to eat almost rotten food after I cleared the ants away. I'll just guess the most of the time they weren't out there picking vegies out of no garden, especially in those prisons. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6331 Registered: 9-2006 |
I think they just dream up stuff to make their own life and everybody elses miserable. I guess if they insist on being miserable, its ok by me. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6332 Registered: 9-2006 |
Diet ain't even the right arm of losing weight!  | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 84 Registered: 5-2009 |
8th day and Colleen, I've been thinking about this post a lot the last few days. I'm thinking about it because I'm a hippie at heart and some of the lifestyle decisions that I've adopted (as an adult) look like a conservative adventist's. For example, I don't wear nail polish because it's a hormone disruptor (and I've experienced it affecting me negatively). I recently found one that is *safe* but it's $18/bottle...it's just not that deep to me. But that's not my point.. my point is, I am all about natural--natural hair, natural remedies, natural childbirth, etc. etc. I am unconventional in that way. I use conventional medicine (pharmaceuticals) at last resort and truly and firmly believe that God gave us an incredibly intricate and amazing body that works best if you treat it right. (Of course, everyone has his/her own take on what "right" looks like.) so, I'm vegetarian too... 'cause I was raised that way and have no impulse for meat. My husband keeps telling me that it's time to embrace the new covenant. ha ha! So, I'll probably taste it one of these days, but I can guarantee you that it's going to be grass-fed, free-range, no hormone, organic piece of meat. is that wrong? is that adventist? is that new age? is this Scientology? What is "right thinking" about health? What is the Biblical worldview regarding the body? A few years ago, I had a medical emergency that required medical intervention. Because of my view on modern medicine and my distrust of the medical establishment, my family thought I would forgo the prescribed treatment and let nature take its course. That certainly was my first impulse, but I took it to God. And though I believe that as a lifestyle, natural is best, I didn't want my philosophies to be my god. One of the verses that carried me through this whole ordeal was Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart; do not depend on your own understanding. Seek his will in all you do, and he will show you which path to take." It was a humbling experience every time I had to take that little pill. It taught me to trust in the Lord more than my own views of the best way to take care of my body. | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1563 Registered: 11-2007 |
Cloudwatcher, I am very close to your way of thinking - and would totally PREFER to have everything grass fed off the farm. My dad is going to bring us some beef this fall from his place, and I'm looking forward to it. But there comes a point when I have to choose my priorities financially. I agree it's better to buy everything chemical free, but in the long run, does it provide any guarantee I won't still get sick? (no... seen the contrary to be true) and are there more important things right now I need to spend my money on? (right now... yes..because we don't have very much.) We have gotten involved with a homeless ministry and helping the poor in the community. I also have a heart for native missionaries in India and persecuted Christians around the world. My personal decision is I would rather put my health in God's hands (obviously I don't tempt fate and live at McDonalds) and use my resources more for eternal things than for my temporary body to live just a few years longer. God will decide when my time is up and He is bigger than the contaminants I cannot escape no matter what I do... (unless I go live off the land and don't ever leave it. ha) I also seek natural paths whenever possible (3 kids born at home) but it's just my beliefs have changed about what's healthy, and my priorities have changed. It's a personal journey you'll figure out. And your last sentence there is my conclusion too. The MAIN thing for me is to not fear anymore that my relationship with God might be affected one way or the other... that's a great peace. Sondra | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2009 |
Cloudwatcher, I never wanted to be one of those 1970s hippie earth mother types. But in the last 10 years have been reading a lot on nutrition & health. It's a long story but I finally wound up with a cookbook titled 'Nourishing Traditions' by Sally Fallon. That leads to the Weston A Price Foundation - google their website, also check out realmilkcom. Basically it is eating & handling foods the way traditional peoples have for thousands of years. In the past year I have begun to change my ways to these ways. Biblically I think it fits too. What we have been told in the name of health by the world as well as religion is a lot of lies & not at all healthy. Especially I don't believe vegan is at all healthy. At least eating REAL foods, dairy, pastured meats & eggs, real milk provides the nutrients we need. What we were taught in the 'health message' is dangerous & unbiblical in MHO. With this caveat: milk & dairy animals & products were not healthy in the 1800s (look up 'swill dairies'), just as today's factory-farmed animals fed unnatural feed, antibiotics, & hormones certainly produce food unfit for human health & consumption to say nothing of cruelty to animals. Fat is not the enemy & cholesterol is not the enemy. A good book to read is 'Good Calorie, Bad Calories' by Gary Taubes. You can google his name with the word video to hear a 1 hour lecture he gave at Dartmouth which gives a good overview of his book. It's not an easy book to read but if you want the references & documentation & research the book has about 100 pages of them. Bone broths are nourishing & not expensive. Pastured free range eggs are afforadable if you can get them & very nutritious. Simply eating butter liberally can go a long way to better health. Hard to believe I know - but true. Another good book to read is written by endocrinologist Diana Schwarzbein 'The Schwarzbein Principle'. These things are almost as hard to believe & accept as the truth about SDAism because we have been brainwashed with lies for so long in the name of health. I am enjoying eating really tasty good food with NO guilt! Eating the 'unclean' foods is a little more of a stretch for me - but I had a ham & salami pannini on Thurs. It was good too! J9 | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 86 Registered: 5-2009 |
8thday, i love that you had 3 home births! Awesome. And your approach is refreshing. It reminds me of the perspective Francis Chan preaches from regarding saving for retirement. Self preservation can certainly be our god. J9, I'm looking into the info you suggested. It's definitely a stretch for me, but I'll read up on it for sure. Thanks for giving me much to consider and research! | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6342 Registered: 9-2006 |
I think I am going to Sizzlers and have fried okra and gobs of deep fried chicken wings tomorrow, Yall are making me hungry just thinking about food. I hardly ever think about what I'm going to eat at all until i'm faced with the fact that I haven't eaten, then I eat whatever I can get my hands on. I kind of like this way of thinking: Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. No matter what you eat or drink, its not the kingdom of God. It ain't noble to be a plain Jane without make-up, it ain't noble to use make-up. Its just that the girls who use make-up look a heck of a lot better than the gal that don't. Ha! River | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1082 Registered: 3-2009 |
I have a question for all. Girls are definitely prettier than boys. Or for us, Women are definitely prettier than men. Why are not the men the ones wearing make up? Hec | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2448 Registered: 8-2004  |
Some things can't be helped! ;) | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 793 Registered: 12-2007 |
Cloudwatcher, I believe the let no one judge you in regard to what you eat or drink, holy days, etc goes BOTH ways. We are not to judge anyone either way,,, that is the point... it is NOT a matter of what you eat or what you dont eat.. eat what you like and feel comfortable eating and leave the rest alone. If you prefer being vegetarian for health and / or moral beliefs then that is what is right for YOU. :-)But it may not be right for someone else (let each be persuaded in their own mind) I still do not eat shrimp, lobster, etc. have tasted it, I dont like it so I dont eat it. I have tried pork, some kinds I have liked ok,, some I have not same as any other meats. I dont think it is "wrong" to eat it,, neither do I think it is "right" to eat it.. It is just a preference issue not a salvation issue. :-) I know some people eat rabbits and frog legs and calf brains, pigs feet, etc... while those things might be ok if I didnt know what it was I was eating.... just the thought of eating those things makes me feel nauseous..... but if someone likes those things (even possum) LOL then I have no right to tell that person they should not be eating it. Just dont try and convince me that I should eat it. LOL I have tried a little wine a few times, dont like it, so I dont drink it. Give me a glass of cold Welches grape juice anyday though. :-) Just dont let it spoil and then give it to me :-/ I have a sister who has a cople glasses of wine each night after dinner before she goes to bed and I certainly do not think any less of her because of it. I would certainly worry if she drank to excess and got rip roaring falling down drunk... but I see nothing wrong with drinking in moderation when you are in your own home and not out driving endangerting the lives of yourself or someone else. For those who eat meat, certainly hormone free grass raised beef is the best, but not everyone, especially those with large families, can afford it. When we lived on acreage we raised our own beefand that was great.. we raised our own chickens also but I couldnt kill them. we had them mostly for the eggs... once in a while hubby would kill one and clean it and then I would cook it,, if it came in the house looking like one from the store and I didnt see it get killed or plucked and cleaned it was ok. the beef we raised to eat we kept at hubby's parents property a few miles from us,,, cause if it was on our own place and it got a name,, it became a pet... you dont eat your pets. LOL Our sons grew up hunting wild boar, but we didnt eat it... but we would call a neighbor that lived up the road that did eat pork and he was always glad to get it. We did not believe in killing anything that could not be used by someone,,, well except snakes... I had no problem with shooting snakes. I wouldnt get close enough to them to use a shovel on them... Anyway, I am not going to judge anyone by what they do or do not eat or which day thay choose to go to church. I see nothing "wrong" with going to church on Saturday, or Tuesday, or Thursday or any other day... ANY time we come together to worship God is a GOOD day to do it. What I DO feel is wrong is for anyone to try and make what day you worship on a test of your salvation. My problem with the SDA church is not that they go to church on Saturday, but that they teach that anyone who does NOT worship on that day has (or will recieve) the mark of the beast. That is wrong ! It's not the day I object to, but the overall DOCTRINE that comes down from Ellen White and her cohorts. The "Sunday church" I occasionally go to I much appreciate, not because they meet on Sunday (they also meet Sunday evenings, Wednesday evenings and Thursday evenings) but because they study and teach from the Bible ONLY. Not taking a text here or there but studying through the Bible one book and one chapter and verse at a time to keep it in context. As the Pastor there often says "Speak where the Bible speaks, and be silent where the Bible is silent". Francie | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 794 Registered: 12-2007 |
Didnt mean to get carried away there and go so long.... sorry :-/ | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6344 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well, hey Skeeter, I enjoyed reading what you said. And what you said along toward the end there goes along with my post I have been sitting here typing out on my word processor. To quote you:It's not the day I object to, but the overall DOCTRINE that comes down from Ellen White and her cohorts. That is exactly what seems to be on my heart this morning. River | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2167 Registered: 5-2007  |
Francie,  Around here Hooch takes care of the snakes. As for calf brains, they are not food and I will not ever eat them…again. Rocky mountain oysters are not too bad if done up properly but they are a bit tangy. I prefer them fresh, flattened and breaded with a good egg batter. Oh, menudo soup isn’t any better than calf brains. If you raise rabbits and eat them, don’t allow your children to give them names. The meal becomes somewhat unpleasant when a daughter want to know if she is eating Fred? There is one advantage to rabbit over eating chicken. They have four drum sticks and no wings. I have lots of hormone free grass, but so are the weeds. The wild hares seem to like it just fine so you may be onto something there. Does that mean I should make my bread from seeds and leave out the grain such as wheat flour? I just had ‘Crab Eggs Benedict’ and home fries for breakfast followed up with a peach latte. The crab is even better than the ham.  Fearless Phil | ||
| Skeeter Registered user Username: Skeeter Post Number: 797 Registered: 12-2007 |
Phil, Wheat "flour" is made from the grain (dried seeds) of the wheat plant. I used to buy (MIL still does) bulk hard winter red wheat from Montana to grind and bake my own bread. Now for the most part I buy the flourless wheat bread from Trader Joes made from sprouted wheat. I buy it because hubby is diabetic and the starches in flour raise his blood sugar. It is good bread and contains no sugar and being "flourless" is low glycemic. The other sprouted blends of breads we dont care for,, just the sprouted wheat. I still make homemade bread (rolls) on special occasions just not as an everyday thing. We dont live in the country anymore so dont raise any livestock..and I agree.. do NOT give names to anything you plan to eat. We do have a few fruit trees. 2 lemon, 4 fuji apple,2 plum, 1 loquat, 1 pineapple quava, 1 cheremoya, and a couple grape vines. We also grow tomatoes, lettuce,and spinach in container planters. Peach latte sounds good. For breakfast I had cantaloupe, banana and yogurt. When I eat pork at all it is usually bacon in a restaurant,, if it is served on the plate I will eat it.. but at home I really prefer the Louis Rich brand turkey bacon. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 2170 Registered: 5-2007 |
Francie, Grain > seed =  and not grass. You got me on that one. Maybe I really should put some grass in the bread. I grind my own flour but how do you turn grass into flour? Just came in from attempting to mow the grass and not the seeds. My riding mower broke and then it started to rain. At first I thought maybe God didn't want me working today and then remembered this is Sunday not  If'n I don't hurry up the grass will soon be going to seed. Fearless Phil | ||
| Cloudwatcher Registered user Username: Cloudwatcher Post Number: 89 Registered: 5-2009 |
Francie, while I agree that it works both ways about judging... when you grow up brainwashed with regards to certain foods and certain days, you don't have the luxury of looking at these things as simply lifestyle preferences. As has been said on this forum 1000 times, Adventism has a spiritual hold on people. My husband is trying to encourage me to explore whether or not Adventism still has a foothold in my life with regards to my diet. It's certainly not a judgment...(on me or anyone else who chooses to remain vegetarian). | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2009 |
Cloudwatcher, " when you grow up brainwashed with regards to certain foods and certain days, you don't have the luxury of looking at these things as simply lifestyle preferences." You said it! I dropped my membership 20 years ago but it was the lifestyle issues then. I still called myself a SDA. Just in the past year am I really questioning doctrines. I still fall into the trap of speaking as if I am still one. The identity runs very deep. For me even more so because I grew up in the culture of Takoma Park, world headquarters. Every other home was SDA. The idea of the spiritual hold is provocative & I believe true. Letting go of this identity ("I/We are special, have the truth, etc, etc) is taking conscious effort. I'm having difficulty believing & allowing myself to be really truly totally FREE. The brainwashing extends to 'can I really take the Bible AS IT READS?' I am so trained to have elaborate explanations & interpretations for plain statements. I don't want to BE WRONG after believing I WAS RIGHT my entire life. BUT it's not about ME. I am still in the process of exiting. God will restore the JOY of my SALVATION. I have to keep FOCUSED on JESUS with gratitude & praise! J9 | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6347 Registered: 9-2006 |
The spiritual hold is only on un-repented Adventists. John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. Begin to confess that Gods word is true, the Lord is not weak that he cannot save and deliver those who desire it. Just tell Jesus that he has made you free just as the word says. Say something like, "Jesus I believe your word, that you have made me free." Say it every day if you have too, this is no formula, confessing Gods word as truth, is truth. Thank him humbly for the atonement for your sin. Don't make excuses, just do it. Begin to let his word have place in your life. I believe the Lords word that he has made you free J9, all you have to do is walk out in that freedom. There was a gorilla kept in a cage for years, he wasn't allowed to leave at all, and he withstood the cruelty imposed upon him, but when someone finally opened his cage, he had been imprisoned so long that he would not pass the door to his cage. I know a state prisoner who has been in prison since he was a young boy, I told him I know people who can help him to prepare for a parole hearing, even though he has a life sentence. Yet he told me he did not want to come out, he has been institutionalized. Many adventists are like this, they have been made free, but they have trouble passing through that door, even though the door is open. God has set you free forever from Adventism, you are not in the process of exiting, when God sets you free, its not a process, It is finished, and the word says you are free. River | ||
| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thank you River. Thank you. I will confess that Gods word is true. I am free. It is finished. Thank you Jesus for the atonement for my sin. No excuses. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6348 Registered: 9-2006 |
You see J9, all it is, is learning what should have been taught you as a child or young person growing up, in other words you are having to relearn. An example might be a person who has been in a coma for 20 years, then wakes up. The gas pumps have changed, and you no longer know how to pump the gas, there are self check out in the grocery store, but you don't know how to check out the grocery's. After a short time though you will learn. Adventist is like a coma, then God wakes you up, and all of a sudden you can see, hear, and think. You are not in the process of coming out of the coma, you are awake. If you watch, people will say on the forum, 'I could suddenly see the word'. Your not in the 'process' of being saved and your not in the 'process' of coming out of Adventism. As soon as you saw, 'it is finished', you were no longer an Adventist. When God sets you free, it is complete. He don't say you're free, so come right this way, and watch your step. You're not only free, but free indeed. Indeed means certainly, in reality. A synonym would be 'without a doubt, undeniably, to be sure. Now all you got to do is learn the ropes of being free, He will teach you, if he cared enough to set you free, don't you think he cares enough to take care of you? Sit at his feet, and learn from his word. Holy Spirit will get you straight, trust him as he leads. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6349 Registered: 9-2006 |
I think we got to change this word 'processing out' to 'learning at his feet' or something. Every time somebody says 'processing out' I'm going to go into my snake pit routine! I like the way one former put it, 'We leave Egypt tonight! And by cracky he left! River | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 2449 Registered: 8-2004 |
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| 1john2v27nlt Registered user Username: 1john2v27nlt Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2009 |
I am realizing that I can't be double-minded or half(bifurcated)hearted. I must be single-minded & wholehearted for God. In the past I thought I was these things. I AM enjoying sitting at HIS feet & learning from His word as the HS teaches me. Just this morning I found this scripture - Is 42:6 'I will give You as a covenant to the people.' There it is, another piece of the picture - Jesus is our REST, the new covenant, our inheritance. BTW thanks for the laugh (your snake pit routine) which is deadly serious of course. And the pithy statement 'We leave Egypt tonight!' And by cracky he left! Both are memorable & keep the key thought there with humor. | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1084 Registered: 3-2009 |
Keep it up, River. This is really good. The illustration of the coma hit just the right spot for me. I'm out, not in the process of coming out, but I'm still learning the ropes. Another illustration could be a person who comes from a third world country to the USA. He took the plane and left his/her country. Landed here. He is not in the process. He left. He arrived. But, oh my, he finds all these stores, places, gadgets, etc. that he/she has never seen before and finds himself lost. He has to relearn to live. The things he did before won't work anymore. That's one reason why he needs fellowship with people from the USA so he can become "socialized", so he can learn how to live like an American. Thanks, River for your illustrations and care. It makes it easier for me to understand certain things I'm going through. Hec | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6352 Registered: 9-2006 |
Your illustration is better than I could come up with Hec, Colleen said it well on another thread where she was talking about study groups, " They are simply the small group Bible study for local formers where they can do inductive Bible study and re-train their brains into a biblical worldview. They also attend Christian churches where they hear the Word taught." Thats it, retraining of the brain by practicing inductive Bible study. Worshiping and study with other evangelical Christians I think would also help tremendously, I think Colleen might agree with that. Observing other Christians in their Sunday to Sunday ways will help. Its really sudden when we become borned again, then the training begins whether you are xsda or what. I think this forum can be highly useful where you don't have the luxury of having former study groups, because it is interactive, you can ask questions, ask for special prayer (never ever minimize the importance of asking for prayer) You know, if yer down yer down, if yer up yer up, it is a safe place to come and talk it out. But just like any other group where Christians gather, we won't know you need help, or prayer, or anything else unless you tell us. River |
