| Author | Message | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1087 Registered: 3-2009 |
When did the disciples receive the Spirit?
VS.
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| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 8256 Registered: 3-2004  |
Reading these two texts it appears to me the Holy Spirit was given to them in the first text. In the text in Acts they were give the ability to speak in other languages. Diana L | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6353 Registered: 9-2006  |
They received the Holy Spirit when he breathed on them, just like we receive the Holy Spirit when he breathes on us, being breathed on to everlasting life. Or, everlasting life being breathed into us. They received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (Ghost) at Pentecost. and all were able to speak to God in tongues. Thats what I been trying to tell you all just forever. But you're too stubborn and blind to see it. Being breathed upon to everlasting life is salvation, read how God breathed on man in the beginning, and gave him life. The Holy Spirit is the same spirit that moved upon the waters of the deep, he didn't give Adam and Eve Artificial respiration. The difference between the two, salvation and Pentecost, one is for everlasting life, the second is empowerment to minister, too witness for him. The apostles were'nt sitting in the bleachers looking on, they were getting the same thing everybody else got. Now that was an all day camp meetin' with dinner on the ground! Now I know yer gonna hammer me, but unless you try to make the Bible say something that is more suitable to you, thats all your ever going to get out of it, at least in concept. Jesus is the restoration, what man lost in Adam, he gains in Christ, everlasting life 'It is finished.' Its all about restoration, tongues allows us to talk with God in the cool of the day again. Adam lost it the privilege, Jesus restored the privilege. Restoration. The last bastion of excuse people come up with, is that they glibly quote Corinthians I 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But Paul is addressing the church at Corinth on the super natural gifts he refered to in ICor. 12:10. See your not reading the last part, do all interpret? The two go together like butter and cream. The supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit he's talking about in ICor.12:10 works like this in the body of Christ, One person speaks in tongues, then one person interprets that tongue, and both are a super natural manifestation of the Holy Spirit. In other words, in that manifestation, it take two to complete the job. Now look at the verse you always us as an excuse. Do all speak with tongues, do all interpret? No man can bring a message from God in tongues to the church, and no man can interpret that message, unless by super natural means. Now you all howl day after day about context, yet when it comes to that, you slice and dice context like you were cutting up a batch of carrots. You go right to that verse tongue in cheek, and grin like a mule eating saw briers. You can try to pull an "I gotcha on me, but you cannot work around the Holy Spirit, nor his word to us. Trying to work around the word and manipulate it to suit our notions just don't cut it. Now you can hollor division, division, but its dang funny the only division is from the objectors, those who haven't been obedient. The Lord said,"Wait right there'. In other words don't go scattering until you receive what I am going to give you, and what did he give them? Power to witness, to preach the word in power, now our own power, but power in the Holy Spirit. He will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. He shuts a fire up in your bones, and you burn with his word. Hey! I'm not causing division here, I am just preaching the word of God, if you divide over it that's your hard luck then ain't it? Ok, yall can let the hammer down now, stick a fork in me, I'm done. By the way Hec, you do ask some very good question, you keep me on my toes and in the word. Thank you. This post is not to you in particular, its too the general outback.  Now yall have a fine day. River You can minister without receiving the baptism, but your ministry will be flattern a Ihop pancake. River | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 1564 Registered: 11-2007  |
I remember when I caught that verse about the disciples receiving the Spirit... always been taught no one received the Spirit till Pentecost. | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 389 Registered: 1-2007  |
River said "You can minister without receiving the baptism, but your ministry will be flattern a Ihop pancake." I guess I am one flat pancake, I have never experienced a tongue of fire coming over my head. My teaching and preaching is straight from the Bible. ;) Paul | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6357 Registered: 9-2006 |
Paul, you say you teach straight from the Bible, where in the Bible does it say that tongues of fire were coming from over their head? River P.S. if I see tongues of fire coming outa your noodle, don't worry, I got a big fire extinguisher, and I'll do my best to save your eyebrows. Ha! | ||
| Pnoga Registered user Username: Pnoga Post Number: 390 Registered: 1-2007 |
Sorry River, the tongues, like flames of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them Acts 2:3, sorry not on their heads literally. Thanks for putting out the fire coming out of my noodle quick draw mcgraw ;) Paul (Message edited by pnoga on June 22, 2010) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 2005 Registered: 10-2002  |
Just dropping on my way to bed by after watching South Africa restore some pride versus France... River hit something there. Jesus said at the end of Luke & beginning of Acts to stay in the city until they had been clothed with power from on high. Although they had received the Spirit (and with Him specifically they received the profound gift and ministry of forgiveness) they had not yet been "clothed with power from on high." Perhaps there is a parallel to this in the book of John. First Jesus said that the water He gives would well up to salvation. Then later He said that the Spirit would be streams of living water flowing out of us. The first is in us, and the second one flows out of us. (This is a convenient way to think of it, but I'm not going to be strict about this parallel.) River, you are right about the baptism of the Spirit sometimes being separate from the first receiving of the Spirit. However you're wrong about people here being too stubborn and blind to see it. The roots of over-theologizing the Holy Spirit are the same as the roots of cessationism: a plain fear that because it hasn't happened to me, I may be somehow missing something... and if I'm missing something that big, then I might be missing something more. The fear is very real and creeps powerfully in-between one's assurance of closeness to God. As a result people systematize and mathematize their salvation to prove to themselves (and others, but mainly to themselves) that they are saved. This is especially difficult for Former Adventists. The fears that we had in Adventism are rooted very deep and do not go away even though we embrace "correct theology". The easiest thing to happen instead is that we go deeper and deeper into theology and become junkies on it in an unconscious effort to convince away our inner fears leftover from Adventism, which haven't disappeared. Instead of having "works" or Sabbath-keeping or being a faithful Ellenist, the attempt to secure salvation (to convince one's heart) is sought through intellectual understanding of correct things. This doesn't actually fill the void, however, which is why many go deeper and deeper into theology and things liked systematic Reformed formulas that stretch certain scriptures and completely ignore or effectively rewrite others. The scriptures are written perfectly and don't need to be stretched. God did not intend for us to make salvation a mathematical equation. He wants relationship with us, not for us to pass a written Salvation 101 test. Salvation is not based on our understanding or possessing a certain minimum amount of correct theological information. Salvation by faith is based on the response of a heart to God's call to rest in Him. I've mentioned before the difficulty that has come because of Pentecostals who have gone around saying people don't have power (or in some cases aren't saved) because they don't speak in tongues. If nothing else, God is calling Pentecostals to repent for getting in the way of His people receiving His Spirit, because instead of stirring up peoples' hunger for Him this often does the exact opposite. And although the gifts of the Spirit are real, there are too many Pentecostals & Charismatics who suffer from the exact same insecurity that the theology addicts suffer from. Just as theology becomes an unconscious "measure" which I can look at to know I'm saved, in the same way the same thing is often done with "the gifts of the Spirit" among Pentecostals & Charismatics. Which is what this picture is about: http://art-for-jesus.blogspot.com/2009/12/christ-alone.html It's for a church we've been to here where the Spirit of God moved powerfully. Moved. He moved through and in peoples' bodies. People knew the manifestations of the Spirit, but they still feel very, very alone. They still feel unclothed by love. Although God's presence is there and they're worshiping Him beautifully and crying out to Him and He loves & receives it, at the same time they're feeling very alone. And because they're feeling alone, He feels alone, too. And on top of that, everyone is expecting to hear from Him through the preaching, through the "church service", and through the gifts coming through the occasional person on the platform. Christ feels alone there because people don't make room for Him to speak. It's locked into playing "church". Most churches are this way. But at this one it's much more painful and the pain is louder simply because of the degree in which the Spirit has moved there before, and because of His nearly tangible presence during worship and "ministry". It makes the loneliness even more difficult. But they don't know what to do, so they go on doing what they've done before and inside they're lonely, and Christ wants to let them know He's right there waiting to hold them, cry with them, and talk to them. For all the "ministry" done with the "gifts" of the Spirit, there is often too little actual communication done with God. Things are still locked into "church service" and coming through the "minister". It's like "Sabbath" -- everyone expects the best and most special blessing & closeness with God to come at this special time. And that becomes the heart and center of "church"... and in the process people don't simply talk and listen to God or learn how to do that. And they don't talk and listen to each other much, either. Everybody has their measuring stick by which try to prove to their inner fears that they are saved and close to God: Adventists try to use the Law and EGW. Theology-focused and Reformed-focused try to use intellectual understanding (correct doctrines and/or systematic theology). Pentecostals try to use the manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit. (For the latter, the easy way to bring this emptiness to the surface into plain view is to ask why one sees so many miracles, etc., in Acts but doesn't see them today. The question isn't exactly framed right, but it provokes the empty spot out of its hiding, and from there instead of finding an equation or new thing people need to know in order to "do" the miracles, what should happen is that we simply take our fear to God and ask Him why. And let Him answer instead of supplying it ourselves!) None of these things put our fears to rest. We have an emptiness inside that we're afraid of facing, but that's the exact thing we need to do. Face it and ask God to come in there. And He will witness to us that we belong to Him. And we'll know it from the inside out. The Spirit will witness to our spirit, because it is the Spirit that witnesses to us that we belong to God. Jesus said that's what He would do -- show us that He's in us and we're in Him. Some Pentecostals would say, "See, it's the Spirit!" but by that they mean the often external measuring stick of speaking in tongues or feeling the baptism of the Spirit. It's not always that. It's deeper than that. Paul said in Romans 8:16 that the Spirit witnesses with our spirit. In other words, in the deepest place inside you, God's Spirit will speak to you -- in your spirit. Sometimes God will do this through understanding a truth. Sometimes He'll do it with a feeling. Sometimes He'll do it by showing you that you keep Christ's law of love (and if anyone thinks I mean the "Ten Commandments" by that I'm going to smack them right now!). But the main thing is that He will do this by His Spirit and it will be known in your spirit, in a place in you deeper than anyone else will know. Just as I can't see your spirit and you can't see mine, ultimately the person who "knows" and "hears" this best is going to be the person him/herself. (On a side note: people who think "soul" and "spirit" are the same thing are committing the exact same error as people who think "spirit" and "breath" are the same thing... the former error equates "spirit" with the physical, and the latter equates "spirit" with the intellectual. Both errors are made because an agenda is usually unconsciously already set -- protecting from having to face that fear that there might be something more that I don't understand or don't have.) Okay, I don't know exactly where I'm going with this, but I just want to say that you know what, if your (anybody's) arguments or points are not being received and you think the other people are being stubborn, take a step back for a minute and talk to God about it. Here at FAF and as "Formers" in general we all tend to focus on arguments, on theology, on getting the points and facts right as if finding the magic formula will produce the results. And maybe we intellectually know it's a "spiritual battle" and not an intellectual one, but then we keep going on arguing intellectually. And we do pray, but do we spend time listening? And more telling, are we able to resist correcting someone when they say something wrong? Can we keep silent for a minute and let the Spirit set their inaccuracy aside so that we can see what's really going on in their hearts? Underneath the arguments of the most seemingly hardened and stubborn folks you'll find precious, frightened children who have never known what they appear to be rejecting. No matter how stubborn, eloquent or educated the arguments may look, the choice to reject something that would actually help them is almost always rooted in a deep, deep fear. (There are a few cases, however, where the fear gave way to pride and they don't want to be wrong or show lack of "resolve" to "stay the course". But these are lesser than the cases of plain fear.) It is best to ask the Spirit about each person and ask Him to show the roots of things. Rarely is the root "theology" or the actual intellectual beliefs/doctrines being discussed. There are deeper "hooks", or deeper "rudders" which are steering the ships. This is easily noticeable in Adventism because one of the primary characteristics of Adventism is its innovativeness, inventiveness, its creativity in coming up with explanations to hold onto the beliefs that have been passed down despite plain evidence that the foundation is badly laid and about to collapse. Part of every Adventist's experience is learning to come up with one's own explanations about why the Sabbath is important, how to keep it, how much health message should be obeyed, what place EGW's writings have, why certain writings can be ignored, etc. Every Adventist learns to do these things in one degree or another, even those who think they strictly adhere to Biblical rules or EGW rules. Because of this Adventists by nature learn to become very creative thinkers and there is an incredible variety of sometimes extensively-described explanations of what are essentially personal opinions about what is important and necessary to do, etc. This creative explaining comes about simply because what has been passed down (SDA beliefs) does not harmonize with what is in the Bible (and what EGW said in one place does not harmonize with what she said elsewhere). The whole need to do this intellectual exercise (coming up with excuses) is because the "rudders" under the surface have already been set to aim at things like "Sabbath". All of the explanations and theologies above the surface are just the fruits of the creative thinking (rationalizing). The real driving thing is what has been set under the surface. The arguments above the surface aren't what's steering the ship. This is why arguing the things of Adventism often bears little fruit compared with the amount of energy we tend to put into it. When we argue, we're just looking at the things above the surface. We might knock one down, but another one comes up from below decks to take its place. Underneath it all, the rudder is still set in the same direction. The important issues aren't the things on the surface, but what's happening (happened) below decks. The important thing is how the rudder is set and *why* it is set that way. If we pray and listen to God guiding us to that (and resist doing battle with the people on the surface), I believe things will change in several ways. The one thing that will change things the most, however, is if we value the *person* more than the person's correctness or incorrectness. If we spend ourselves trying to prove their slavery to them, we'll just get more and more frustrated and will end up giving more attention to the "issue" of slavery than to their heavy hearts. People are in slavery but can't see it or seem to choose it, but if we exert our energy on proving the "slavery" to them we'll miss the burdens that their hearts are carrying. Above all their burdens need carrying. The incorrect beliefs are often the causes of burdens, however, if they can't it right away, it's good to ask God how we can spend ourselves carrying *other* burdens they have, which in His time will end up helping them see the ones they didn't know they had. Probably the defining characteristic I've noticed in all of my time here as a "Former" is that we care about truth. This is good and bad. It's good to care about truth. But we often care about truth more than we do *people*. This is plain to see when we can't let one little inaccuracy pass in conversation without correcting it, and often accusing or challenging the other person over it. It shows up often even louder in our online dialogues with people still in Adventism. We try to tell them everything! We come at them full throttle. And when we hear of some new Adventist rationale or innovation which perverts the truth, we get oh-so-offended and incredulous about it and talk to each other incessantly about it and how horrible it is, how horrible Adventism is, etc. We're focused on the truth. On that and the untruth. We look at peoples' arguments instead of waiting to hear their hearts. And when we respond to them (usually in debate), we respond to their arguments -- their outer defenses -- instead of waiting to hear their hearts. So we get frustrated when their outer defenses hold on for a long time. Our unconscious goal is breaking down their wall instead of embracing the hurt child within. We end up caring more about their wall than them themselves. This is a challenge to myself and all of us to ask God for the gift of being able to be quiet and let an incorrectness pass in order that we may hear their heart, see the "rudder" (fear) under the surface that is driving the ship, and above all care more about the person than their accurate speaking about the truth. And it's a challenge to Pentecostals to talk to the Holy Spirit more and listen to Him even more than that! I don't think Pentecostals are into the Spirit too much. They're not into Him enough! They're into His gifts, His manifestations. They're into His hands instead of into His heart. So they need to talk to Him and listen to Him and get to know His heart more than anything else. Bedtime. Beyond bedtime. Bless you all in Jesus' name! Ramone (Message edited by agapetos on June 22, 2010) | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 566 Registered: 2-2003  |
Hec, back to your original question. There are various views on this in "theological circles" - ha! One is that John has a completely different theology from the Synoptic Gospels, and this is his version of "Pentecost" - i.e. the disciples received the Spirit here when Jesus breathed on them, and that is it! Number two is that this is a prophetic symbol, and Jesus was showing the disciples how they would receive the Spirit when He finally did show up at Pentecost, as breathing in, or as wind, and when it happened, this is what they did. A third version is, as River has pointed out (I think), that the disciples were "born again" at this point and then "baptised in the Holy Spirit" later, on the day of Pentecost. I guess each version has something to say, but my own view is that the third is the most likely, as I personally agree with River, that the Bible definitely does distinguish between the new birth by the Holy Spirit and the baptism - and this is not just "baptism into the body of Christ" (I Cor 12:13), although this is involved, it is endowment with power from on high. Of course, as I have been speaking in tongues for 30 years now, and Jesus has never done me any harm because of this, or led me astray, I do tend to think it may well be significant or important. Having never been SDA, I don't know your hangups, I just urge you to trust! By the way, besides Serbs, Croats, and Romanians, are there any Hungarian ex-es out there??? Adrian By the way, River, I love your paralell with the creation story, that is totally awesome. So much for the body + breath version, heh? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6358 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well Ramone, that was good brudder, but it kind of messes up my drill Sargent routine, don't you think? I guess now I'll have to go back into my snake pit routine,or my Possum leg routine since you seemed determined to mess that one up. Good nite, sleep tight, and don't let the bedbugs bite. River | ||
| Broniba Registered user Username: Broniba Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2010  |
Agapetos, thank you so much for writing that. Ever since I started on this journey, and even before, my desire to be truly a child of God has been marked by striving. I've been so scared that I'd miss truth and fall into heresy again. I've been afraid often to comment because I didn't want to get it wrong -- I tend to be very sensitive. Your thoughts were a gracious way of explaining what a right focus should be. Thank you. | ||
| Angelcat Registered user Username: Angelcat Post Number: 157 Registered: 11-2008 |
River, do you believe everyone's gift is either speaking tongues or interpreting? Mine isn't either, at this point. I don't speak in toungues, and I don't understand when my friend. I beleive, at this point anyhow, that there are many different gifts. I went thru a 6 week seminar in the SDA church to find out what my spiritual gift(s) is/are. Still didn't know at the end. Knew it wasn't intercesion, as I can't pray publically, even in front of just one other person. I was told it was helps, meaning basically I did whatever the people with more important gifts told me to do. Turns out intercession is my gift, it just isn't in a form adventists would recognize. It involves as much if not more listening than talking. And I still don't pray publically. Don't know if I ever will. I don't aspire to speak in tongues. 2 years ago, I thought it was always from the devil, unless it was the adventist version of tongues, and i never thought i'd change my mind. Then my good friend and spiritual mentor told me she had the gift of tongues. And I didn't freak out I knew God's voice well enough by then to know it was ok, or He'd have told me it wasn't. But I didn't see how it could be from God. So I went to reread the story in Acts. But as I went to open my Bible, God told me to NOT look up anything, but just to open the Bible wherever it opened. It opened to Corinthians, I think, the part about spiritual gifts. And I read as though for the first time, without Adventist goggles on, ( miracle in itelf, as i was still an Adventist at the time, with no plans to change). It didn't say what I'd been taught it said. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6360 Registered: 9-2006 |
Angelcat, An emphatic no! Its not a matter of what I believe though, its just not the case. Open your Bible and start at ICor 12:1 and start reading down, in verse one, Paul switches gears so to speak, so he says brothers, concerning spiritual gifts. In other words he is going to teach the church on spiritual gifts. In verse four he says Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. Diversities means its diversified. Spiritual gifts got nothing to do with the devil, and Adventisms got nothing to do with Christianity, its a fake, but the devil has no place here, and there is no diffrent version of the same gift, and there is no people with more important gift than someone else. If God gave you a gift of intercession, that gift is just as important as the next mans gift or gifts. Now Paul starts at verse one to teach about the spiritual gifts and we need to keep it in context all the way through verse 31, where he again switches gears. Notice in verse 12:24 where Paul states emphatically that God has tempered the body together, that means that all these diversities of gifts make one whole body. None of the spiritual gifts function alone, so neither should a person say that one gift is more important to the body than another. However, your particular gift will seem very important to you. Now as you read down from verse one, Paul more or less finishes up on the diversities of gifts by saying, 'Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But he is still teaching about the spiritual gifts until he prepares to switch gears in verse 31, and where he says do all speak with tongues, do all interpret? He is referring to what he said in verse 12:10. Tongues and interpretation of tongue goes together for if a man who has the gift of tongues to bring a message in tongues, there is no way for us to know what that message is without an interpreter. In other words, we wouldn't know what the Holy Spirit is saying through that man or woman. Remember what he says about how God has 'tempered the body together? But being able to pray in tongues is not the same thing as these two gifts that go together. People make the mistake of taking verse 30 out of context when verse 30 goes with verse 10. I can't stress enough about keeping context, thats exactly the mistake that Adventism has made all along, teaching out of context. You can't teach out of context just because it suits your favorite whipping boy. So no, emphatically no, an absolute no, everyones gift is not either speaking in tongues or interpreting IN THIS CONTEXT. Now I don't like to use all caps, because it sounds like yelling on paper, and I am not by any means yelling, but I do want to specify that I am speaking in this context, because being able to pray and glorify God in tongues is not in this context, and if I taught on being able to pray and glorify God in tongues I would have to switch gears, leave this whole chapter and teach from the gospels, the old testament, and the book of acts, which I am not prepared to do. Its a long teaching and apart from a teaching on the spiritual gifts. You hang in there Angelcat, it'll all come with time, but its rather a long roe to hoe in doing all that relearning after exiting Adventism. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6361 Registered: 9-2006 |
Now I would like to get back to addressing Ramones post, because what I want to say goes right back to the spiritual gifts. After the hard preacher comes along, Ramone comes along and pours oil in the the wounds left by the hard preacher. I do want to say this. Both are necessary. It keeps the body tempered. Sometimes I know I hit people so hard that it jars their uncles eyeballs in China, then dear old Ramone comes along and says,'Did that mean old river hurt you? Here, let me put some salve on that ouwie. I saw Ramones gift a long time ago. I have been in the church a long time, and I've seen this happen time and time again, the body being tempered. Like the blacksmith who heats the metal red hot, hammers it on the anvil, then souses it into cold water. Both these actions temper the metal for use. River |
